Los Angeles has lined up record-cheap solar power. But there’s a problem

[laylalex 7,293]

I find this really disappointing -- while I am generally pro-labor union, I find the hold up very frustrating. I have many friends who get power from the DWP, and this could help their bills drop dramatically.

Quote

 

LADWP staff struggled to explain to the Board of Commissioners Tuesday why Local 18 had objected to the Eland project. The utility’s director of labor relations, Deitra Fernandes, said the union might be worried about the developer hiring out-of-state workers.

 

But 8minute spokesman Jeff McKay said the company plans to sign a Project Labor Agreement this week with IBEW Local 428 in Kern County, with the entire workforce coming from California.

 

Asked about the union’s opposition, an IBEW Local 18 spokesman sent a short emailed statement saying that LADWP “has not complied with its contractual obligations for this deal.” The statement didn’t provide details of how the utility hasn’t complied.

 

https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2019-08-27/los-angeles-solar-energy-storage-cheap

[Cyberfx1024 7,980]

5 minutes ago, laylalex said:

I find this really disappointing -- while I am generally pro-labor union, I find the hold up very frustrating. I have many friends who get power from the DWP, and this could help their bills drop dramatically.

https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2019-08-27/los-angeles-solar-energy-storage-cheap

I had a co-worker who lived in Palmdale whose bill was $350 a month when the whole town is surrounded by solar panels. Not to mention when I left in 2018 they were building fields of solar panels off the 14 last Mojave(probably these solar panels I saw being built). The only problem California has run into is that during the day they are a net exporter of electricity but there is no way to capture that energy on a large scale basis.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Cyberfx1024

[Boiler 45,665]

Their problem is that peak demand does not tie in with peak supply, and of course is seasonal so even more so in the winter

 

They really need Nuclear for their base load but that seems a no no.

[laylalex 7,293]

9 minutes ago, Cyberfx1024 said:

I had a co-worker who lived in Palmdale whose bill was $350 a month when the whole town is surrounded by solar panels. Not to mention when I left in 2018 they were building fields of solar panels off the 14 last Mojave(probably these solar panels I saw being built). The only problem California has run into is that during the day they are a net exporter of electricity but there is no way to capture that energy on a large scale basis.

What do you think about this though from the article?

 

Quote

In addition to 400 megawatts of solar power, the Eland project would include at least 200 megawatts of lithium-ion batteries, capable of storing solar power during the day and injecting it into the grid for four hours each night.

Does even four hours make a difference? I'm asking because you seem to know more about power than I do! 

[Boiler 45,665]

PV panels obviously are linked to the seasons and the sun which does not match demand. From memory for example they produce 3x more in Summer than in Winter. Certainly where I am peak energy demand is in winter (heat) I would imagine there are some places where it is very hot in the summer peak demand is the other way around.

 

So if you are going to use PV as your main energy source then you need massive back up and batteries are certainly currently expensive and just not suited for seasonal storage. 

 

Charging batteries in the day to smooth early evening peak is the next step, basically the low hanging fruit, batteries are not cheap and have longevity issues and their own carbon foot print.

 

So they mainly use Gas, so think of replacing a bit of gas. As they increase the level of PV the more complicated and the more expensive it reaches.

[Cyberfx1024 7,980]

11 hours ago, laylalex said:

What do you think about this though from the article?

Does even four hours make a difference? I'm asking because you seem to know more about power than I do! 

This honestly doesn't surprise me one bit because the LA DWP is so powerful in LA. They are so called worried about the workers jobs which I find to be BS. I think they are just worried that LA DWP will become extinct. The DWP is known to be corrupt and full of it. A couple years ago they found out that DWP has a huge slush fund for so called "training purposes" and LA politicians were up in arms wanting to find out what they spent the money on. That whole debacle went to court and quietly went away with no results. 

 

Also the worker thing is BS because other power agencies like SoCal Edison use workers based out of NV and AZ to help control costs. I have seen this first hand when Edison was restoring power to one of mountaintop sites in the Cleveland NF. They brought in some lineman they had out of AZ to do the job. Because it was easier paying AZ wages and per diem than having to deal with CA workers, pension and/or healthcare costs. 

 

 

4 hours would make a big difference because it would help cover the timeframe of 8-12pm or 9-1. Where people are at home or out either shopping, eating, and doing whatever. That time period draws a lot of power. 

Edited August 29, 2019 by Cyberfx1024

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

It’s a good thing those lithium batteries are good for the environment and don’t involve a metric butt-load of energy to produce.  

[Dashinka 24,596]

10 hours ago, laylalex said:

What do you think about this though from the article?

 

Does even four hours make a difference? I'm asking because you seem to know more about power than I do! 

Take the 200 and divide it by 24 to convert it to MWh, which is really the measure that is charged to consumers.  According to the article, this will be about 3-3.5% of the need for LA (~278 MWh).  Now the article said 6-7%, but I expected that was based on the 400 MW potential generating capacity.  The problem is that as @Boilersaid, peak demand and peak supply do not match, so it is really a question of how much energy (MWh) this project can continue to supply depending on the demand.  If let's say the demand is higher in the evenings due to the likes of battery electric vehicle charging, or home heating etc. this plant would only be able to supply the 8.3 MWh it is capable of, so other options would be needed to meet the grid demand.  Overall, I am fine with using a mix of sources, but again, I agree with @Boiler where nuclear should be seriously considered for base loads.

[Dashinka 24,596]

10 hours ago, Cyberfx1024 said:

This honestly doesn't surprise me one bit because the LA DWP is so powerful in LA. They are so called worried about the workers jobs which I find to be BS. I think they are just worried that LA DWP will become extinct. The DWP is known to be corrupt and full of it. A couple years ago they found out that DWP has a huge slush fund for so called "training purposes" and LA politicians were up in arms wanting to find out what they spent the money on. That whole debacle went to court and quietly went away with no results. 

 

Also the worker thing is BS because other power agencies like SoCal Edison use workers based out of NV and AZ to help control costs. I have seen this first hand when they the Edison was restoring power to one of mountaintop sites in the Cleveland NF. They brought in some lineman they had out of AZ to do the job. Because it was easier paying AS wages and per diem than having to deal with CA workers and their pension or healthcare costs. 

 

 

4 hours would make a big difference because it would help cover the timeframe of 8-12pm or 9-1. Where people are at home or out either shopping, eating, and doing whatever. That time period draws a lot of power. 

A bit off topic, but this is going on right here now with another powerful body.  It seems this is also related to slush funds supposedly earmarked for worker training.  The simply analysis is that unions in general are very socialistic/communistic where everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others.

 

Raids raise possibility of federal racketeering case against UAW

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/2019/08/29/raids-raise-possibility-federal-racketeering-case-against-uaw/2143405001/

[TBoneTX 45,536]

16 hours ago, Bill & Katya said:

Take the 200 and divide it by 24 to convert it to MWh, which is really the measure that is charged to consumers.  According to the article, this will be about 3-3.5% of the need for LA (~278 MWh).  Now the article said 6-7%, but I expected that was based on the 400 MW potential generating capacity.  The problem is that as @Boilersaid, peak demand and peak supply do not match, so it is really a question of how much energy (MWh) this project can continue to supply depending on the demand.  If let's say the demand is higher in the evenings due to the likes of battery electric vehicle charging, or home heating etc. this plant would only be able to supply the 8.3 MWh it is capable of, so other options would be needed to meet the grid demand.  Overall, I am fine with using a mix of sources, but again, I agree with @Boiler where nuclear should be seriously considered for base loads.

I not only feel powerless, but my head hurts.