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Republican Steve King: if not for incest and rape 'would there be any population left?'

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Filed: Timeline
41 minutes ago, Steeleballz said:

 

  Well I conceded in my reply to Bill that I understand they may require your wife to sign a waiver. Legally they can't require consent. They are covering their butts from a possible lawsuit, but it is an elective procedure, so they are not required to perform it if you don't comply with their demands. 

 

   I will revise my guarantee if you like. You don't need your wife's consent to have a vasectomy. If a doctor requires that your wife sign a consent form and you don't want to do that, find another doctor. It won't be that hard.

   

Fair enough.  I have no idea if that facility still requires spousal consent today.  And you cannot be expected to know what all doctors require for such.

 

But I think it IS rather hypocritical that I had to have her consent to get snipped, but she could get an abortion and never inform me.  Hopefully that has changed currently. 

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36 minutes ago, ALFKAD said:

Fair enough.  I have no idea if that facility still requires spousal consent today.  And you cannot be expected to know what all doctors require for such.

 

But I think it IS rather hypocritical that I had to have her consent to get snipped, but she could get an abortion and never inform me.  Hopefully that has changed currently. 

There is rightly NO requirement that a woman needs to inform her partner or spouse that she is seeking an abortion or has gotten one. There are any number of good reasons why this is the case -- abusive relationships are the most obvious situation -- but also a woman -- like a man -- has a right to control her own medical decisions about her own body. There is no law requiring a man to inform his spouse or partner, although some doctors can say it is required in their practice as @Steeleballz points out. To say that a woman needs to inform her partner/spouse of an abortion is to take her agency away. My understanding from my time volunteering as an escort is that there are several Supreme Court cases that have said that there is no requirement to seek permission OR to inform. 

 

Sorry, I feel very personally about this issue having worked with and supported women seeking abortions in very sensitive situations. 

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2 hours ago, ALFKAD said:

Fair enough.  I have no idea if that facility still requires spousal consent today.  And you cannot be expected to know what all doctors require for such.

 

But I think it IS rather hypocritical that I had to have her consent to get snipped, but she could get an abortion and never inform me.  Hopefully that has changed currently. 

If a doctor is asking for the wife's consent, I would seek out another doctor. There is no legal requirement for this, so this would all be about the doctor fearing a lawsuit or some other odd reason. Perhaps he has religious objections or feels uncomfortable at potentially causing 'marital strife' without the wife knowing.. but from a legal and medical standpoint consent is not required. From what I've just randomly browsed for you on the subject, some doctors just feel uncomfortable or fearful of a wrathful wife - one lawyer quoted from the CFRR stated:

Quote

'Doctors can impose requirements in a private setting in order to protect themselves legally. It’s their choice that they want to do that. While it would be pretty difficult for a wife to successfully sue a doctor for doing a vasectomy on her husband, it wouldn’t surprise me if their legal counsel insisted that they would be better off getting that consent. That said, nobody I know is imposing that kind of requirement."

From one publication at the NIH:

 

Quote

It is not a legal requirement to involve both partners in the decision-making and consent process. There is a widespread misconception that a wife must consent to her husband undergoing vasectomy. If, against a man's wishes, his wife is informed of and asked to consent to her husband's vasectomy, this can be regarded as a breach of medical confidentiality and an infringement of an individual's right to self-determination (i.e. autonomy).

Nevertheless, it is good practice to involve both partners if the male agrees.

 

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Filed: Timeline
2 hours ago, laylalex said:

There is rightly NO requirement that a woman needs to inform her partner or spouse that she is seeking an abortion or has gotten one. There are any number of good reasons why this is the case -- abusive relationships are the most obvious situation -- but also a woman -- like a man -- has a right to control her own medical decisions about her own body. There is no law requiring a man to inform his spouse or partner, although some doctors can say it is required in their practice as @Steeleballz points out. To say that a woman needs to inform her partner/spouse of an abortion is to take her agency away. My understanding from my time volunteering as an escort is that there are several Supreme Court cases that have said that there is no requirement to seek permission OR to inform. 

 

Sorry, I feel very personally about this issue having worked with and supported women seeking abortions in very sensitive situations. 

Happily married heterosexual couple. She wants to get her tubes tied.  Is it required for the husband to know to have the procedure done?

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9 minutes ago, ALFKAD said:

Happily married heterosexual couple. She wants to get her tubes tied.  Is it required for the husband to know to have the procedure done?

 The rules are exactly the same under the law. It is left up to the rules of the doctor's practice. If the doctor has a policy that makes you uncomfortable, then you don't see them.

 

My dad was recommended for a doctor and went to set up an appointment. They refused to see him unless he gave them an SSN. This is not the law but just a policy of that particular practice. They were so rude to him, that I went and got him an appointment with another doctor that same day, different practice - and they had no policy like that.

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12 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

 The rules are exactly the same under the law. It is left up to the rules of the doctor's practice. If the doctor has a policy that makes you uncomfortable, then you don't see them.

 

My dad was recommended for a doctor and went to set up an appointment. They refused to see him unless he gave them an SSN. This is not the law but just a policy of that particular practice. They were so rude to him, that I went and got him an appointment with another doctor that same day, different practice - and they had no policy like that.

Well, at the time, my choice was to use the hospital and comply with their rules, or keep me jewels intact.  I opted to follow their rules.

 

I'd hope a woman would tell her husband about choices such as BC, tubligations, or abortion.  To hide it from him, IMO, simply means she is willing to lie to him.

 

And if she will lie about one thing, she will be likely to lie about other things.  Not a very smart way to behave in a

relationship that (again, IMO) requires trust and honesty.   Glad I was never married to a woman who was willing to hide that sort of thing from me.

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8 minutes ago, ALFKAD said:

Well, at the time, my choice was to use the hospital and comply with their rules, or keep me jewels intact.  I opted to follow their rules.

 

I'd hope a woman would tell her husband about choices such as BC, tubligations, or abortion.  To hide it from him, IMO, simply means she is willing to lie to him.

 

And if she will lie about one thing, she will be likely to lie about other things.  Not a very smart way to behave in a

relationship that (again, IMO) requires trust and honesty.   Glad I was never married to a woman who was willing to hide that sort of thing from me.

As I mentioned before, there are sometimes good reasons for women not to disclose why they are using birth control, having abortions or getting tubal ligations (though it can be harder to hide the last of these, as it does require surgery where the other two don't necessarily). I don't argue that a strong marriage needs trust and honesty, but hiding this kind of stuff is symptomatic, I think, of a relationship that is already broken down. Personally, I was prescribed ultra low dose BC for a non-BC reason (acne). It doesn't take very long for hormones to go back to normal after stopping the pill, and when we were actively trying, I stopped taking the pill. I admit that at the very end of our marriage, I just kept taking them. I realized I didn't want a child with him, but honestly I was scared to tell him. He's a very charming but controlling person, and I was worried he would talk me out of it, again. He never laid a hand on me, for what it's worth, but there are other ways of terrorizing a spouse. 

 

Now, I can't imagine doing that with my fiance, and I have had and continue to have an open dialogue with him on what we plan to do. He knows that for me, if I do not want to have a child, and our BC fails for whatever reason, abortion is an option. He respects that decision, though he said he will reserve judgment on how he would actually feel about it until/if it actually happened. And we agreed that if such a thing happened, we would talk about it openly and honestly -- and I would listen to him if he disagreed with me. These are conversations I should have had with my ex before we married, but we were very young and I was so in love with him that I figured I would eventually warm up to the idea of being a mother. It didn't happen and I am grateful. 

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Don't get me wrong, I understand there are times when the option to do these things without a discussion can be a blessing.  But I'm not referring to those situations (those are bad marriages/relationships, and one should seek to be out of them post haste).  

 

I'm just saying in a good relationship, those things should be discussed and either agreed upon, or the relationship dissolved if not resolved.  I would not be able to get a vasectomy and hide it from my spouse.  Prior to remarriage, I made it VERY clear to my current wife that I had a vasectomy, did not want any more children, and would not get a reversal, ever.  If she wanted kids, I was the wrong guy for her.  That's the kind of up-front honesty I mean.  Having or not having kids can be a huge thing to people, and it would be unfair of me to not make my feelings clear on the matter (yes, I was older, and less prone to making those youthful mistakes I may have done way back when).

 

 

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52 minutes ago, ALFKAD said:

Well, at the time, my choice was to use the hospital and comply with their rules, or keep me jewels intact.  I opted to follow their rules.

 

I'd hope a woman would tell her husband about choices such as BC, tubligations, or abortion.  To hide it from him, IMO, simply means she is willing to lie to him.

 

And if she will lie about one thing, she will be likely to lie about other things.  Not a very smart way to behave in a

relationship that (again, IMO) requires trust and honesty.   Glad I was never married to a woman who was willing to hide that sort of thing from me.

Glad you weren't either. It's devastating.

 

53 minutes ago, ALFKAD said:

I'd hope a woman would tell her husband about choices such as BC, tubligations, or abortion.  To hide it from him, IMO, simply means she is willing to lie to him.

I sometimes wonder if it wouldn't be better if there were a consent requirement. Men have rights too, after all.

 

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“He’s in there fighting,” the president said. “Boris knows how to win.”

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Filed: IR-5 Country: England
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3 hours ago, laylalex said:

There is rightly NO requirement that a woman needs to inform her partner or spouse that she is seeking an abortion or has gotten one. There are any number of good reasons why this is the case -- abusive relationships are the most obvious situation -- but also a woman -- like a man -- has a right to control her own medical decisions about her own body. There is no law requiring a man to inform his spouse or partner, although some doctors can say it is required in their practice as @Steeleballz points out. To say that a woman needs to inform her partner/spouse of an abortion is to take her agency away. My understanding from my time volunteering as an escort is that there are several Supreme Court cases that have said that there is no requirement to seek permission OR to inform. 

 

Sorry, I feel very personally about this issue having worked with and supported women seeking abortions in very sensitive situations. 

You sort of talked around it, but is your ardent empathy for abortion based on personal experience? I ask because our own personal experiences sometimes influence our judgement and passions.

 

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“He’s in there fighting,” the president said. “Boris knows how to win.”

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11 minutes ago, Boris Farage said:

You sort of talked around it, but is your ardent empathy for abortion based on personal experience? I ask because our own personal experiences sometimes influence our judgement and passions.

And what if I had? Would that make me a monster? I see someone else in this thread posted that she had a termination, though she was married when that happened. I certainly never had an abortion while I was married, if that's what you're asking.

Edited by laylalex
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Filed: IR-5 Country: England
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5 minutes ago, ALFKAD said:

Clearly, you are NOT from this country...

Sadly this is a growing problem in England as well. Men are become second class citizens, everything we say or do is somehow sexist, and god forbid we hold a door for the fairer sex. Men lose child custody at abnormal rates and nobody blinks an eye. And don't even get me started on #metoo.

 

I saw some internet meme that said "strong women intimidate weak men." Imagine saying the reverse: "strong men intimidate weak women." You'd be stoned and run out of town. The double standard is very real, and men have gotten the short end of the stick.

 

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“He’s in there fighting,” the president said. “Boris knows how to win.”

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19 minutes ago, Boris Farage said:

Sadly this is a growing problem in England as well. Men are become second class citizens, everything we say or do is somehow sexist, and god forbid we hold a door for the fairer sex. Men lose child custody at abnormal rates and nobody blinks an eye. And don't even get me started on #metoo.

 

I saw some internet meme that said "strong women intimidate weak men." Imagine saying the reverse: "strong men intimidate weak women." You'd be stoned and run out of town. The double standard is very real, and men have gotten the short end of the stick.

You really think it's men who are the second class citizens in the US and in the UK? Really? I have lived in both places (as I mentioned to you yesterday separately) and that is NOT my experience. And it is NOT true that everything a man says or does is somehow sexist. Somehow my fiance manages to get through life without being called sexist, though I can't say that about him when he was younger. He has had time to grow up and learn that some of the sexist language he used about women (some of which is NOT suitable for this website) is unacceptable. Men can learn not to be sexist, just as women can learn that not everything that a man does out of common courtesy is not necessarily sexist. 

 

There is very much a double standard in place, yes, but it is not in the direction you state. Men still have the upper hand in our society and the patriarchy is very much a real thing that has an effect on women's day to day existence. How would you like it if the girl you're dating (assuming you did ask her out) told you that she'd been subjected to catcalls and nonconsensual touching and condescension on a day to day basis? Do these things happen to YOU on a day to day basis? They happen to women.

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1 hour ago, laylalex said:

You really think it's men who are the second class citizens in the US and in the UK? Really? I have lived in both places (as I mentioned to you yesterday separately) and that is NOT my experience. And it is NOT true that everything a man says or does is somehow sexist. Somehow my fiance manages to get through life without being called sexist, though I can't say that about him when he was younger. He has had time to grow up and learn that some of the sexist language he used about women (some of which is NOT suitable for this website) is unacceptable. Men can learn not to be sexist, just as women can learn that not everything that a man does out of common courtesy is not necessarily sexist.

If I were a woman, this is the point where I would say "You don't know me. You're not a woman. You have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman."

 

So... you don't know me. You're not a man. You have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a man. The responsibility to protect, provide, accommodate, and navigate the torturous social routes set forth for us by the fairer sex. One slip up and you're finished. Actually... it doesn't even take a slip up. It takes a vengeful female to make an accusation, and you're done. Because #metoo carries more weight now than "innocent until proven guilty." It is exhausting to be a man.

 

1 hour ago, laylalex said:

There is very much a double standard in place, yes, but it is not in the direction you state. Men still have the upper hand in our society and the patriarchy is very much a real thing that has an effect on women's day to day existence.

The patriarchy is mostly gone. Yes, there's the odd old boys club here and there, but the patriarchy has mostly-figuratively had its bollocks snipped. Because as I said, it takes one vengeful female to utterly destroy a man and his reputation. I do understand this is, and will be, a very unpopular opinion with some here, but it is most definitely my experience. I have seen it first hand.

 

1 hour ago, laylalex said:

How would you like it if the girl you're dating (assuming you did ask her out) told you that she'd been subjected to catcalls and nonconsensual touching and condescension on a day to day basis? Do these things happen to YOU on a day to day basis? They happen to women.

This is not male dominance. This is despicable behavior by despicable individuals. There are females who poison their children because they (the female) are starved for attention. I do not draw the conclusion that all women are bad mothers.

 

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“He’s in there fighting,” the president said. “Boris knows how to win.”

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