NATIONAL SECURITY Trump administration launches global effort to end criminalization of homosexuality

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

21 minutes ago, Unidentified said:

It's so cute that you sound so proud of yourself even though you clearly didn't read what I wrote. 

 

And I'm glad your friends are doing well because others aren't. 

Hey now, I responded one by one to at least three of what you said.  Don’t get upset at me because I came back with facts that counter what you believe.  I am not saying the US is a utopia, and everyone is treated fairly; heck, I have been treated unfairly as a white male more than once in life.  But overall, I think things are fairly darn good here.  

As for the church/marriage thing, are you saying that religions which do not believe in gay marriage should be forced to conduct them, just because a gay shows up and asks them to?

[beloved_dingo 1,932]

My issue with businesses refusing to perform services for a gay person is because they can say they are "standing up for their religion" or "it's a sin", etc but in that case you are treating the "sin" of homosexuality with extreme harshness compared to other "sins". According to Christianity, no one is without sin. I also take issue with it because members of the LGBT+ community face this kind of thing because their lifestyle becomes quite evident in circumstances where they want to do something like, buy a cake for their wedding. But if a straight atheist couple came in and asked for a wedding cake, they'd get it because they are straight and the store owner isn't going to even know they have beliefs that are "against their religion" or "sinful".

 

Recently there was a story about a woman who'd been getting her taxes done by the same lady for the past 5+ years, but this year the tax lady refused to do her taxes because the woman married her long-time girlfriend and wanted to file "Married filing jointly".

 

However I do not think a church should have to perform weddings or services that go against that particular church's doctrine. In this day and age there are more and more churches that will actually perform ceremonies for LGBT+ folks, but that should be at the discretion of the church imo. 

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

10 minutes ago, beloved_dingo said:

My issue with businesses refusing to perform services for a gay person is because they can say they are "standing up for their religion" or "it's a sin", etc but in that case you are treating the "sin" of homosexuality with extreme harshness compared to other "sins". According to Christianity, no one is without sin. I also take issue with it because members of the LGBT+ community face this kind of thing because their lifestyle becomes quite evident in circumstances where they want to do something like, buy a cake for their wedding. But if a straight atheist couple came in and asked for a wedding cake, they'd get it because they are straight and the store owner isn't going to even know they have beliefs that are "against their religion" or "sinful".

 

Recently there was a story about a woman who'd been getting her taxes done by the same lady for the past 5+ years, but this year the tax lady refused to do her taxes because the woman married her long-time girlfriend and wanted to file "Married filing jointly".

 

However I do not think a church should have to perform weddings or services that go against that particular church's doctrine. In this day and age there are more and more churches that will actually perform ceremonies for LGBT+ folks, but that should be at the discretion of the church imo. 

Good points.  But in your scenario, what if the cake maker DID learn they were atheist, which is contrary to his/her particular religion, and (s)he then refused to make it for them, just as (s)he would refuse the gay couple?  You say it’s not right to refuse the gay couple, and by default I assume you feel the same way about the atheist couple... but what about the religious beliefs of the baker?  I know it’s a fine line, but in the military, beards and (non-military) hats are not allowed, unless one is a Sikh or a muslim.  How is THAT fair to American soldiers?

[Steeleballz 7,550]

 

   Is it a sin to be an atheist?  I wouldn't want to go to hell just for that. 

 

   

[beloved_dingo 1,932]

8 minutes ago, ALFKAD said:

Good points.  But in your scenario, what if the cake maker DID learn they were atheist, which is contrary to his/her particular religion, and (s)he then refused to make it for them, just as (s)he would refuse the gay couple?  You say it’s not right to refuse the gay couple, and by default I assume you feel the same way about the atheist couple... but what about the religious beliefs of the baker?  I know it’s a fine line, but in the military, beards and (non-military) hats are not allowed, unless one is a Sikh or a muslim.  How is THAT fair to American soldiers?

I do think it's wrong to refuse the atheists as well, and that's kind of my point - if you refuse anyone that "goes against your religion" (aka "living in sin" or whatever) then either you'd have no business because everyone is sinful in one way or another, or you're discriminating because you're only refusing people who's sins are "obvious". 

 

Also I don't think facial hair etc is really a fair comparison. Allowing those men to have their hair a certain way or wear a particular hat allows them to express their beliefs but is not causing harm to others by doing so. Those other soldiers might grumble about it, but are they going to feel anguish over it? Are they going to walk in fear of being mistreated or feel like a lesser person? When gay people experience these things, it's more than just an inconvenience. It is a painful experience. It is being set apart as an unworthy "other". Blows my mind how many Christians seem to forget the example that Jesus lived by... He'd probably attend gay weddings and still turn the damn water into wine. 

[Steeleballz 7,550]

19 minutes ago, ALFKAD said:

Good points.  But in your scenario, what if the cake maker DID learn they were atheist, which is contrary to his/her particular religion, and (s)he then refused to make it for them, just as (s)he would refuse the gay couple?  You say it’s not right to refuse the gay couple, and by default I assume you feel the same way about the atheist couple... but what about the religious beliefs of the baker?  I know it’s a fine line, but in the military, beards and (non-military) hats are not allowed, unless one is a Sikh or a muslim.  How is THAT fair to American soldiers?

 

  American soldiers? Are the Sikh's and Muslims in the military not American soldiers?

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

1 minute ago, Steeleballz said:

 

  American soldiers? Are the Sikh's and Muslims in the military not American soldiers?

Not always Americans.  But even if they are USCs, how is it right to allow them something that most soldiers are forbidden from having?  

[beloved_dingo 1,932]

9 minutes ago, ALFKAD said:

Not always Americans.  But even if they are USCs, how is it right to allow them something that most soldiers are forbidden from having?  

Those soldiers have the same rights to express their religion. Just because these religious rights have different outward manifestations, doesn't mean they have "less rights". 

Edited February 22, 2019 by beloved_dingo

[beloved_dingo 1,932]

Religious practices are protected, your fave haircut is not 😋

[Steeleballz 7,550]

Just now, ALFKAD said:

Not always Americans.  But even if they are USCs, how is it right to allow them something that most soldiers are forbidden from having?  

 

    I'm pretty sure if you become a Sikh, they will allow you to wear a turban and keep your beard. Do you feel there was some religious exemption you were denied from having when you served?

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

20 minutes ago, Steeleballz said:

 

    I'm pretty sure if you become a Sikh, they will allow you to wear a turban and keep your beard. Do you feel there was some religious exemption you were denied from having when you served?

So if a christian soldier who believes that the gay lifestyle is against his religion is put into a room with a gay person, what protection does said christian have? Should (s)he be forced to room with, or be in the same foxhole with, a gay?

 

And no, I claimed no religion that would afford me a uniform exemption.  Just think it's not a two-way street.  One is allowed to behave differently based on religious beliefs than those around him.  Yet the cake maker is not allowed that freedom (or at least is having to fight for said freedom).

 

It seems like freedom of religion is held as a right, except when it comes to christians.  

 

 

[Steeleballz 7,550]

8 minutes ago, ALFKAD said:

So if a christian soldier who believes that the gay lifestyle is against his religion is put into a room with a gay person, what protection does said christian have? Should (s)he be forced to room with, or be in the same foxhole with, a gay?

 

And no, I claimed no religion that would afford me a uniform exemption.  Just think it's not a two-way street.  One is allowed to behave differently based on religious beliefs than those around him.  Yet the cake maker is not allowed that freedom (or at least is having to fight for said freedom).

 

It seems like freedom of religion is held as a right, except when it comes to christians.  

 

 

 

  Does the Christian religion say you can't share a room with a gay person? If it did you might have a point, but there is a difference between the tenets of a religion and one's personal beliefs. 

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

13 minutes ago, Steeleballz said:

 

  Does the Christian religion say you can't share a room with a gay person? If it did you might have a point, but there is a difference between the tenets of a religion and one's personal beliefs. 

Most religions tell followers to shun non-believers, and to avoid their ways.  Some even say it’s ok to kill those who do not believe the same way.  No religion that I am aware of speaks to sharing rooms with anyone else specifically, no.  

 

But whatever, didn’t mean to take this tangent.  The rules and laws when it comes to christianity  are are viewed in a different light than they used to I think.  Not saying it’s all a bad thing, but I do think the religious beliefs of some are being trod upon.

 

 

[Steeleballz 7,550]

6 minutes ago, ALFKAD said:

Most religions tell followers to shun non-believers, and to avoid their ways.  Some even say it’s ok to kill those who do not believe the same way.  No religion that I am aware of speaks to sharing rooms with anyone else specifically, no.  

 

But whatever, didn’t mean to take this tangent.  The rules and laws when it comes to christianity  are are viewed in a different light than they used to I think.  Not saying it’s all a bad thing, but I do think the religious beliefs of some are being trod upon.

 

 

 

  I guess that's why I was asking what specific exemption or exception should Christians have in the military that they don't currently have based on the tenets of the religion, and equivalent with what is available to other religions. It's fair to say there are none for anyone or it's fair to say exceptions are available to all religions. I think it's the latter, or at least moving that way.

[Voice of Reason 10,298]

37 minutes ago, Steeleballz said:

 

  I guess that's why I was asking what specific exemption or exception should Christians have in the military that they don't currently have based on the tenets of the religion, and equivalent with what is available to other religions. It's fair to say there are none for anyone or it's fair to say exceptions are available to all religions. I think it's the latter, or at least moving that way.

Prior to 2013, the only men allowed to have beards were those with facial hair issues or those who were severely disfigured.  And the only cover was that prescribed by each branch.

 

Today, Jews, muslims, and Sikhs are allowed their facial hair and particular headgear.  I guess that can be blamed on christianity not specifying type of facial hair or head covering,  though pretty much every picture I've ever seen of Christ depicts him with a beard.

 

Just read (due to our convo) that Sikhs seem to be moving away from the facial hair thing.  It seems many are finding the hair less attractive.