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Adam&Allison

What's everyones opinion on President Trump?

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1 hour ago, yuna628 said:

And what does the 'right' try to use to get people to vote their way I wonder...

Sorry but, there is nothing heroic in fighting for the confederacy. It was just plain wrong, like it or lump it. No one wants to believe that they were wrong in fighting for something I know... but I just respectfully disagree. The majority of my ancestors were abolitionists and believed in the founding principles of this country, but there was also a clear divide on my father's mother's side that were slaveholders and confederates. It was what provided them $s. There was nothing noble or heroic in that. I don't look upon them as honorable figures, I look at them with shame and sorrow for how far they fell. I've wrestled deeply at understanding their original origins and wondering how on earth they got themselves where a once-persecuted people could then be the persecutors themselves. And even though the confederacy is over, slavery is gone, there are civil rights... nothing changed too much in their more modern mindset either. When my grandparents from that side were alive they were still pretty horrible racists (I guess it would have freaked pop the hell out to know that his 2x grandfather was actually mixed-race likely illegit child/slave at some point..).

 

I guess my point is, people can try to coat the issue to feel better, or convince themselves that they ''were just doing what they thought was right''... but the right way was staring them in the face.

Yeah you say all this now with 150+ years of hindsight. You know hindsight is 20/20 right? Also you live in

 

But at that point in time when you are a poor farmer in the rural Confederacy the only news you got was maybe a weekly newspaper that was very biased towards the Southern cause and thus they weren't getting the full picture of anything. Have you ever heard of Yellow journalism? Not to mention that you thought it was your patriotic duty to go and join up for the Confederacy for the war against Northern Aggression. If you went to the Union to join up then your family at home was basically pariahs in the eyes of the community. 

 

Then later on in the war once it started going back young men who previously didn't join up were forcibly conscripted into the CSA. If they deserted from the Army or ran from a conscription notice, then you had deal with the roving gangs called the "Home Guard". 

 

So go on tell me how much you think you know since you said yourself you grew up outside of a Confederate state. I have done countless hours of research about my state and its role in the Confederacy, and how it shaped our future for decades to come. 

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10 minutes ago, Adam&Allison said:

 

Because if you went simply by the popular vote, in federal elections the candidates would simply campaign in major metropolitan areas, and tailor their policies around winning the vote in those cities. 

 

People in Iowa, Kansas, Nebraska, Idaho etc wouldn’t get a second thought. At least with the electoral college, even if the state only has a few electoral points - it’s still enough for candidates to try and claim those points. 

 

I think you’re right, there are definite issues with both ways of doing it - but in my opinion the electoral college gives a fairer view of the country as a whole over the popular vote. In the 2016 election, for instance, Hillary won the popular vote but you wouldn’t find many people who voted for her in middle America or the South. Even in PA, the state I live in, outside of Philadelphia - it’s mainly Trump county. 

Ya I wasn't saying the popular vote was "fair", they both have limitations.

 

In my view you should need to win both. In the event that you don't, we should hold a second vote with only the two leading candidates (exclude anyone else who was on the ballot). If you STILL don't win both counts, then we need to come up with a tie breaker.

 

As it is the electoral college "trumps" (no pun intended) the popular vote. That isn't fair either to people who live in the populated metropolises.

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3 hours ago, Cyberfx1024 said:

There are many people here in the South that still regard our ancestors as heroes fighting for what THEY thought was right at the time. So that's why there are groups like Sons of Confederate Veterans(SCV), I do not have to go any further about the KKK because they are repugnant. My ancestor fought in the Civil War for the Confederacy as poor farmer, he did not own any slaves at all but he still fought.

That's actually really cool. Thanks for sharing some of your family history. 

 

Ussually when we talk/argue in this type of format, generalizations are king. 

I'm sure there were alot of young boys who fought the war to help preserve their local economies. 

 

I assume the banning of their free labor force cost the southern States millions(or maybe billion.. idk). 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Keith & Arileidi said:

That's actually really cool. Thanks for sharing some of your family history. 

 

Ussually when we talk/argue in this type of format, generalizations are king. 

I'm sure there were alot of young boys who fought the war to help preserve their local economies. 

I assume the banning of their free labor force cost the southern States millions(or maybe billion.. idk). 

 

It did in the Deep South cost the rich Plantation owners probably billions in today's dollars worth of what they thought of as property. But in a large part of the South like Central NC, TN, the land wasn't suited for large farms like plantations and most of the landowners had smaller parcels. But this is not even thinking about the skilled tradesman that before were slaves and now freedmen competiting against white tradesmen. Some had niche trades where they made a good living while others had to move to the cities or the North/West in hopes for better opportunities. 

 

Sorry I love reading history no matter where it goes I love to read it. 

 

Edit. Smaller parcels of land usually meant farmers were mainly subsistence farmers 

Edited by Cyberfx1024
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8 hours ago, yuna628 said:

I don't think there is anything in this statement that is somehow a plus or excuse for our behavior in this country. It's sort of like saying ''but everyone else was doing it...'' type thing. There were plenty of other countries that ended slavery well before us, and some that pretended to take the high ground all the while still funding things behind the scenes (shameful UK). Focus on a few years? It was more than a few years. It was a critical period of history for this country and it's  still felt. If you do not learn from history, if you try to ignore it, or sweep it under the rug or shrug.. it will come back to bite you.

 

There was never any excuse for slaveholding or servitude in this country. We shouldn't have started it if we truly believed our founding principles. It is the greatest of shames that has stained us, and to some degree will never be erased.

Never said it was an excuse.  It is just a fact of life.  People were trading and selling slaves long before we were a country, and still do so today.  That’s also a fact.  If my math is correct, 1865 - 1776 = 89 years (give or take 5 years for residuals?).  89 is much less than hundreds (16th century until today).  And lest we forget who started that whole mess, Africans captured and traded their own kind in the beginning.  It’s not like the UK was invading Africa and stealing their women and children.

You say there was no excuse for slavery, and while I don’t disagree with you, it was NORMAL 200-400 years ago.  What we find appalling today was a means of survival back then.  Just as many other things we find distasteful today were (burning women for having orgasms, cutting out people’s tongues for talking back, medieval torture devices, genital mutilation - still ongoing; humans are vicious creatures).  But America is HARDLY the originator, nor a major participant in the overall scheme of things.  Google Arab slave trade if you want to get a sense of the reality of it all.

I am very glad we as a country have moved away from it, but in the overall scheme of things, a drop in a bucket.  Less than 400,000 compared to estimates as high as 17 million, or roughly 2%.  And of course, we have no way of knowing how accurate the estimates are.  But today, I’d say the slave trade in America is nil, while it is rampant in other countries.  

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5 hours ago, Keith & Arileidi said:

That's actually really cool. Thanks for sharing some of your family history. 

 

Ussually when we talk/argue in this type of format, generalizations are king. 

I'm sure there were alot of young boys who fought the war to help preserve their local economies. 

 

I assume the banning of their free labor force cost the southern States millions(or maybe billion.. idk). 

 

 

Parts of our history are abominable, and parts are downright cool.  Thankfully, we can sit here today and talk about it, and agree that we are in a better place than we used to be.  We can talk, agree, disagree, even drink or eat together, and no one is going to come after us.  Not perfect, is our country, but it’s the best one in which I have lived in my lifetime.

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