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12 hours ago, bcking said:

I've read the intelligence briefing multiple times, and have probably provided the link to it more times on here than anyone else. Many people seem to "forget" (willfully) the conclusion. Or believe it a "deep state conspiracy" that involves every intelligence agency. The summary: the Russian government tried to manipulate the election in their favour, which they considered to be getting Trump elected. Mueller isn't investigating whether that is true. The intelligence community has seen that as fact for awhile now.

 

If that's the case, any contact Steele had in Russia would NOT have been working for the Russian government. The information passed to Steele was not in support of a "get Trump elected" agenda. It was about members of Trump's campaign coordinating with Russia. Steele was hired by Fusion GPS as an independent contractor. Perfectly legal. Clinton's administration hired fusion GPS. Also nothing wrong with that. Steele was acting for himself, not for a foreign government. 

 

Whether or not Russia's influence actually did contribute to Trump's win is irrelevant. If you try to murder someone but fail, you're still in trouble. Furthermore, the fact that "everyone tries to influence each other's elections" is also irrelevant. The US has always made a stand against our enemies (or very loose allies...mostly Russia) trying to influence the political process in other countries. To whatever degree we do the same thing, we are being hypocritical. But we are hypocritical about A LOT of things. We want NK to denuclearise, but don't ask us about our nuclear arsenal. We are somehow "different" because we deem ourselves more "responsible" with our power. 

 

So bottom line we don't believe other countries should be actively influencing our "democratic" elections. That seems like a pretty basic thing that we should all agree on. If that's the case, a full investigation into what Russia did and who helped them/knowingly worked with them is highly relevant. Hence the investigation. An investigation into a single independent foreign contractor working for himself? Far less relevant and important.

I believe it was only 4 of the multitude of intelligence agencies we currently have in the US.  I for one would think the intelligence agencies would be cognizant of foreign influences, and I imagine it was not just Russia working to influence the election.  There is foreign spying occurring everyday in the US, and it is not all coming from our enemies.

 

Your conclusion that Steele's Russian contacts were not working for the government presupposes that Russia only wanted to get Trump elected of which there is no evidence.  Sure Russia wanted to sow discord in the election, but there is no evidence they wanted Hillary over Trump, just political chaos in the US which is exactly what we are getting with these narratives being spread by the media and the lackluster Mueller probe.  In fact, I believe actions of the 13 Russian people and companies Mueller indicted were actually doing things on both sides relative to sensationalized news.  Btw, you see no issues with a campaign materially working with a foreign entity/actor/agent/contractor with payments laundered via many hands to try and conceal the action itself?  Maybe this is also just like attempted murder?

 

Your comparison of attempted murder to this overall is just baffling.  Information spreading, some true, some not with respect to an election is in no ways close to a criminal offense, otherwise we would be going after a lot of the biased media sources from inside and outside the US for their reporting.  Of course this is not going to happen since we have freedom of the press laws, which appears to be what was taken advantage of by Russia and who knows what other counties.

 

As to your last point, maybe the US should practice what it preaches with respect to the UK, Ukraine, Israel, etc., etc., etc.  I am fine with having an independent prosecutor when there is an actual crime alleged, otherwise, let these US intelligence agencies do their jobs and try to do their best to combat foreign influence in our elections in the future.  What we have now is a complete waste of money making a lot of sleazy attorneys a lot of money. 

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34 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

I believe it was only 4 of the multitude of intelligence agencies we currently have in the US.  I for one would think the intelligence agencies would be cognizant of foreign influences, and I imagine it was not just Russia working to influence the election.  There is foreign spying occurring everyday in the US, and it is not all coming from our enemies.

 

Your conclusion that Steele's Russian contacts were not working for the government presupposes that Russia only wanted to get Trump elected of which there is no evidence.  Sure Russia wanted to sow discord in the election, but there is no evidence they wanted Hillary over Trump, just political chaos in the US which is exactly what we are getting with these narratives being spread by the media and the lackluster Mueller probe.  In fact, I believe actions of the 13 Russian people and companies Mueller indicted were actually doing things on both sides relative to sensationalized news.  Btw, you see no issues with a campaign materially working with a foreign entity/actor/agent/contractor with payments laundered via many hands to try and conceal the action itself?  Maybe this is also just like attempted murder?

 

Your comparison of attempted murder to this overall is just baffling.  Information spreading, some true, some not with respect to an election is in no ways close to a criminal offense, otherwise we would be going after a lot of the biased media sources from inside and outside the US for their reporting.  Of course this is not going to happen since we have freedom of the press laws, which appears to be what was taken advantage of by Russia and who knows what other counties.

 

As to your last point, maybe the US should practice what it preaches with respect to the UK, Ukraine, Israel, etc., etc., etc.  I am fine with having an independent prosecutor when there is an actual crime alleged, otherwise, let these US intelligence agencies do their jobs and try to do their best to combat foreign influence in our elections in the future.  What we have now is a complete waste of money making a lot of sleazy attorneys a lot of money. 

It was produced and reported by ODNI. ODNI is the director of the "United States Intelligence Community" which has 16 members. ODNI speaks for them, and then the report also includes the CIA, FBI and NSA (Not one of the three under the ODNI umbrella).

https://www.dni.gov/index.php/who-we-are

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Intelligence_Community#Members

 

https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf

 

"We assess Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered an influence campaign in 2016 aimed at the US presidential election. Russia’s goals were to undermine public faith in the US democratic process, denigrate Secretary Clinton, and harm her electability and potential presidency. We further assess Putin and the Russian Government developed a clear preference for President-elect Trump. We have high confidence in these judgments.

 We also assess Putin and the Russian Government aspired to help President-elect Trump’s election chances when possible by discrediting Secretary Clinton and publicly contrasting her unfavorably to him. All three agencies agree with this judgment. CIA and FBI have high confidence in this judgment; NSA has moderate confidence.

 Moscow’s approach evolved over the course of the campaign based on Russia’s understanding of the electoral prospects of the two main candidates. When it appeared to Moscow that Secretary Clinton was likely to win the election, the Russian influence campaign began to focus more on undermining her future presidency.

 Further information has come to light since Election Day that, when combined with Russian behavior since early November 2016, increases our confidence in our assessments of Russian motivations and goals."

 

If you'd like to provide evidence against their assessment, go ahead. I'd be curious to know what your intelligence contacts are. But if you want to remain willfully ignorant on the subject, then there really isn't much we can talk about.

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1 minute ago, Nature Boy Flair said:

The every intelligence agency lie started by Hillary was disproved long time ago 

The intelligence came from the FBI, CIA and NSA. The report was published by ODNI, which represents 16 additional members of the intelligence community.

 

Though next to those 3, do we really care that much about the "National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency"? Even if you do, the Director of National Intelligence, whose office produced the report, represents that agency along with 15 others.

 

Time to think of another "lie"...

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24 minutes ago, bcking said:

It was produced and reported by ODNI. ODNI is the director of the "United States Intelligence Community" which has 16 members. ODNI speaks for them, and then the report also includes the CIA, FBI and NSA (Not one of the three under the ODNI umbrella).

https://www.dni.gov/index.php/who-we-are

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Intelligence_Community#Members

 

https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf

 

"We assess Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered an influence campaign in 2016 aimed at the US presidential election. Russia’s goals were to undermine public faith in the US democratic process, denigrate Secretary Clinton, and harm her electability and potential presidency. We further assess Putin and the Russian Government developed a clear preference for President-elect Trump. We have high confidence in these judgments.

 We also assess Putin and the Russian Government aspired to help President-elect Trump’s election chances when possible by discrediting Secretary Clinton and publicly contrasting her unfavorably to him. All three agencies agree with this judgment. CIA and FBI have high confidence in this judgment; NSA has moderate confidence.

 Moscow’s approach evolved over the course of the campaign based on Russia’s understanding of the electoral prospects of the two main candidates. When it appeared to Moscow that Secretary Clinton was likely to win the election, the Russian influence campaign began to focus more on undermining her future presidency.

 Further information has come to light since Election Day that, when combined with Russian behavior since early November 2016, increases our confidence in our assessments of Russian motivations and goals."

 

If you'd like to provide evidence against their assessment, go ahead. I'd be curious to know what your intelligence contacts are. But if you want to remain willfully ignorant on the subject, then there really isn't much we can talk about.

So an office headed by the disgraced James Clapper came up with a report in a few months that you actually take as evidence?  Interesting the Mueller probe that has been in effect for over a year hasn't come to the same conclusion.  You do realize that intelligence folks are actually trained to lie and spread their own narratives, and it was quite clear that the outgoing administration had a general strategy to undermine a duly elected president even before he took office.

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18 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

So an office headed by the disgraced James Clapper came up with a report in a few months that you actually take as evidence?  Interesting the Mueller probe that has been in effect for over a year hasn't come to the same conclusion.  You do realize that intelligence folks are actually trained to lie and spread their own narratives, and it was quite clear that the outgoing administration had a general strategy to undermine a duly elected president even before he took office.

Ah so now you have nothing left to say, so just claim the entire thing is one big conspiracy or lie. Typical I guess.

 

I'll patiently await any of your foreign intelligence evidence that suggests they are wrong or were lying. Good luck with that. Until that time, the conversation is rather pointless when you just choose to call whatever you don't like a like, without any evidence to back that up.

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3 minutes ago, bcking said:

Ah so now you have nothing left to say, so just claim the entire thing is one big conspiracy or lie. Typical I guess.

 

I'll patiently await any of your foreign intelligence evidence that suggests they are wrong or were lying. Good luck with that. Until that time, the conversation is rather pointless when you just choose to call whatever you don't like a like, without any evidence to back that up.

I have the Mueller work to back it up.  If as you suggest the Russians changed the voters mind in favor of Trump as this report alleges, why wasn't the Mueller investigation a slam dunk?  Crickets?

 

Here is another link that basically shows this is a joke.  Intelligence agencies like to play politics as well, particularly in the atmosphere of the last administration.

 

https://www.thenation.com/article/mueller-indictments-still-dont-add-collusion/

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5 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

I have the Mueller work to back it up.  If as you suggest the Russians changed the voters mind in favor of Trump as this report alleges, why wasn't the Mueller investigation a slam dunk?  Crickets?

 

Here is another link that basically shows this is a joke.  Intelligence agencies like to play politics as well, particularly in the atmosphere of the last administration.

 

https://www.thenation.com/article/mueller-indictments-still-dont-add-collusion/

You mean this investigation? http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/06/15/whos-been-charged-by-mueller-in-russia-probe-so-far.html

 

Russian Nationals

"A grand jury indicted 13 Russian nationals and three Russian companies in February for allegedly interfering in the 2016 election. In the case, Mueller details a sophisticated plot to wage “information warfare” on the U.S."

 

Richard Pinedo

"Richard Pinedo, a California man who sold bank accounts to Russians meddling in the election, pleaded guilty to using stolen identities to set up the bank accounts in February."

 

George Papadopoulus

"A former foreign policy adviser to Trump’s presidential campaign, George Papadopoulos pleaded guilty in 2017 to making false statements to the FBI regarding “the timing, extent and nature of his relationships and interactions with certain foreign nationals whom he understood to have close connections with senior Russian government officials,” according to court documents."

 

 

Your link above isn't talking about evidence of Russian involvement in our election, which is what we are talking about when we talk about the ODNI report. We aren't talking about specifically colluding with Trump's campaign here. The ODNI report didn't make a judgment about whether Trump's campaign was directly "in on it". It only concluded that Russia was attempting to undermine our democratic election in favour of Trump. Mueller's investigation, in fact, does support that conclusion as you see above. As I said from the beginning, Mueller's investigation wasn't started to prove that point. That was already well established, he is investigating connections specifically with Trump's campaign. Even if Mueller finds no evidence that Trump's campaign worked with Russian officials, that doesn't change the intelligence assessment regarding Russia influencing our election.

 

Seriously man...Take your stuff to the National Enquirer. It'll be better suited there. There is no point trying to have an intelligent discussion when you just claim "lies" to things you don't like, and then have no actual evidence to suggest otherwise. I'm done here.

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36 minutes ago, bcking said:

You mean this investigation? http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/06/15/whos-been-charged-by-mueller-in-russia-probe-so-far.html

 

Russian Nationals

"A grand jury indicted 13 Russian nationals and three Russian companies in February for allegedly interfering in the 2016 election. In the case, Mueller details a sophisticated plot to wage “information warfare” on the U.S."

 

Richard Pinedo

"Richard Pinedo, a California man who sold bank accounts to Russians meddling in the election, pleaded guilty to using stolen identities to set up the bank accounts in February."

 

George Papadopoulus

"A former foreign policy adviser to Trump’s presidential campaign, George Papadopoulos pleaded guilty in 2017 to making false statements to the FBI regarding “the timing, extent and nature of his relationships and interactions with certain foreign nationals whom he understood to have close connections with senior Russian government officials,” according to court documents."

 

 

Your link above isn't talking about evidence of Russian involvement in our election, which is what we are talking about when we talk about the ODNI report. We aren't talking about specifically colluding with Trump's campaign here. The ODNI report didn't make a judgment about whether Trump's campaign was directly "in on it". It only concluded that Russia was attempting to undermine our democratic election in favour of Trump. Mueller's investigation, in fact, does support that conclusion as you see above. As I said from the beginning, Mueller's investigation wasn't started to prove that point. That was already well established, he is investigating connections specifically with Trump's campaign. Even if Mueller finds no evidence that Trump's campaign worked with Russian officials, that doesn't change the intelligence assessment regarding Russia influencing our election.

 

Seriously man...Take your stuff to the National Enquirer. It'll be better suited there. There is no point trying to have an intelligent discussion when you just claim "lies" to things you don't like, and then have no actual evidence to suggest otherwise. I'm done here.

So what are you implying?

 

By the way, the reference you mentioned to the 13 indicted is covered by the link I provided if you bothered to read it, and no it was not from the National Enquirer.  Sure my link does not discuss evidence to the Russian involvement, it discusses the lack of Russian involvement evidence found so far by the Mueller probe (how is that case of the 13 going now that they are actually challenging the appointed King?).  If they got Trump elected for a few hundred thousand in FB adds, then these multimillion dollar campaigns are truly a waste of money.

 

I have already admitted that Russia did things to mess with our election and politics and they are reaping the rewards of a bunch of butt-hurt left wing types now.  It is called national defense.  You brought up the hypocritical actions of the US with respect to the nuclear arsenals, that is called national defense.  The US meddles in other countries elections, that is called national defense.  It is all #######-for-tat in the global community, but unless you can equivocally state they actually changed the vote count, or mind controlled folks to vote one way or the other (regardless of what James Clapper said) it is what it is, global politics and national defense of which all sovereign countries have a right to.  

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On 6/16/2018 at 7:34 PM, jb914 said:

So where do you look for evidence?

 

What evidence would convince you, if not the conclusions of a National Security apparatus who have access to more information than anybody on the planet, whose entire reason for existence is to provide US Leadership (especially the President) with accurate information based on evidence?

 

This is sadly exactly what the Kremlin wants. 50% of America completely mistrusts the government and media. Divided we fall.

 

No matter what reality is, you can count on Fox News or Brietbart to find someone to "disagree," just like until the bitter end Tobacco companies found fringe doctors and scientists to "disagree" with the fact that smoking causes cancer.

If you want to hang your hat on a bunch of hearsay from some Obama loyalists go right ahead. Your not going to convince me or most other people with critical thinking skills to do the same.

 

3 hours ago, bcking said:

Russian Nationals

"A grand jury indicted 13 Russian nationals and three Russian companies in February for allegedly interfering in the 2016 election. In the case, Mueller details a sophisticated plot to wage “information warfare” on the U.S."

Is that the same case where the Russians did what Mueller was counting on them not to do and showed up for court and demanded discovery embarrassing Mueller because he didn't want to give discovery?

morfunphil1_zpsoja67jml.jpg

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5 hours ago, bcking said:

The intelligence came from the FBI, CIA and NSA. The report was published by ODNI, which represents 16 additional members of the intelligence community.

 

Though next to those 3, do we really care that much about the "National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency"? Even if you do, the Director of National Intelligence, whose office produced the report, represents that agency along with 15 others.

 

Time to think of another "lie"...

so the coast guard intelligence agency had an opinion on Russian meddling?  How about the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency

 

dear lord LMAO

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13 minutes ago, jg121783 said:

If you want to hang your hat on a bunch of hearsay from some Obama loyalists go right ahead. Your not going to convince me or most other people with critical thinking skills to do the same.

Believe it or not, some people put country above party. I personally could not fathom putting my political affiliation before my duty to serve if I were employed by the military or intelligence, could you?

 

Example, look at General Michael Hayden, active military service from 1967 to 2008, served as NSA and the CIA directer under Clinton and both terms of Bush, and Obama.

 

Or Robert Meuller, appointed FBI Director by Bush in 2001, and served through five years of Obama's term until 2013.

 

Career Military and National Security Employees are not political appointments, they are not hired and fired simply based on which party controls the white house and discrimination based on political affiliation violates US Federal Law. They are extremely accomplished and intelligent individuals, and tend to be patriotic because they could be making more money in the private sector.

 



 

 

 

 

 

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Just now, Nature Boy Flair said:

so the coast guard intelligence agency had an opinion on Russian meddling?  How about the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency

 

dear lord LMAO

Their Director did. The same director that coordinate 15 other intelligence groups.

 

But yes, the most important are the FBI, CIA and NSA. They all agreed and signed onto the report as well.

29 minutes ago, jg121783 said:

If you want to hang your hat on a bunch of hearsay from some Obama loyalists go right ahead. Your not going to convince me or most other people with critical thinking skills to do the same.

If you call a report fromODNI, FBI, CIA and NSA just "hearsay" from "Obama loyalists" then there is no point trying to have an intelligent discussion with you.

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10 minutes ago, bcking said:

Their Director did. The same director that coordinate 15 other intelligence groups.

 

But yes, the most important are the FBI, CIA and NSA. They all agreed and signed onto the report as well.

If you call a report fromODNI, FBI, CIA and NSA just "hearsay" from "Obama loyalists" then there is no point trying to have an intelligent discussion with you.

so you are admitting that all 17 agreed was a lie. 

 

Since you like links 

 

Clapper Confirms: "17 Intelligence Agencies" Russia Story Was False

 

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2017/07/06/clapper_confirms_17_intelligence_agencies_russia_story_was_false.html

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51 minutes ago, bcking said:

Their Director did. The same director that coordinate 15 other intelligence groups.

 

But yes, the most important are the FBI, CIA and NSA. They all agreed and signed onto the report as well.

If you call a report fromODNI, FBI, CIA and NSA just "hearsay" from "Obama loyalists" then there is no point trying to have an intelligent discussion with you.

I don't believe the DNI coordinates the intelligence agencies operated by the military, and none of the information you posted said otherwise.  The DNI may get information from them, but other than that, not sure you can say they are speaking for them.

 

53 minutes ago, jb914 said:

Believe it or not, some people put country above party. I personally could not fathom putting my political affiliation before my duty to serve if I were employed by the military or intelligence, could you?

 

Example, look at General Michael Hayden, active military service from 1967 to 2008, served as NSA and the CIA directer under Clinton and both terms of Bush, and Obama.

 

Or Robert Meuller, appointed FBI Director by Bush in 2001, and served through five years of Obama's term until 2013.

 

Career Military and National Security Employees are not political appointments, they are not hired and fired simply based on which party controls the white house and discrimination based on political affiliation violates US Federal Law. They are extremely accomplished and intelligent individuals, and tend to be patriotic because they could be making more money in the private sector.

 



 

 

 

 

 

If Mueller is such a stand-up person that should be respected, why did he not notice his very obvious conflicts of interest and take a pass on this job.  Sure, he might be good enough to rise above them, but the appearance is all that matters, and he seems to not care how his own personal conflicts look like let alone his staff's.  I am sure they could have found someone from outside Washington that could have run this investigation and did not have the same conflicts.

 

You mentioned putting political affiliation first, what are your thoughts relative to how the media and FBI treated General Flynn?  I mean the guy plead guilty, the honorable thing to do for lying to the FBI, and they keep dragging out his sentencing.  What a joke of a team run by a dishonorable republican (Mueller).

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