White Nationalist leads torch-bearing protestors against removal of confederate statue

[smilesammich 10,727]

the right have most certainly not went away from attacking those that they perceive as satanists. i don't think there's very much weight in a colombine/slavery comparison. at all.

 

clearly, this thread is vastly white and therefore the conversation concerning the confederate flag is stuck on media/liberal outrage and 'muh rights' to walk into a walmart a buy a cheesy confederate beer huggie..retail establishments that decided to stop selling confederate merchandise did so on their own.

 

anyway the problem i see here is no one is offering up the opinion of a minority living in the south and how difficult it must be to have to wonder if the friendly white person touting a confederate flag on either side of their pickup bed is in fact a racist, or not. sort of ridiculous to assume that minorities should have to make this sort of judgement, imo any white person that gets called a racist for flying the confederate flag needs to man up and understand they only have themselves to blame. if you don't want people to judge whether or not you're a racist..don't fly a confederate flag. otherwise, you deserve whatever judgement comes your way. 

[yuna628 9,527]

11 minutes ago, IAMX said:

The people flying the confederate flag don't sit there being proud of slaves and such from centuries ago. This is merely your own very one-sided views, and it gets way worse when you suggest the things in bold that you have no control over. More than anything it seems like something you need to get past. 

The seditionists lost the Civil War and had to go through an extensive and harsh reconciliation process to pay for what they had done. So ask yourself why southern governments choose to still 'honor' it? We are a United America, not a United-except for those states that still keep hanging onto the past. Their ancestors knew what the war was about and the causes of it. The fact is people seem to become a little triggered when they have to face reality of the past, so it's comforting to think of other excuses to make things a little more palatable to them. Falsehoods in textbooks only get you so far, and believe me I grew up having to ''learn'' from a good many of them.

 

5 minutes ago, ccneat said:

I doubt self help advice from you is going to help anyone,  you should be gentleman and apologize to Yuna.

S'ok. I'm not here for armchair therapy. The fact is you're never going to get someone that is convinced it's all about 'heritage' (what heritage exactly..? because if you keep probing on this issue it gets more and more disconnected and weak). If a good chunk of America could manage to move on we could have healed as a nation long ago. Imagine that huh?

 

2 minutes ago, smilesammich said:

the right have most certainly not went away from attacking those that they perceive as satanists. i don't think there's very much weight in a colombine/slavery comparison. at all.

 

clearly, this thread is vastly white and therefore the conversation concerning the confederate flag is stuck on media/liberal outrage and 'muh rights' to walk into a walmart a buy a cheesy confederate beer huggie..retail establishments that decided to stop selling confederate merchandise did so on their own.

 

anyway the problem i see here is no one is offering up the opinion of a minority living in the south and how difficult it must be to have to wonder if the friendly white person touting a confederate flag on either side of their pickup bed is in fact a racist, or not. sort of ridiculous to assume that minorities should have to make this sort of judgement, imo any white person that gets called a racist for flying the confederate flag needs to man up and understand they only have themselves to blame. if you don't want people to judge whether or not you're a racist..don't fly a confederate flag. otherwise, you deserve whatever judgement comes your way. 

Yep a cheesy confederate flag made with the blood of true patriots... er I mean, made in China. And yes, with everything else I agree.

[Cyberfx1024 7,978]

11 minutes ago, ccneat said:

I doubt self help advice from you is going to help anyone,  you should be gentleman and apologize to Yuna.

Why should he apologize it is true. 

[smilesammich 10,727]

confederate flags aside (hopefully in flames), charlottesville is about an hour and half away from me  - a very nice area with good people. i'm sure a good handful of those people fly the confederate flag but would never join in on a wp parade like this one.. i'm seriously glad that spencer and his band of merry misfits were proud enough to protest under the cover of night and thought to utilize tiki torches instead of going full on old school with their rally. they're a bunch of cowards, i'd love to see them try to pull this off during the day. 

[yuna628 9,527]

1 minute ago, smilesammich said:

confederate flags aside (hopefully in flames), charlottesville is about an hour and half away from me  - a very nice area with good people. i'm sure a good handful of those people fly the confederate flag but would never join in on a wp parade like this one.. i'm seriously glad that spencer and his band of merry misfits were proud enough to protest under the cover of night and thought to utilize tiki torches instead of going full on old school with their rally. they're a bunch of cowards, i'd love to see them try to pull this off during the day. 

Well Spencer was just trying to honor his heritage of being oppressed, of when his KKK ancestors had the freedom to come in the middle of the night to burn crosses and bodies...  it was oppressive to his ancestors because it was really hot and difficult to do under that white-hooded-getup ya know.

[Cyberfx1024 7,978]

27 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

Okay, let's talk ancestors for a moment. Your ancestor didn't own slaves - okay. But did he agree enough with the Confederacy to join in the fight, correct? What was his position on slavery? Do you have any ideas about that? What were his motivations in it all? Many don't care to know what their ancestors motivations were, but over the years they indoctrinate themselves that a group of treason seditionists were somehow heroic in heritage. You can find the lines blurred in textbooks to carefully skirt the issue so that no one's feel feels get hurt. Southern and some Christian-based textbooks need safe space information afterall...

 

I say this knowing very much what my own ancestors did and their position on the war. I made a point to find out. MD was a very conflicted and violent place during the Civil War (it still is.. you could say I live in a KKK loving Confederate town filled with vile people clutching their Confederate flags and screaming heritage but have no idea what that heritage seems to be when questioned). It was afterall the birthplace of the underground railroad. My maternal grandfather's ancestors were German-Dutch living with many god-fearing people opposed to slavery from all over the world who had been through absolute hell and had made a life for themselves on the border MD and with them they lived with my Irish paternal ancestors who were former slaves themselves. They were abolitionists, I believe because their past experiences had shaped in them the concept of liberty for all. The spirit they carried in the Revolutionary War, their later ancestors put into the Civil War as Unionists. On my paternal grandmother's side things were very different. Their experience abroad shaped in them I believe a hatred of mostly everyone and linked their financial survival with slavery - so I can find extensive records of what slaves and servants they owned, how they treated them, what mixed-race children they had by raping their slaves, how they used the Bible to try to justify their vile actions, and what happened to them in the Confederacy. There were few rebellious exceptions in that family, and when they were defeated and the war was over - they certainly were pretty fervent racists all the way to my grandfather. They had no problem telling you what it was all about and what it meant to them...and it wasn't anything noble. My maternal grandfather's stepfather's ancestors were also extremely racist and were slaveholders from the time they got on the boat by order of the King, for as long as they could after the Civil War. For them they were upper-rust dealers in the trade, truly thinking themselves superior to everyone else, and were some of the largest slaveholders in the state. In the branches that migrated to the south, they grew their empire of enslavement. A black body was worthless and subhuman to them. They were merely an object to use to make money.

 

To me there is nothing to be proud about in the Civil War. I am not proud of a single slaveholding ancestor, or an ancestor that fought for the Confederacy for any reason whatsoever. The flag is symbol of treason, murder, and a grave reminder of how poisonous the concept of slavery was - the rejection of the basic principles of our founders created (who also understood the powder keg this issue was and were too cowardly to stand fully on those principles). It is a symbol of how we nearly destroyed our country and slaughtered each other because of greed, jealousy, and hatred. It's a symbol of sin and has tainted and perpetuated all of the hatred that continues to exist in this country to this day. The south needs to find other things to be proud of. I'm sure they can find something if they look hard enough. Demographics are changing in the south, sorry that's problematic for you, but we do live in a free country and people can move where they please. Change isn't easy, but the old ways are dying out. There are plenty of 'true southerners' also sick of that flag and misplaced 'hero worship'. Government has no business in honoring it. Private citizens may do so in their own liberties. And artifacts can be placed in the numerous museums on the subject we already have.

You obviously have not read alot of history do you? There are two main reasons why poor farmers like mine choose to fight on the side of the Confederacy: 1. This is our home and they didn't think that Yankees should be telling them what to do and dictating to them, also they felt that the North was being the aggressors thus why it is still called "The war of Northern War Aggression"  2. Unless you were invalid, rich, or apart of the home guard there was a point in the war when pretty much every able body man that could not get a deferment was forced to fight or flee. 

Maryland was a state that owned slaves until the very end of the war. My family has always been either lower middle class or poor farmers since they stepped off the boat as an indentured servants in the 1600's. I will write more after my meeting in 5 minutes. 

[yuna628 9,527]

1 minute ago, cyberfx1024 said:

You obviously have not read alot of history do you? There are two main reasons why poor farmers like mine choose to fight on the side of the Confederacy: 1. This is our home and they didn't think that Yankees should be telling them what to do and dictating to them, also they felt that the North was being the aggressors thus why it is still called "The war of Northern War Aggression"  2. Unless you were invalid, rich, or apart of the home guard there was a point in the war when pretty much every able body man that could not get a deferment was forced to fight or flee. 

Maryland was a state that owned slaves until the very end of the war. My family has always been either lower middle class or poor farmers since they stepped off the boat as an indentured servants in the 1600's. I will write more after my meeting in 5 minutes. 

Oh I have. I know the answer, I just wanted to know what you think his personal reasons were - not the canned atypical stuff that is repeated. Because what you've just repeated - the most common 'reason' have a lot of plotholes in them and are easy to dissect. I was hoping you had a better, less easily refuted reason. If you're limited on time that's fine, but please don't assume that everyone who disagrees with you on a subject doesn't know history. I'm being empathetic by sharing my heritage with you - we both had individuals fighting as Confederates - different reasons but the same inherent fallacy. You're proud of your ancestor, I take it? But for reasons to me that are muddled. I'm certainly not proud of mine, and with good reason.

[smilesammich 10,727]

Quote

"We're not white supremacists," protester Orry Von Dize told WVIR. "We are simply just white people that love our heritage, our culture, our European identity."

white americans have their own culture? white americans have european identity? if i question/laugh at this does it mean i hate myself?

[Amica Nostra 4,803]

52 minutes ago, smilesammich said:

white americans have their own culture? white americans have european identity? if i question/laugh at this does it mean i hate myself?

Brunch, we have brunch in our culture.  

[Ban Hammer 12,829]

we need to take down that vietnam memorial too, we lost that war.

[CaliCat 3,957]

3 hours ago, cyberfx1024 said:

 

Sorry I might be one of those "Sore Losers" you are talking about. I grew up in NC as I have stated before on here, and if you didn't know NC was one of the last states to actually go for the Confederacy. We sent off more people to go and fight than almost any other state, but we also had the most desertions as well. I can be proud that my ancestor a poor farmer(had no slaves) went off and served his two years in the Confederate Army before he came back home. 

 

Now that I have put that out there I will put my .02 cents in to this argument. I think that all this PC BS about how we need to remove the monuments because of this or that is complete BS. It is apart of our history wither people think it is good or bad it is there. The people that want to remove everything are the same people that want us to conform to their way of thinking and living, it just does not work out like that. The South right now is having an identity crisis all around because of the amount of transplants that moving down to our lower COL states from the North and just trying to change everything that they think is wrong with our society. How the Confederate Monuments and Flags are a reminder of when people owned other people. 

Sorry to bust people's bubbles and alot of people don't know this but Black People OWNED slaves as well. This fact is often not known or discussed out in the open to much. Also there are a fair number of Black People, Latinos, Indians who fought on the side of the Confederacy. So just saying it was all white people is wrong. 

 

A fair number of people in the South both Black and White wave the Rebel(Confederate) Flag and wear all kinds of clothing with it on. Just go down to Daytona or Myrtle Beach on Bike Week or Black Bike Week and you will see people wearing it without a problem. I admit I used wear shirts with it on in the past when I was a teenager and I had a Rebel flag license plate on my car. But for me it is about nostalgia supporting my heritage. 

 

The statues and memorials, as do the confederate flag, are symbols of a dark period in American history. True, they are part of the country's history, but these statues were erected for and represent an ideal that is contrary to what our country states it is in its Constitution. Yes, there were slaves when the document was written, but how can anyone take our country seriously when we state that all men are created equal, yet, some are less equal than others? That type of thought has no place in today's America.

 

The slavery issue is not an anti-white-men proposal as you state. Black people owned slaves, and it doesn't make slavery any less inexcusable for that. I'd propose then that we take down the statues and do away with the flag no matter who owned the slaves. Whoever fought on the confederate side ended up in the wrong side of history, no different than those who fought on the side of Nazi Germany in WWII - and yet we don't see statues of Hitler or any of his men in Paris or Warsaw, or even Rome, that was part of the axis.

 

My 2-cent worth is that what you call an identity crisis in the south is the process of modernization and industrialization that many states are undergoing. The south is catching up with the present and becoming more educated, affluent, and better equipped to compete in the modern world. It has nothing to do with losing an identity. It's the joining the rest of the country in the 21st century. 

 

In terms of heritage, wouldn't it be a better one to pass on to your children and their children that you once stood on the side of what is right, human, and decent, by calling out on these symbols of a country that no longer exists, and for the better of the entire United States? Just a thought...

 

[CaliCat 3,957]

2 hours ago, cyberfx1024 said:

After the whole Dylan Roof fiasco in the South you saw all this hysteria about Confederate symbols and flags. The dang things have been there for a hundred years, but all of a sudden they need to come down now because of that idiot.

 

They need to come down because they've been there for much too long. We abolished slavery, didn't we, even though it had been there for over 100 years. We recognized women's right to vote, didn't we, although they had it denied for centuries. Just because something has been there for a long time doesn't mean it's right.

 

Should we build the Berlin wall all over again?

[CaliCat 3,957]

27 minutes ago, Ban Hammer said:

we need to take down that vietnam memorial too, we lost that war.

 

You make a controversial argument, but one for another topic.

 

In line with this thread however, if you want to attempt to desecrate the memory of those who died in Vietnam, you should propose that we build statues to all the communist leaders against whom they were fighting.

 

Good luck with that. You may find a few who might disagree with you.

 

 

Edited May 15, 2017 by CaliCat

[smilesammich 10,727]

37 minutes ago, ccneat said:

Brunch, we have brunch in our culture.  

brunch isn't a white thing though, i've had brunch with black people. i did yesterday, actually. white culture in america is like, duck dynasty and 'the wild wonderful whites of wva'. so i get it, not much to be proud of.

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

5 hours ago, millefleur said:

The Southerners have to be the biggest sore losers of all time. I know because I'm from the South and grew up around billowing Confederate flags and the lamenting of rednecks of the loss of their heritage. It's just pathetic really.

Nope Hillary supporters are 1st