The end of diversity visas, unskilled immigrant admissions, and family chain visas?

[Dakine10 5,452]

9 minutes ago, cyberfx1024 said:

 

You are wrong. There are many illegals that take jobs from Americans because they want lower wages than Americans do. Construction anyone?

  Correction, they don't want lower wages, they will accept lower wages. Somebody on the other end is paying those wages. Maybe there should be more anger directed at the employers in these situations. If anyone is cheating the American worker, it's the employers. Yet every time congress addresses penalties against the employer through legislation, something that might actually address the issue, it ends up so watered down as to be ineffective. 

 

   Instead of being mad at the guy framing your house, be mad at the guy you keep putting back in congress who's been doing a crappy job for 20 years, and puts his own interests ahead of yours every time. That's the guy who's screwing you over.

[AP16 30]

8 minutes ago, cyberfx1024 said:

 

Ok, like all the Illegals are Mexicans. Well all the Illegals are not Mexicans at all they are people from all different countries. I live in SoCal and I have heard some interviews of CBP agents calling in to give the real scoop to people and not the white washed one. The agents have stated that the majority of Illegals they are catching are Central Americans, Chinese, and Indians(yes from India). That is not being told to the general public at all. Also I have literally been right down by the border out in the middle of the Sonora desert, and their are way states out there written in three different languages English, Spanish, and Chinese. 

I never said that all the illegal immigrants are from Mexico. I merely pointed to the fact that there are more Mexicans leaving than coming because it says a lot about the current status of illegal immigration, since 52% of the undocumented immigrants are from Mexico. Also, not only the undocumented immigrants population it's in a 13 years low, but also the number of apprehensions on the southern border is declining. This fact says a lot too, because obviously illegal immigrants, mexicans or not, come into the country mostly through the Mexico-US border. All this data, combined, says a lot about the real immigration status in the United States.

[Suss&Camm 2,213]

8 hours ago, AP16 said:

"We are only against the illegal ones", they said. "People coming here legally have nothing to worry about", they said.

Well, let's see people's reaction when illegal immigration skyrocket and spin out of control with the wall built and this bill turned into law.

If they make them illegal, they are no longer legal..

[AP16 30]

3 minutes ago, Dakine10 said:

  Correction, they don't want lower wages, they will accept lower wages. Somebody on the other end is paying those wages. Maybe there should be more anger directed at the employers in these situations. If anyone is cheating the American worker, it's the employers. Yet every time congress addresses penalties against the employer through legislation, something that might actually address the issue, it ends up so watered down as to be ineffective. 

 

   Instead of being mad at the guy framing your house, be mad at the guy you keep putting back in congress who's been doing a crappy job for 20 years, and puts his own interests ahead of yours every time. That's the guy who's screwing you over.

Very well said. One of the worst "surprises" that I had since I got here in the United States is how labor laws are weak and give margin for the employer to do pretty much anything he wants to his employees. Low wages, incredibly long working hours, poor work environment, zero enforcement or guarantees to previously agreed conditions... it's insane. In this scenario, we can't draw a picture only by looking at unemployment numbers. We need to ask how the per capita income is going in comparison to average cost of living. Are Americans working more and being paid less? Depending on the answer to this question, we might find out why illegall immigrants are "stealing" jobs. Easier to exploit. Low wages. No rights. High tolerance to poor working conditions (for not having a choice). It's a complicated matter. One cannot reduce all to "the immigrants are stealing American jobs".

[OriZ 3,157]

21 hours ago, Dakine10 said:

 Wage stagnation and immigration are two different issues. Not sure why they are trying so hard to link them. I would rather Republicans spend more time working on fixing wage stagnation, since that is the issue their policies have contributed the most to.

 

  

I don't think it necessarily has anything to do with Republican policies or Democratic policies. Real median household income topped in the late 90's(under Clinton)...mostly due to the changes and the move that began in the 70's and 80's from a manufacturing and production based economy to a service based economy. Also, from an inflationary period in the 70's to a disinflationary period for the next two decades to major deflationary pressures in the last decade. This is a chart of real median household income and it's clear to see the correlation with recessions https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N

 

18 hours ago, Dakine10 said:

  Correction, they don't want lower wages, they will accept lower wages. Somebody on the other end is paying those wages. Maybe there should be more anger directed at the employers in these situations. If anyone is cheating the American worker, it's the employers. Yet every time congress addresses penalties against the employer through legislation, something that might actually address the issue, it ends up so watered down as to be ineffective. 

 

   Instead of being mad at the guy framing your house, be mad at the guy you keep putting back in congress who's been doing a crappy job for 20 years, and puts his own interests ahead of yours every time. That's the guy who's screwing you over.

The employers are doing what they can to make more money. Trust me, I don't enjoy talking to someone on the phone who can't understand English. What I would really like to see is the government actually encouraging real competition and not picking winners and losers by bailing out failed companies. If you have two companies competing for the same workforce they will naturally raise wages and benefits in order to attract the people they need.

 

18 hours ago, AP16 said:

Very well said. One of the worst "surprises" that I had since I got here in the United States is how labor laws are weak and give margin for the employer to do pretty much anything he wants to his employees. Low wages, incredibly long working hours, poor work environment, zero enforcement or guarantees to previously agreed conditions... it's insane. In this scenario, we can't draw a picture only by looking at unemployment numbers. We need to ask how the per capita income is going in comparison to average cost of living. Are Americans working more and being paid less? Depending on the answer to this question, we might find out why illegall immigrants are "stealing" jobs. Easier to exploit. Low wages. No rights. High tolerance to poor working conditions (for not having a choice). It's a complicated matter. One cannot reduce all to "the immigrants are stealing American jobs".

The single biggest force in hourly wages over the last half century has been inflation. Hourly wages adjusted for inflation look like this:

 

 

It has actually gone up since the point this chart ends. That's just the yoy change though. Wages before you adjust for inflation:

 

 

Inflation adjusted:

 

 

So all in all while I would say it's been pretty stagnant, I can't conclude that Americans are being "paid less to work more"...just about the same. I also can't conclude there are particular policies that heavily influenced this change, I think we're looking at secular trends.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[spookyturtle 9,465]

19 hours ago, Dakine10 said:

  Correction, they don't want lower wages, they will accept lower wages. Somebody on the other end is paying those wages. Maybe there should be more anger directed at the employers in these situations. If anyone is cheating the American worker, it's the employers. Yet every time congress addresses penalties against the employer through legislation, something that might actually address the issue, it ends up so watered down as to be ineffective. 

 

   Instead of being mad at the guy framing your house, be mad at the guy you keep putting back in congress who's been doing a crappy job for 20 years, and puts his own interests ahead of yours every time. That's the guy who's screwing you over.

 

Great point and one that Gary used to bring up. Make E-Verify mandatory, fine employers who knowingly employ illegals. The American workers are being cheated and the illegals are being taken advantage of. Gee, I wonder why neither party wants E-Verify? 

[The Nature Boy 7,659]

9 minutes ago, spookyturtle said:

 

Great point and one that Gary used to bring up. Make E-Verify mandatory, fine employers who knowingly employ illegals. The American workers are being cheated and the illegals are being taken advantage of. Gee, I wonder why neither party wants E-Verify? 

We have it here in GA. It sure cut down on the illegals I could hire when I was a plant manager, at the request of my Big time Republican owner.  Shot a commercial one day with a congressional candidate a few years back. He was talking the talk on shutting down illegal immigration. I counted at least 7 in the background.  

[Transborderwife 4,666]

13 hours ago, spookyturtle said:

 

Great point and one that Gary used to bring up. Make E-Verify mandatory, fine employers who knowingly employ illegals. The American workers are being cheated and the illegals are being taken advantage of. Gee, I wonder why neither party wants E-Verify? 

Everify is great if it's used properly and for everyone.  When I worked in the strip club industry there was a space to put down your SSN but not required.  Even with shift pay there's no W2s and it's sheerly your own responsibility to file your taxes properly.  Many girls (legal in talking here) didn't and collect government benefits out the wazoo.  Perhaps the illegal ones as well.  For the independent contractor business it's very simple to bypass all of that.  

 

When we had raids it was never about proper documentation either.  If they wanted to know whom was whom we gave copies of photo ID and that's all they'd ask for.

[Dakine10 5,452]

14 hours ago, spookyturtle said:

 

Great point and one that Gary used to bring up. Make E-Verify mandatory, fine employers who knowingly employ illegals. The American workers are being cheated and the illegals are being taken advantage of. Gee, I wonder why neither party wants E-Verify? 

  I often agreed with Gary's points, just not his presentation. Of course when he was wrong, he was way out in left field.

[Dakine10 5,452]

14 hours ago, OriZ said:

 

So all in all while I would say it's been pretty stagnant, I can't conclude that Americans are being "paid less to work more"...just about the same. I also can't conclude there are particular policies that heavily influenced this change, I think we're looking at secular trends.

 

  I think there are definitely policies which have propagated wage stagnation (to an extent). Policies such as elimination unions, keeping minimum wage down, financial deregulation, corporate citizenship, tax loopholes and inconsistencies, all play a part in keeping wages lower than they should be. The extent to which each plays a role can certainly be debated, but I don't see putting immigration ahead of any of those as contributing to wage stagnation. Linking any of this to legal immigration is just blowing smoke again instead of addressing a problem.

 

  I'm curious does your chart address monetary inflation, or just price inflation?  It looks like it's just using the CPI. When the Fed increases the money supply by 5% in a year and then tells me we've had 1% inflation, I am kind of skeptical. If I get a 1% raise that same year while the government spends another half trillion more than they take in, am I really supposed to think everything is even. It's really quite an illusion.

 

  

   

[OriZ 3,157]

2 minutes ago, Dakine10 said:

  I think there are definitely policies which have propagated wage stagnation (to an extent). Policies such as elimination unions, keeping minimum wage down, financial deregulation, corporate citizenship, tax loopholes and inconsistencies, all play a part in keeping wages lower than they should be. The extent to which each plays a role can certainly be debated, but I don't see putting immigration ahead of any of those as contributing to wage stagnation. Linking any of this to legal immigration is just blowing smoke again instead of addressing a problem.

 

  I'm curious does your chart address monetary inflation, or just price inflation?  It looks like it's just using the CPI. When the Fed increases the money supply by 5% in a year and then tells me we've had 1% inflation, I am kind of skeptical. If I get a 1% raise that same year while the government spends another half trillion more than they take in, am I really supposed to think everything is even. It's really quite an illusion.

 

  

   

 

Indeed it's based on the CPI. The FED increasing the money supply in and of itself is not a guarantee for inflation. People have been expecting runaway inflation for the last 8 years ever since they began this policy and it has not happened. Creating lots of fiat money out of thin air when nobody wants to use it doesn't help much. If all you're using it for is to pay down debts, or defaults, producers are forced to lower their prices in order to clear out inventories. Banks hoarded the money also in order to shore up their balance sheets.  What's more important is the velocity of money which as I'm sure you know is how fast money is exchanged from one transaction to another. It peaked in the 90's and is still plunging:

 

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M2V

 

When the FED tells you you had 1% inflation they just mean price inflation, the rest is a whole nother issue/story about debt. 

 

At the end of the day what we're trying to see here with the charts is - have prices increased materially more than wages? The answer is no. Usually goes hand in hand when you have virtually no price inflation you also have wage stagnation and vice versa. I also don't think immigration is the lead contributor, like I said I just see it more as a secular trend. If you ever heard of the Kondratieff cycle it can help explain it but of course there are other factors.  

[Dakine10 5,452]

13 minutes ago, OriZ said:

 

Indeed it's based on the CPI. The FED increasing the money supply in and of itself is not a guarantee for inflation. People have been expecting runaway inflation for the last 8 years ever since they began this policy and it has not happened. Creating lots of fiat money out of thin air when nobody wants to use it doesn't help much. If all you're using it for is to pay down debts, or defaults, producers are forced to lower their prices in order to clear out inventories. Banks hoarded the money also in order to shore up their balance sheets.  What's more important is the velocity of money which as I'm sure you know is how fast money is exchanged from one transaction to another. It peaked in the 90's and is still plunging:

 

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M2V

 

When the FED tells you you had 1% inflation they just mean price inflation, the rest is a whole nother issue/story about debt. 

 

At the end of the day what we're trying to see here with the charts is - have prices increased materially more than wages? The answer is no. Usually goes hand in hand when you have virtually no price inflation you also have wage stagnation and vice versa. I also don't think immigration is the lead contributor, like I said I just see it more as a secular trend. If you ever heard of the Kondratieff cycle it can help explain it but of course there are other factors.  

 

   I think going by the CPI, we could reach the end of time without seeing significant inflation again. That is more of a design flaw in the CPI than anything else. Anyone who does their own shopping can tell you that many things are going up exponentially faster than the CPI would indicate.

 

  

 

 

[AP16 30]

16 hours ago, OriZ said:

I don't think it necessarily has anything to do with Republican policies or Democratic policies. Real median household income topped in the late 90's(under Clinton)...mostly due to the changes and the move that began in the 70's and 80's from a manufacturing and production based economy to a service based economy. Also, from an inflationary period in the 70's to a disinflationary period for the next two decades to major deflationary pressures in the last decade. This is a chart of real median household income and it's clear to see the correlation with recessions https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N

 

The employers are doing what they can to make more money. Trust me, I don't enjoy talking to someone on the phone who can't understand English. What I would really like to see is the government actually encouraging real competition and not picking winners and losers by bailing out failed companies. If you have two companies competing for the same workforce they will naturally raise wages and benefits in order to attract the people they need.

 

The single biggest force in hourly wages over the last half century has been inflation. Hourly wages adjusted for inflation look like this:

 

 

It has actually gone up since the point this chart ends. That's just the yoy change though. Wages before you adjust for inflation:

 

 

Inflation adjusted:

 

 

So all in all while I would say it's been pretty stagnant, I can't conclude that Americans are being "paid less to work more"...just about the same. I also can't conclude there are particular policies that heavily influenced this change, I think we're looking at secular trends.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

These numbers surely corroborate your opinion. I agree. And I haven't been here for long, so I may be jumping to conclusions. But I took in consideration to ask that question - among other things but more than anything - Healthcare and tuitions. 

From what I've been reading, tuitions in this country raised twice as much as any other service in the US. And I don't think wages are following this raise. I see people that go to college and have to work full time to pay for it, which obviously reflects on the school performance. 21 years old drowning in debt because of school. Even public universities here are expensive, something I just cannot wrap my mind around. Might be cultural shock. But going to a public university and realize you have to pay a fortune for tuitions and on top of that access codes, textbooks, parking , copies, sounds just absurd and counter productive. How can it be good for the economy to create professionals that leave the university already full of debt, with very small acquisition power?

Healthcare, in my opinion, is absolutely chaotic. I was watching the Sanders vs Cruz debate over it on Tuesday and it honestly made me scared. It looks like the most menial medical procedure here is extremely expensive and health insurance is just as expensive, plus health insurance companies have the discretion of choosing to pay or not for your expenses. I saw terrifying accounts of people that have serious illness and just do not treat because they can't afford it, either because health insurance is too expensive or because some company refused to cover it.

My wife got a job where she is being harassed and overworked, and when I told her she should quit immediately I was told by her parents she should suck it up because the health insurance is very good and we will not find another like it. So I just wonder, are some Americans trapped in jobs they do not like because of health insurance and a lot more just unprotected, unable to pay for healthcare if the need arises? Is the employer discretion growing to a point where they can keep such horrible working conditions to the point of pushing away americans and attracting desperate immigrants with no choice?

Like I said, I might be jumping to conclusions. I love thiseeing country, but some things here surprised me in a not very good way, specially healthcare, education and labor laws.

[Boiler 43,419]

Since I have been here I have noticed a number pf large medical complexes being built and for most treatments it makes no sense.

 

Why not build such facilities in say Mexico, near to an Airport. Flying people in would save a fortune.

[OriZ 3,157]

2 hours ago, Dakine10 said:

 

   I think going by the CPI, we could reach the end of time without seeing significant inflation again. That is more of a design flaw in the CPI than anything else. Anyone who does their own shopping can tell you that many things are going up exponentially faster than the CPI would indicate.

 

  

 

 

I do my own shopping, and I disagree. During times of higher inflation the CPI has reflected it well. I personally prefer the PPI, but they both do a good job. You can also look at the core ppi and cpi if you want to exclude certain things like oil, but there is a neat correlation between the CPI and the 10 year treasury note. It's not like during the inflationary period several decades ago it was not reflected in the CPI, and the last decade has had too many deflationary pressures for prices on most things to rise significantly. I'm not saying they haven't with some things like health care, but if you compare it to prior periods there's no comparison. Prices are pretty stable overall imo.