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Why would the Chicago PD not see a hate crime?

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10 minutes ago, bcking said:

Yes I agree it is just how we define things and how we consider things in this country (not sure about other countries).

 

Also I didn't mean evil in the traditional sense of the devil. I mean I think people can be a skewed version of what is right/wrong and it not be from a "mental illness" that can be changed. I think there are people who are of sound mind, but their mind tells them that torture, rape etc... are okay. I think something is wrong with them, but I'm not sure I would call it mental illness for all of them.

 

In psychiatry there is a legitimate debate about whether or not "personality disorders" are "mental illness". That basically sums up my issue as well. I'm not sure they are. I'm not sure that a person who has an antisocial personality disorder for example is necessarily "mentally ill". There is something wrong with them but I just wouldn't necessarily want them grouped with the mentally ill who suffer from depression, bipolar, schizophrenia etc...

i don't understand. how can you say 'something is wrong with them' but you don't want to group them with mentally ill. why? what else could it be? personality doesn't come from some unknowable body part..

 

i find it much easier to describe a person like dylan roof as mentally ill over evil. guess that's just my own personally programming from childhood but calling a person evil feels more like an excuse, it feels too easy. mostly because there's nothing that can be done when a person has been determined evil.

 

there is a vast difference between mentally ill and criminally insane, i mean, if it all comes down to excuses.

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9 minutes ago, bcking said:

It may not be what Yuna is talking about, but for example an antisocial personality disorder does not just appear at age 25. These aren't people who were "once good" and then suddenly they are evil and maim/torture etc... If it is new at age 25-30 then yes I think that is something work investigating.

 

Antisocial personality disorder (AKA sociopaths) almost always starts as conduct disorder in children. So kids who enjoy catching wild animals and skinning them/torturing them just for pleasure. Kids who light fires just to "watch it burn" etc... Not all of them grow up to be bad but usually if you have someone who has APD in their 20's they typically have a history of problems in their youth as well. It isn't a sudden thing.

oh definitely. i'm reading 'raven' right now about jim jones. the stories from his childhood are insane.

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16 minutes ago, bcking said:

Antisocial personality disorder (AKA sociopaths) almost always starts as conduct disorder in children. So kids who enjoy catching wild animals and skinning them/torturing them just for pleasure. Kids who light fires just to "watch it burn" etc... Not all of them grow up to be bad but usually if you have someone who has APD in their 20's they typically have a history of problems in their youth as well. It isn't a sudden thing.

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23 minutes ago, smilesammich said:

i don't understand. how can you say 'something is wrong with them' but you don't want to group them with mentally ill. why? what else could it be? personality doesn't come from some unknowable body part..

 

i find it much easier to describe a person like dylan roof as mentally ill over evil. guess that's just my own personally programming from childhood but calling a person evil feels more like an excuse, it feels too easy. mostly because there's nothing that can be done when a person has been determined evil.

 

there is a vast difference between mentally ill and criminally insane, i mean, if it all comes down to excuses.

So the difference is between a brain that is wired and put together correctly, but is "misfiring", or secreting the wrong amounts of neurotransmitters etc... We generally think of mental illness as a "chemical imbalance in the brain". We can then treat those mental illnesses by trying to alter the chemicals. We aren't always successful, and it is not very specific treatments but we at least think we can alter the course of things like depression, bipolar, schizophrenia. Both pharmacologically and through things like cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT).

 

Personality disorders are sort of "hard-wired" and we see them as more static because we have yet to be able to truly treat them or improve them. Doesn't mean we won't figure out some new pathway that we can manage to help treat them, but generally we are not successful. CBT also is not very successful. It may just be a flaw in our current knowledge, but many psychiatrists still see them differently (and the DSM sees them differently) in part because we can't alter Personality disorders.

 

Unfortunately there really isnt' much to be done about a severe antisocial personality disorder person. We don't have very good or any treatments for it. They are just "different" in a way that doesn't work with society. I consider them "evil", they don't see themselves as that because they don't really have any morality (or if they do it's very skewed and screwed up). Again, this is also not something that they just develop in adulthood. They have been this way, or similar, since they were very young.

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I would say most sociopaths are cultivated during childhood. During youth is often how we are defined as a human being. I look at everyone as having the same equal opportunity to choose to be either a good person or a bad person. Roof chose to be a bad person, as many of our sociopaths, serial killers, mass murderers, and terrorists do. And when a person really and truly has no remorse for their actions, to me that is the definition of evil. The acknowledgment that what they have done is bad, but they simply do not care. There is no saving that.

 

There are a lot of people that are antisocial these days. 99% of the kids on forums I admin'd back in the day before social media took off were antisocial (some were real terrors). Of course online everyone can appear and pretend to be as social as they want to be. To a degree I'm pretty antisocial. You aren't going to find me in a room being a butterfly, or enjoying large crowds, and noise or even communicating with people that much unless I trust them. It's a sense of feeling uncomfortable that I can't shake. That is a direct product of certain aspects of my upbringing, but it's nothing that I can't choose to improve upon as a person. Antisocial kids are often picked upon as abnormal and weird, which in certain personalities adds fuel to the fire. But I often find a lot of it is a direct result of neglectful behavior and a lack of correction or love from parents. What turns a person from just a loner into a straight up sociopath I don't know. But in my mind, it is a choice. They are whom they choose to be ultimately. When I think back to the kid who killed his mother before shooting up a school, or the rich kid who hated women and ran people over for fun times - these people all had problems in their childhood, but they all made an active choice to no longer care to choose goodness. It's not a redeemable place to come out of for the majority of them.

 

At some point the kids in this video also made a choice. They chose to let hate replace their soul.

 

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1 minute ago, yuna628 said:

I would say most sociopaths are cultivated during childhood. During youth is often how we are defined as a human being. I look at everyone as having the same equal opportunity to choose to be either a good person or a bad person. Roof chose to be a bad person, as many of our sociopaths, serial killers, mass murderers, and terrorists do. And when a person really and truly has no remorse for their actions, to me that is the definition of evil. The acknowledgment that what they have done is bad, but they simply do not care. There is no saving that.

 

There are a lot of people that are antisocial these days. 99% of the kids on forums I admin'd back in the day before social media took off were antisocial (some were real terrors). Of course online everyone can appear and pretend to be as social as they want to be. To a degree I'm pretty antisocial. You aren't going to find me in a room being a butterfly, or enjoying large crowds, and noise or even communicating with people that much unless I trust them. It's a sense of feeling uncomfortable that I can't shake. That is a direct product of certain aspects of my upbringing, but it's nothing that I can't choose to improve upon as a person. Antisocial kids are often picked upon as abnormal and weird, which in certain personalities adds fuel to the fire. But I often find a lot of it is a direct result of neglectful behavior and a lack of correction or love from parents. What turns a person from just a loner into a straight up sociopath I don't know. But in my mind, it is a choice. They are whom they choose to be ultimately. When I think back to the kid who killed his mother before shooting up a school, or the rich kid who hated women and ran people over for fun times - these people all had problems in their childhood, but they all made an active choice to no longer care to choose goodness. It's not a redeemable place to come out of for the majority of them.

 

At some point the kids in this video also made a choice. They chose to let hate replace their soul.

 

To be clear, "antisocial personality disorder" is a horrible name for the disorder. It has nothing to do with be "antisocial" in the sense that you don't like to talk to people. I can be antisocial, and I was an antisocial child. That is very different. Some people call it "dissocial" personality disorder to better differentiate it with what mainstream people call "antisocial". 

 

Also by definition personality disorders are not things that people "choose" to become. They are inate personality disorders that begin in childhood but aren't officially labelled until they are adults. They include antisocial, narcissistic, borderline, histrionic, avoidant (which is more like what people call "antisocial", but to an extreme) and others. 

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Update:

 

They have been charged with hate crime, felony aggravated kidnapping, aggravated unlawful restraint and aggravated battery with a deadly weapon.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/05/us/chicago-facebook-live-beating/

Edited by MarkPerry
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16 minutes ago, MarkPerry said:

crickets.jpg

If they are going to get hate crime charges, what pray tell are you continuing to prattle on about? Sorry Chicago PD failed to fit your original narrative. Reality sucks I guess.

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1 hour ago, MarkPerry said:

Update:

 

They have been charged with hate crime, felony aggravated kidnapping, aggravated unlawful restraint and aggravated battery with a deadly weapon.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/05/us/chicago-facebook-live-beating/

This is the first time I ever recall a black person being charged with a hate crime 

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1 minute ago, ready4ONE said:

If they are going to get hate crime charges, what pray tell are you continuing to prattle on about? Sorry Chicago PD failed to fit your original narrative. Reality sucks I guess.

And it would be Trump's fault 

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28 minutes ago, Nature Boy Flair said:

This is the first time I ever recall a black person being charged with a hate crime 

You haven't googled hard enough to reboot your memory.

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https://ucr.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/hate-crime/2014/topic-pages/offenders_final

 

FBI data for 2014 (They don't have 2015 up). Statistics for the offenders. 23% Black/African American and 52% white based on the people where it was reported.

 

EDIT:

 

Just like discussions we've had recently about news waiting to report information until they have it confirmed so that we can stop "fake news" going around, I think it is reasonable for a police department to not publicly confirm what someone will be charged with until they have actually gathered the evidence and are confident that they will be making that charge. It wouldn't help everyone for them to say "We are definitely going to be charging them with a hate crime!" and then 1 hour later for them to say "Oops actually we aren't". I'd rather them say "We are investigating" at the beginning, and then inform us when they know for sure.

Edited by bcking
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