Notice of intent to deny... what?!

[Transborderwife 4,666]

All the threads I have seen about those going through Stokes interviews there have been obvious reasons why.

one in five don't seem to want to give a valid reason

[Usagi_tsukino 89]

All the threads I have seen about those going through Stokes interviews there have been obvious reasons why.

Yeah... well i'll post here what the notice says. Do you (all of you) think those 3 mismatches could actually be the reason for NOID? And it kind of pisses me off that we were not even given the chance to explain, it would be very easy. So weird.

Edited December 27, 2016 by banana_princess

[dwheels76 5,459]

The other thing is, strokes interview was too easy. It was very quick and most questions were about out apartment: where is the mail box, how many locks you have, how many bedrooms ect. Easy stuff. Where we spent christmas eve, what we had for dinner yesterday. I even asked if thats it, i thought it will be harder. Thats weird that they didn't talk about "what they found". I don't know.... unless my husband is hiding something serious lol but they asked him the same questions. The lawyer was there.

How can you say the stokes interview was easy when you messed up some vital questions.?

You have joint accounts knowing how much your spouse makes is very important and shows true co-mingling of finances.

Forgetting his scar. Yikes that's ummm kind of important. he might have been married 12 years ago but his ex-wife became a citizen just before you two got together. Maybe they think he's immigrant shopping. You never know.

All you can do is wait for the NOID, I am sure they will list the evidence they want to see. Hopefully and not just deny you outright. You have a lawyer make them earn their pay. You should have been better prepared for this.

[Usagi_tsukino 89]

How can you say the stokes interview was easy when you messed up some vital questions.?

You have joint accounts knowing how much your spouse makes is very important and shows true co-mingling of finances.

Forgetting his scar. Yikes that's ummm kind of important. he might have been married 12 years ago but his ex-wife became a citizen just before you two got together. Maybe they think he's immigrant shopping. You never know.

All you can do is wait for the NOID, I am sure they will list the evidence they want to see. Hopefully and not just deny you outright. You have a lawyer make them earn their pay. You should have been better prepared for this.

We did not mess it up.

He gets paid hourly, he works different days (sometimes more sometimes less, which is why his paycheck is always different).

Well, actually thank you for bringing it up from your point of view. May be we will explain that when we respond to the notice, because may be our officer thinks that too. And i know that he makes more than at the other position, i told her that. Besides, his checks don't even says how many hours he works, it's only total amount. He recently got this job and i remember that they discussed his pay, i forgot what they agreed on eventually.

Yeah, i agree we should have. We didn't think it will be a problem since our marriage is legit.

And also, he actually has nothing to do with her citizenship, she petitioned on her own when they were separated.

Edited December 27, 2016 by banana_princess

[Boiler 43,401]

The important thing is that your Lawyer is fully aware of the issues.

[Villanelle 4,121]

Yeah... well i'll post here what the notice says. Do you (all of you) think those 3 mismatches could actually be the reason for NOID? And it kind of pisses me off that we were not even given the chance to explain, it would be very easy. So weird.

Absolutely NOT- when they send you a NOID or NOIR its actually a technical thing..(I actually was just reading something about this for some other reason and it stuck out at me) Id have to look around to see if I could find what it was that I was reading- and this isnt the actual wording they used (obviously) but it was saying a NOID or NOIR is sent when theres something they can use or will be using or are using or whatever to deny you that they know because they found it in their investigation or whatever and its unclear if you know about it. Because YOU didnt send it in, YOU didnt tell them, YOU didnt include it in your packet.

Its almost like in a court case when the prosecution has to turn over all the evidence to the defense so the defense can argue about it. They have to "tell" you whatever "negative" stuff they may be considering so that you have an opportunity to try to address it. But its usually only for stuff that they have that they are considering that you may not know about because you didnt give to them.

So if its reasonable to believe you know the negative factors they dont send a NOID. You know what went on in the interview, you know what you submitted. You can review everything you submitted for inconsistencies. You can not review your packet with their sources however and see inconsistencies- so in that case its unreasonable to believe you know the negative factors so they disclose them to you.

[Usagi_tsukino 89]

Absolutely NOT- when they send you a NOID or NOIR its actually a technical thing..(I actually was just reading something about this for some other reason and it stuck out at me) Id have to look around to see if I could find what it was that I was reading- and this isnt the actual wording they used (obviously) but it was saying a NOID or NOIR is sent when theres something they can use or will be using or are using or whatever to deny you that they know because they found it in their investigation or whatever and its unclear if you know about it. Because YOU didnt send it in, YOU didnt tell them, YOU didnt include it in your packet.

Its almost like in a court case when the prosecution has to turn over all the evidence to the defense so the defense can argue about it. They have to "tell" you whatever "negative" stuff they may be considering so that you have an opportunity to try to address it. But its usually only for stuff that they have that they are considering that you may not know about because you didnt give to them.

So if its reasonable to believe you know the negative factors they dont send a NOID. You know what went on in the interview, you know what you submitted. You can review everything you submitted for inconsistencies. You can not review your packet with their sources however and see inconsistencies- so in that case its unreasonable to believe you know the negative factors so they disclose them to you.

So you think it's not those 3 answers? Then why did they call us to the interview at all...

I actually keep re-reading i-130, very simple form and there is not that much to mess up.

Can't wait for the notice!

I did like Transborderwife's argument about his previous marriage, because i was thinking it myself long time ago until i got convinced that it's not the problem. But then again why do this interview if they found something in the other marriage, not ours... and then give 30 days to respond to something about something that was 12 years ago... i'm so confused.

[Villanelle 4,121]

So you think it's not those 3 answers? Then why did they call us to the interview at all...

I actually keep re-reading i-130, very simple form and there is not that much to mess up.

Can't wait for the notice!

I did like Transborderwife's argument about his previous marriage, because i was thinking it myself long time ago until i got convinced that it's not the problem. But then again why do this interview if they found something in the other marriage, not ours... and then give 30 days to respond to something about something that was 12 years ago... i'm so confused.

Well, youre going to have to wait for the notice I suppose. I did look through the forums at some of your old postings. You mention being around 30yrs old but also living in the US since being a teen? What kind of status(s) did you have all that time?

You also talked about his ex a bit. How they were married but then separated a long time before actually filing for divorce. I believe you stated the divorce (on paper) was done a few months before your marriage but you guys lived together for 2 years before getting married right?

So there are 2 timelines going on there. When you look at him and his ex, he petitioned for her- she got her GC, and then citizenship (you state on her own -5yr clause) and then Im figuring based on your statement of him filing for her 10 yrs ago that an estimated date line could look like working backwards:

File for GC for banana 2015 (1 year after marriage) why did you wait so long when you were out of status? just curious

Married to banana 2014

divorce from ex- 2014 (4 months earlier)

lived together with banana 2012 and 2013

banana and USC start dating

USC and ex spouse separate

banana and USC meet 2010

USC and spouse live together for 5 years so that means 2005-2010

Does that seem about right?

So when did the Ex apply for citizenship? Around 2010? Look I understand she might NOT have applied under the 3yr rule, however if she applied when she was still legally married and provided proof of the marriage in her paperwork which contradicts any of your paperwork that can be your issue.

Does he have a relationship with the ex that he could ask her if this may be the case? Would she be willing to give him a copy of her citizenship packet that she submitted or at least discuss with him if she listed their joint address on the forms or included other evidence that might be working against you guys? Or if something was said in that interview? (if it was done during the period of separation)

I really hope the NOID gives you some insight on the situation, however I dont want you to get your hopes up too high on what its going to contain. I mean its not going to clearly state we are having an issue with "xyz" and spell out exactly what xyz is. Its not going to say oh you didnt correctly identify his scar so we are holding that against you. You know what Im saying? You have to be able to read what they are saying and see what they are saying that they may not be spelling directly out.

I did find that paper I mentioned before. I think it can help you. Look it over. It can help you make sense of the NOID when it comes. Your attny should be able to understand the notice however YOU know your case the best, so I really do think its a good idea for you to read the doc and evaluate the NOID yourself in addition to discussing it with your attny.

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/About%20Us/Directorates%20and%20Program%20Offices/RAIO/Decision%20Making%20LP%20(RAIO).pdf

Another issue that comes up with the approval of 130s is criminal charges. That can delay or prevent the approval of the 130, however if they believed your husband had an issue like that or had his identity confused due to common name they would send HIM for biometrics. Since they didnt, I dont think thats the issue. They also havent RFE'd for certification of the marriage documents or anything like that- so I dont think theres an actual issue with the 130 in that aspect. The 130 just establishes the relationship making you eligible for benefits so to speak. It seems they are just holding everything together rather then processing it separately. They sometimes do that.

So then you are just left with the bonafides of the relationship holding it up. This is either because you didnt submit enough proof or they dont believe you are legit. If your NOID contains "fraud" language then you need to appeal or file a motion to reopen if you are ultimately denied because you cant just 'refile' since the fraud language becomes part of your record and youll never be able to adjust with it there. You will have to fight it off one way or another with the current application you have going.

So it could be the ex spouse, it could also be the fact that you have been in the US for so long and married someone just after they divorced so it could appear you did so for the GC.. ? Did his ex also adjust in a similar situation?

Its also odd (just FYI because it adds to the suspicion of marriage fraud $$ of the USC) that the USC had issues with the aff of support yet you guys provided a lot of jewelry receipts in the interview? A diamond bracelet? Did the amounts on the receipts match up reasonably to the income he provided them? please dont take any offense to this-Im just throwing things out there that you may not have considered.

[Usagi_tsukino 89]

Thanks for your insights Damara! Here:

Well, youre going to have to wait for the notice I suppose. I did look through the forums at some of your old postings. You mention being around 30yrs old but also living in the US since being a teen? What kind of status(s) did you have all that time?

-i was out of status unfortunately.

You also talked about his ex a bit. How they were married but then separated a long time before actually filing for divorce. I believe you stated the divorce (on paper) was done a few months before your marriage but you guys lived together for 2 years before getting married right?

-yep

So there are 2 timelines going on there. When you look at him and his ex, he petitioned for her- she got her GC, and then citizenship (you state on her own -5yr clause) and then Im figuring based on your statement of him filing for her 10 yrs ago that an estimated date line could look like working backwards:

File for GC for banana 2015 (1 year after marriage) why did you wait so long when you were out of status? just curious

-i had to get a new passport from my country of origin.
Married to banana 2014
divorce from ex- 2014 (4 months earlier)

lived together with banana 2012 and 2013

banana and USC start dating

USC and ex spouse separate

banana and USC meet 2010

USC and spouse live together for 5 years so that means 2005-2010

Does that seem about right?

-yep

So when did the Ex apply for citizenship? Around 2010? Look I understand she might NOT have applied under the 3yr rule, however if she applied when she was still legally married and provided proof of the marriage in her paperwork which contradicts any of your paperwork that can be your issue.

-No, 2012. And he has nothing to do with is, as he says. She applied on her own. (I asked him if he signed anything)

Does he have a relationship with the ex that he could ask her if this may be the case? Would she be willing to give him a copy of her citizenship packet that she submitted or at least discuss with him if she listed their joint address on the forms or included other evidence that might be working against you guys? Or if something was said in that interview? (if it was done during the period of separation)

- thats a good idea...

I really hope the NOID gives you some insight on the situation, however I dont want you to get your hopes up too high on what its going to contain. I mean its not going to clearly state we are having an issue with "xyz" and spell out exactly what xyz is. Its not going to say oh you didnt correctly identify his scar so we are holding that against you. You know what Im saying? You have to be able to read what they are saying and see what they are saying that they may not be spelling directly out.

I did find that paper I mentioned before. I think it can help you. Look it over. It can help you make sense of the NOID when it comes. Your attny should be able to understand the notice however YOU know your case the best, so I really do think its a good idea for you to read the doc and evaluate the NOID yourself in addition to discussing it with your attny.

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/About%20Us/Directorates%20and%20Program%20Offices/RAIO/Decision%20Making%20LP%20(RAIO).pdf

-Thank you!!

Another issue that comes up with the approval of 130s is criminal charges. That can delay or prevent the approval of the 130, however if they believed your husband had an issue like that or had his identity confused due to common name they would send HIM for biometrics. Since they didnt, I dont think thats the issue. They also havent RFE'd for certification of the marriage documents or anything like that- so I dont think theres an actual issue with the 130 in that aspect. The 130 just establishes the relationship making you eligible for benefits so to speak. It seems they are just holding everything together rather then processing it separately. They sometimes do that.

-No, he has no problems with the law.

So then you are just left with the bonafides of the relationship holding it up. This is either because you didnt submit enough proof or they dont believe you are legit. If your NOID contains "fraud" language then you need to appeal or file a motion to reopen if you are ultimately denied because you cant just 'refile' since the fraud language becomes part of your record and youll never be able to adjust with it there. You will have to fight it off one way or another with the current application you have going.

So it could be the ex spouse, it could also be the fact that you have been in the US for so long and married someone just after they divorced so it could appear you did so for the GC.. ? Did his ex also adjust in a similar situation?

-No, she never was out of status.

Its also odd (just FYI because it adds to the suspicion of marriage fraud $$ of the USC) that the USC had issues with the aff of support yet you guys provided a lot of jewelry receipts in the interview? A diamond bracelet? Did the amounts on the receipts match up reasonably to the income he provided them? please dont take any offense to this-Im just throwing things out there that you may not have considered.

- What do you mean by issues with affidavit of support? If you are referring to that old RFE, it must have been uscis mistake because he made enough money... i have no idea why they said he doesn't..

Still it's weird that they never mentioned any problems with that timeline... they didn't ask as anything like "when did you start dating" "when did you move in together"...

Edited December 28, 2016 by banana_princess

[Villanelle 4,121]

Well it doesnt matter if the ex applied under the 5 year rule or the 3 year rule- if they were still legally married which they were- I understand they were separated and you were living with him at the time, but she was still his legal wife.

The 3yr/5yr thing is just if you are still married and together a LPR can apply at the 3yr mark. If not they can apply at the 5yr mark. So your marital status is relevant to make you eligible to apply under 3 yrs. However when you apply at the 5yr mark (even though its based on meeting 5yrs and not through 3yrs of being married) they still ask you on the forms and stuff about your marital status. Its not relevant to be eligible to apply- but its still part of "who you are"

She would have had to state "married" because she was still legally married. Were their tax returns joint up until the divorce or up until the separation? Did she apply before or after they separated? (it can take about a year to process the forms so if she became a citizen in '12 she may have applied in '11).

It is common in naturalization interviews (even those using the 5yr eligibility) to be questioned on their marriage that obtained them the GC. Some people feel this is not fair because they arent using the 3yr eligibility so the marriage (whatever status it currently is) shouldnt matter anymore- but it does. Citizenship is a different kind of benefit where they review you a bit differently you can say. Theres more scrutiny on your moral character. Your past dealings with immigration are fair play. If the marriage that gave you the GC broke down (potentially after going through roc for many) they can question you about it and do in many cases.

Either way the USC spouse has no involvement in the actual citizenship process whether its at 3yrs or 5yrs. They dont sign anything or attend any interviews. So like I said, perhaps she submitted evidence that contradicts or overlaps some of the time you are claiming to have a legit relationship.

Oh and I really dont know about the RFE for the aff of support. The search function on VJ is a bit wonky and only goes back so far. I dont really know what went on with your RFE about the aff of support. I just saw a post where something was said about it being rejected and a RFE sent, and then another post about the interviewing officer wanting copies of jewelry receipts. (which I find a bit odd to want as evidence for the file) so my first thought was a possible financial concern of fraud payments but perhaps the jewelry was also purchased during this 'separation period' of him and his ex and its more an issue of conflicting dates.

[Usagi_tsukino 89]

Well it doesnt matter if the ex applied under the 5 year rule or the 3 year rule- if they were still legally married which they were- I understand they were separated and you were living with him at the time, but she was still his legal wife.

The 3yr/5yr thing is just if you are still married and together a LPR can apply at the 3yr mark. If not they can apply at the 5yr mark. So your marital status is relevant to make you eligible to apply under 3 yrs. However when you apply at the 5yr mark (even though its based on meeting 5yrs and not through 3yrs of being married) they still ask you on the forms and stuff about your marital status. Its not relevant to be eligible to apply- but its still part of "who you are"

She would have had to state "married" because she was still legally married. Were their tax returns joint up until the divorce or up until the separation? Did she apply before or after they separated? (it can take about a year to process the forms so if she became a citizen in '12 she may have applied in '11).

Yeah i'm pretty sure she stated married since she was... i don't know if she mentioned anywhere that they were separated. She applied after they separated. They filed taxes separately once they got separated.

It is common in naturalization interviews (even those using the 5yr eligibility) to be questioned on their marriage that obtained them the GC. Some people feel this is not fair because they arent using the 3yr eligibility so the marriage (whatever status it currently is) shouldnt matter anymore- but it does. Citizenship is a different kind of benefit where they review you a bit differently you can say. Theres more scrutiny on your moral character. Your past dealings with immigration are fair play. If the marriage that gave you the GC broke down (potentially after going through roc for many) they can question you about it and do in many cases.

Either way the USC spouse has no involvement in the actual citizenship process whether its at 3yrs or 5yrs. They dont sign anything or attend any interviews. So like I said, perhaps she submitted evidence that contradicts or overlaps some of the time you are claiming to have a legit relationship.

Oh and I really dont know about the RFE for the aff of support. The search function on VJ is a bit wonky and only goes back so far. I dont really know what went on with your RFE about the aff of support. I just saw a post where something was said about it being rejected and a RFE sent, and then another post about the interviewing officer wanting copies of jewelry receipts. (which I find a bit odd to want as evidence for the file) so my first thought was a possible financial concern of fraud payments but perhaps the jewelry was also purchased during this 'separation period' of him and his ex and its more an issue of conflicting dates.

Oh ok it must be my post about the most recent RFE (from aug 9 2016). They asked for a lot of weird stuff, like the prof that we jointly own a tv. How on Earth can we prove that? lol

So i don't get it then. Do they think that our marriage is fake because we started dating when he was legally married or may be theirs?

[Ash.1101 1,755]

One thing I had read before is that people think they get denied because they answer things not 100%, but it's not always the case. They don't -expect- you to answer 100% and that answering 100% can actually look bad if it's something that seems like it was coached. There was an article done by a prior stokes interviewer that pretty much said all this, they trust the couple who seems like they're actually a couple with a few off answers, than a couple who doesn't seem to mesh with perfect answers.

There's probably something else that you don't know, I doubt it's those three answers being wrong, there's something else, either information you don't have access too (like the ex's naturalization interview) or something you don't know about because no one's talking about it (could be anything).

Honestly, your time line is pure chaos, while it may seem like they weren't doing anything in that time, it's possible that in all of that they were doing some heavy research on things you don't know about. I'm curious on if they would have told you to have a stokes if you hadn't have gone to the USCIS office.

[Usagi_tsukino 89]

I'm curious on if they would have told you to have a stokes if you hadn't have gone to the USCIS office.

Me too, actually! They gave us RFE when we went to the office, and scheduled for the interview when we went to the office as well. Both things happened when we got to talk to our officer.

[Usagi_tsukino 89]

How can they deny OUR case if SHE possibly said something that wasn't true (like if they still lived together...) without even clarifying this with my husband first......

[geowrian 22,335]

How can they deny OUR case if SHE possibly said something that wasn't true (like if they still lived together...) without even clarifying this with my husband first......

Not implying this is even the cause, but...because they don't know which story is true. Maybe your husband falsified? Maybe she did? That's a discrepancy that needs to be resolved. The burden of proof is on you. That said....I really hope if that is the case that they tell you what the problem is so you can resolve it.