Charleston Shooting Reignites Debate About Confederate Flag

[Rob L 3,811]

Most if not almost all people in Texas are very proud of what the Texas flag represents, it's probably the most popular and easily recognized state flag in the USA.

We have all type of flags displayed, and it's our right to display them. I see gay flag, Mexican flag, even some pirate flags displayed at lakes, I don't get all worked up about them

I will support your right to fly the rebel war banner over the state dome of Texas if you help get this flown over the state capitol on Gay Pride and International talk like a pirate day(s)

Edited June 22, 2015 by Rob L

[elmcitymaven 9,711]

So I asked my beloved, a Tennessean of Tennessean stock, for his impressions on whether only "true Southerners" whose ancestors had fought in the War of Northern Aggression Civil War got to have an opinion about removing the Confederate Flag, and whether or not "heritage, not hate" was a valid point of view:

No, actually, we lost the war. We get no say in the matter. Or, rather, our side.

If you'd like to press the issue, please issue a press release and go shoot up a national guard armory, but give us time to watch it on the news live. Also, please publish a manifesto.

[JohnR! 5,495]

Your beloved Tennessean is right. The South lost, and since it's been over 150 years ago, there is no 'we' lost. None of us was there. 'They' lost. The people of the south, of a 150 years ago, lost their war. They were defeated by the same power that would later defeat the Nazis and the Japanese during WWII.

Considering they are all dead and long gone, it would behoove that many followed on their footsteps, and got over it. The only heritage the Confederate flag conotes, it shares with the Nazi and the hammer & sickle standards. It's a heritage of prejudice and bigotry. The educationally challenged of the south have as many reasons to be proud of it as a Nazi would of the swastika.

So I asked my beloved, a Tennessean of Tennessean stock, for his impressions on whether only "true Southerners" whose ancestors had fought in the War of Northern Aggression Civil War got to have an opinion about removing the Confederate Flag, and whether or not "heritage, not hate" was a valid point of view:

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/charleston-church-shooting/south-carolina-gov-nikki-haley-calls-removal-confederate-flag-state-n379801

South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley Calls for Removal of Confederate Flag From State Capitol

South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley called for the removal of the Confederate flag from the grounds of the state Capitol Monday, less than a week after a 21-year-old white man gunned down nine people at a historic African American church.

Support for the flag to come down from leaders around the state and around the country has been steadily growing in the wake of the devastating attack.

"Today, we are here in a moment of unity in our state, without ill will, to say it is time to move the flag from the Capitol grounds," Haley said during a news conference attended by Republican senators Lindsey Graham and Tim Scott, along with other state leaders.

The announcement was met by applause and cheers from those in attendance.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Your beloved Tennessean is right. The South lost, and since it's been over 150 years ago, there is no 'we' lost. None of us was there. 'They' lost. The people of the south, of a 150 years ago, lost their war. They were defeated by the same power that would later defeat the Nazis and the Japanese during WWII.

Considering they are all dead and long gone, it would behoove that many followed on their footsteps, and got over it. The only heritage the Confederate flag conotes, it shares with the Nazi and the hammer & sickle standards. It's a heritage of prejudice and bigotry. The educationally challenged of the south have as many reasons to be proud of it as a Nazi would of the swastika.

It's only been 150 years. Southern folk are slow, they just haven't grasped it yet.

[JohnR! 5,495]

It's really not all that complicated now, is it?

It's only been 150 years. Southern folk are slow, they just haven't grasped it yet.

[CarlosAndSveta 808]

Got you.

So basically your family had nothing to do with civil war.

I have some old tin type phonts of family members posing in their confederate uniforms.

This is why I say the Confederate Flag represents heritage and southern tradition to me and many who don't see the flag as a issue....

I'm glad that my ancestors had nothing to do with the Civil War but if they had I don't think I would be proud that they had to fight in that war as part of the Confederacy. I see nothing to be proud of in a country whose foundation was based on racism. Here is an article you should read:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/19/1394636/-The-Confederacy-is-not-our-heritage?detail=email

The Confederacy is not our heritage

I grew up in Kentucky barely 30 miles from the Jefferson Davis Monument. I've strolled the cemeteries full of time-rounded headstones and walked the battlefields where uniform buttons and the pale oxidized lumps of Minie balls still peek from the ground after a hard rain. I've watched reenactors run screaming over hills and heard the gut-punch thump of a period canon fired in memorial at sunset.

But the Confederacy is not my heritage. It's not anyone's heritage. The Confederacy is our shame. In the whole of the Confederacy, there is not one thing to be proud of. Not the men. Not their actions. Certainly not the ideals.

You'll see people today proclaiming that the Confederacy was launched over an issue of "state's rights," or on some esoteric principle. No. That idea didn't even appear until decades after the hot portion of the Civil War turned into the cooler years that have followed. You'll also see it expressed simply that the war was fought for slavery. But that's not quite right, either.

The Confederacy was launched not on a platform of slavery, but on a foundation of racism. That it maintained slavery as an institution was a feature. That it upheld racism was the design. Read the words of Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens, speaking at the Athenaeum in Savannah, Georgia:

The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. ... Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it—when the "storm came and the wind blew, it fell."

Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition.

. . . look with confidence to the ultimate universal acknowledgement of the truths upon which our system rests? It is the first government ever instituted upon the principles in strict conformity to nature, and the ordination of Providence, in furnishing the materials of human society. Many governments have been founded upon the principle of the subordination and serfdom of certain classes of the same race; such were and are in violation of the laws of nature. Our system commits no such violation of nature's laws.

Read that again.

• The Founding Fathers accepted slavery into the Union, but believed it was both evil and on its way out.

• The Confederacy was founded on the idea that "all men are created equal" is "fundamentally wrong."

• The Confederacy has its "cornerstone" entirely on racial inequality.

• The Confederacy was "founded upon exactly the opposite ideas" of the United States.

This isn't the voice of some latter-day apologist who dreamed up noble phrases to paint over events of the time. This is the reality. This is what the men who carried out this treason believed. This is what the men who carried out this treason said. This is what the men who carried out this treason acted to achieve.

There is, in the whole Confederate enterprise, not one admirable notion. Is it part of our history? Yes, it is, to our everlasting shame. It's a part of our history the same way that the apartheid state is a part of South African history. It's a part of our history the same way that the Nazi Reich is a part of German history. It's a part of our history that should embarrass us.

It's the part of our history in which traitors who not only didn't believe in the American union, but also didn't believe in the basic ideals of America, formed a state whose core was nothing less than pure racism.

It should be no more acceptable to wave a Confederate flag in the United States than it is to fly a swastika. No more acceptable to proclaim yourself sympathetic to the Confederate cause than to proclaim yourself a supporter of ISIS. There is no moral difference. None. These are the banners of the enemies of our nation and of our ideals—enemies whose existence is based on inequality and subjugation.

Romanticizing these causes isn't admirable, it's an illness.

[Sousuke 1,214]

Supposedly I had an ancestor who survived Andersonville prison but I've never really looked into it.

[Boiler 43,430]

Does raise the question as to what constitutes winning and losing.

We seem to be moving from Empires lasting centuries to decades. Any victory is never for ever so why should the US one over the Southern States be considered any different to say Iraq?

[decocker 7,198]

Does raise the question as to what constitutes winning and losing.

We seem to be moving from Empires lasting centuries to decades. Any victory is never for ever so why should the US one over the Southern States be considered any different to say Iraq?

[Jacque67 7,328]

Personally I always preferred Inspector Morse to Detective Colombo. Don't know why people repond to Boiler.

[Kamikaze 2]

Does raise the question as to what constitutes winning and losing.

We seem to be moving from Empires lasting centuries to decades. Any victory is never for ever so why should the US one over the Southern States be considered any different to say Iraq?

Indeed. Remember Pearl Harbour;)

[JohnR! 5,495]

+1000! :thumbs: :thumbs:

I'm glad that my ancestors had nothing to do with the Civil War but if they had I don't think I would be proud that they had to fight in that war as part of the Confederacy. I see nothing to be proud of in a country whose foundation was based on racism. Here is an article you should read:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/19/1394636/-The-Confederacy-is-not-our-heritage?detail=email

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/22/politics/confederate-flag-walmart-south-carolina/

Walmart, Sears to stop selling Confederate flag merchandise

(CNN)Walmart and Sears, two of the country's largest retailers, will remove all Confederate flag merchandise from their stores.

The announcements are the latest indication that the flag, a symbol of the slave-holding South, has become toxic in the aftermath of a shooting last week at a historic African-American church in Charleston, South Carolina. Gov. Nikki Haley announced in a Monday afternoon news conference that she supports removing the Confederate flag from the state capitol grounds.

As of Monday afternoon, Walmart.com carried the Confederate flag as well as attire featuring the flag's design, such as T-shirts and belt buckles.

"We never want to offend anyone with the products that we offer. We have taken steps to remove all items promoting the confederate flag from our assortment -- whether in our stores or on our web site," said Walmart spokesman Brian Nick. "We have a process in place to help lead us to the right decisions when it comes to the merchandise we sell. Still, at times, items make their way into our assortment improperly -- this is one of those instances."

Edited June 23, 2015 by JohnR!

[Darnell 8,478]

Indeed. Remember Pearl Harbour;)

some of us (well, most of us) don't spell it that way, so its then difficult to be remembered in that label.

Harbor, Y'all ! Harbor !

Personally I always preferred Inspector Morse to Detective Colombo. Don't know why people repond to Boiler.

Morse was a hottie ! I find I am resembling him more and more as I am NOT aging gracefully.

[Boiler 43,430]

Another vote for Morse, classic and an area I was familiar with which always helps.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

Democrats placed the flag on the SC statehouse.

Ignorance will get you nowhere.

------------------

http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/06/22/416548613/the-complicated-political-history-of-the-confederate-flag

Why is it flying at the Statehouse in Columbia, SC

The flag was first flown over the state Capitol dome (passed by the Democratic Legislature) in 1962 to mark the centennial of the start of the Civil War, but many saw it as a reaction to the civil-rights movement and school desegregation. For nearly four decades, it continued to be a controversial issue in the Palmetto State. A 1994 nonbinding referendum placed on the GOP primary ballot found that three-in-four voters said the flag should keep flying. That same year, black ministers and the NAACP threatened a boycott of the state if the flag didn't come down, and business leaders sued to remove the flag.

But in 2000, a compromise was reached the battle flag would be removed from atop the dome and a smaller, square version would be placed at a less-prominent place on the Statehouse grounds on a 20-foot pole next to the 30-foot Confederate monument. But that didn't end the controversy, and many years of protests, criticism and boycotts followed.