Obama Executive Privilege Asserted Over Fast And Furious Documents

[one...two...tree 2,762]

So, you're okay with AG Holder lying under oath to the Congressional Oversight Committee?

The testimony to that effect has been widely reported and it's the only reason Issa has been able to push this so hard. If Eric Holder had admitted lying, and maybe apologized to the families of Brian Terry and Jaime Zapata, this would have died quietly and been long forgotten come election time.

But he couldn't. Now, by bailing out the AG by invoking Executive Privilege, the President has opened up the White House to suspicion of direct involvement in the botched operation, regardless of whether there was any White House involvement or not. And it was all so unnecessary, if only Holder had respected the office of Attorney General and the oath he took before testifying to the Committee.

You assume that Holder knowingly and willingly lied to Darrell Issa about the date of when he first new about the gun running scheme being run by the ATF. So, if that's what you really meant, then you should qualify your statement instead of making that claim as it if were fact. But since you're speculating, I'll give you my speculation - I think Holder didn't personally read any reports about the ATF operation, but was instead briefed about it by his staff. He would gain nothing from knowingly lying about when he first knew about it, but now Issa and the Republicans can dig in and try to paint Holder as being up to no good when the absurdity is that this ATF operation has been going on for years, under the previous administration.

It's easy to assume that the chief lawyer of the U.S. government must personally know everything the U.S. government is involved in and be able to personally manage it, but that's neither rational nor reasonable. If Issa were truly interested in why the ATF operation was in place all these years prior to him becoming the chairman of the Congressional Oversight Committee, he would focus his efforts in fact finding in that direction, but he won't. He won't because he is purely politically motivated to bring down the Obama Administration, and he managed to get a "gotcha moment" with Holder not being able to give an accurate date as to when he was briefed on an ATF operation that's been going on since the previous administration. And there's your smoking gun. More like Issa blowing smoke out of his ####### in a horse and pony show.

[Karee 4,189]

You assume that Holder knowingly and willingly lied to Darrell Issa about the date of when he first new about the gun running scheme being run by the ATF. So, if that's what you really meant, then you should qualify your statement instead of making that claim as it if were fact. But since you're speculating, I'll give you my speculation - I think Holder didn't personally read any reports about the ATF operation, but was instead briefed about it by his staff. He would gain nothing from knowingly lying about when he first knew about it, but now Issa and the Republicans can dig in and try to paint Holder as being up to no good when the absurdity is that this ATF operation has been going on for years, under the previous administration.

It's easy to assume that the chief lawyer of the U.S. government must personally know everything the U.S. government is involved in and be able to personally manage it, but that's neither rational nor reasonable. If Issa were truly interested in why the ATF operation was in place all these years prior to him becoming the chairman of the Congressional Oversight Committee, he would focus his efforts in fact finding in that direction, but he won't. He won't because he is purely politically motivated to bring down the Obama Administration, and he managed to get a "gotcha moment" with Holder not being able to give an accurate date as to when he was briefed on an ATF operation that's been going on since the previous administration. And there's your smoking gun. More like Issa blowing smoke out of his ####### in a horse and pony show.

Steven that's BS and you know it. You have an AG refusing to testify in front of congress bottom line.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Steven that's BS and you know it. You have an AG refusing to testify in front of congress bottom line.

What is he refusing to testify? When he and his wife last had sex followed by pillow talk? This is laughable. If this were an actual trial, Issa would be held in contempt for badgering the witness and demanding information that is neither relevant to the case nor has he established any convincing evidence that the information the witness has already provided is not sufficient. This is like a kangaroo court, demanding the witness incriminate himself about anything, just in the hope of finding something to prosecute him with - only what Issa really wants to do is try to bring down the Obama Administration during an election year.

After 8 years, with all the lies and deception from the Bush Administration over the war in Iraq, and the Right Wingers are outraged that Holder couldn't give an accurate personal recollection of when he first knew about an ATF operation that's been in place since Bush was in the White House? Yawn.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Mister Fancypants

[Leatherneck 693]

1. The Mexican govt gets pissed off over this -- A US Ambassador resigns.

2. Firearms are allowed to be smuggled into Mexico without the knowledge and cooperation of Mexican officials.

3. US govt agencies direct gun stores to sale firearms to "straw buyers" which they know will be going to criminal drug gangs, hitmen & murderers in MX.

4. More than 200 dead Mexican citizens are dead.

5. Two US agents, Jaime Zapata and Bryan Terry are killed with firearms linked to F&F.

6. ATF discussed using the sales as part of a push for new gun control, which are now in place.

7. Nopalitano knew about F&F in Dec 2010 after the death of Brain Terry.

8. According to CBS, internal DOJ documents show that 10 months before his May 3, 2010 testimony, Holder began receiving memos discussing F&F from the head of National Drug Intelligence Center and Asst. AG Lanny Breuer.

9. We're supposed to believe the then Deputy AG Gary Grinder got briefed on F&F, but not the AG himself -- really, so the Deputy did not brief his boss? Yeah, right!

Holder had full knowledge of Project Gunrunner, yet we are to believe (as some here seem to believe) he had no knowledge of F&F until "over the last few weeks" according to his May 3, 2011 Congressional testimony.

So Congress, the Zapata family, the Terry family, the families of the dead Mexican citizens, the Mexican govt and the American people shouldn't expect to know who the hell authorized such an operation or who's head should roll?

Oh, then I guess we have to also pretend this press briefing never happened. Pay attention @ 0:42 - 1:00.

[Leatherneck 693]

What is he refusing to testify? When he and his wife last had sex followed by pillow talk? This is laughable. If this were an actual trial, Issa would be held in contempt for badgering the witness and demanding information that is neither relevant to the case nor has he established any convincing evidence that the information the witness has already provided is not sufficient. This is like a kangaroo court, demanding the witness incriminate himself about anything, just in the hope of finding something to prosecute him with - only what Issa really wants to do is try to bring down the Obama Administration during an election year.

After 8 years, with all the lies and deception from the Bush Administration over the war in Iraq, and the Right Wingers are outraged that Holder couldn't give an accurate personal recollection of when he first knew about an ATF operation that's been in place since Bush was in the White House? Yawn.

This is not exactly correct. "Project Gunrunner" was implemented under the Bush administration, operation Wide Receiver was concieved in 2005, launched in 2006 and shut down in 2007 after it was botched. There was no other operation under "Project Gunrunner" after that under Bush.

Fast and Furious is owned 100% by the Obama administration and Holder, which was not even remotely similar to Wide receiver in scale, scope and intent. F&F started up in 2009, long after Wide Receiver was shut down.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

The NRA got what they wanted. For all these years saying that guns don't kill every time federal and state legislation is considered to thwart criminals from getting their hands on guns, the Federal Gov't. proved them wrong. The statistics are clear. Easier access to guns leads to more violent criminal activity. Of course, I'm sure the NRA will now try to claim that the ATF wants to take away all our guns, but I think people will start to wise up to their duplicity. Either access to guns increases violence or it doesn't. If they want to crucify Holder and the ATF for allowing guns into the hands of drug cartels, then they should own up to that fact - guns kill.

[Leatherneck 693]

Why deflect from the main issue by dragging the NRA into this? Bottom line is, Mexico has 200+ citizens dead and we have 2 murdered federal agents, done so because govt agencies conspired to sale guns to criminals. Where the bigger goal was to introduce more gun control, but putting that aside, families are forever impacted by the careless decisions of those given the responsibility to exercise better judgement.

Just as I or anyone else would be held accountable for doing the exact same... those at the top in govt who authorized such a 'beyond stupid' idea, need to be held accountable. Who could be against accountability?

Criminals with access to firearms increases violence, surely you know the difference.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Leatherneck

[Pooky 3,343]

The NRA got what they wanted. For all these years saying that guns don't kill every time federal and state legislation is considered to thwart criminals from getting their hands on guns, the Federal Gov't. proved them wrong. The statistics are clear. Easier access to guns leads to more violent criminal activity. Of course, I'm sure the NRA will now try to claim that the ATF wants to take away all our guns, but I think people will start to wise up to their duplicity. Either access to guns increases violence or it doesn't. If they want to crucify Holder and the ATF for allowing guns into the hands of drug cartels, then they should own up to that fact - guns kill.

If AG Holder had not lied to the Oversight Committee, this would have slipped quietly into the night with little or no fuss.

The Congressional Oversight Committee is hounding Eric Holder because he lied under oath. At this point, the guns are secondary and a mere distraction from the more pressing issue. The real issue is that the country's chief legal officer lied under oath. He lied to Congress and now the President believes he should be able to do so with impunity. If you can't see that this is a serious problem, then you really don't respect the role of honesty and the truth in carrying out the duties and responsibilities of the office of the Attorney General.

[Karee 4,189]

If AG Holder had not lied to the Oversight Committee, this would have slipped quietly into the night with little or no fuss.

The Congressional Oversight Committee is hounding Eric Holder because he lied under oath. At this point, the guns are secondary and a mere distraction from the more pressing issue. The real issue is that the country's chief legal officer lied under oath. He lied to Congress and now the President believes he should be able to do so with impunity. If you can't see that this is a serious problem, then you really don't respect the role of honesty and the truth in carrying out the duties and responsibilities of the office of the Attorney General.

Exactly! It's pretty obvious he lied once. I don't care if Bush did it 1000 times. Doesn't make it right.

[Karee 4,189]

What is he refusing to testify? When he and his wife last had sex followed by pillow talk? This is laughable. If this were an actual trial, Issa would be held in contempt for badgering the witness and demanding information that is neither relevant to the case nor has he established any convincing evidence that the information the witness has already provided is not sufficient. This is like a kangaroo court, demanding the witness incriminate himself about anything, just in the hope of finding something to prosecute him with - only what Issa really wants to do is try to bring down the Obama Administration during an election year.

After 8 years, with all the lies and deception from the Bush Administration over the war in Iraq, and the Right Wingers are outraged that Holder couldn't give an accurate personal recollection of when he first knew about an ATF operation that's been in place since Bush was in the White House? Yawn.

It's a Congressional action. Holder didn't say anything. Nothing at all. Your election year point is pretty funny considering the guy just made millions of illegals, legal. Talk about election year tactics.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

If AG Holder had not lied to the Oversight Committee, this would have slipped quietly into the night with little or no fuss.

The Congressional Oversight Committee is hounding Eric Holder because he lied under oath. At this point, the guns are secondary and a mere distraction from the more pressing issue. The real issue is that the country's chief legal officer lied under oath. He lied to Congress and now the President believes he should be able to do so with impunity. If you can't see that this is a serious problem, then you really don't respect the role of honesty and the truth in carrying out the duties and responsibilities of the office of the Attorney General.

You keep making stating that falsehood. Holder did NOT lie under oath, unless what you really mean is that you assume he deliberately gave Issa the wrong date as to when he first knew about the ATF operation. You can keep pretending that your opinion is fact, but that doesn't make it fact. It's conjecture and nothing more.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Why deflect from the main issue by dragging the NRA into this? Bottom line is, Mexico has 200+ citizens dead and we have 2 murdered federal agents, done so because govt agencies conspired to sale guns to criminals. Where the bigger goal was to introduce more gun control, but putting that aside, families are forever impacted by the careless decisions of those given the responsibility to exercise better judgement.

Just as I or anyone else would be held accountable for doing the exact same... those at the top in govt who authorized such a 'beyond stupid' idea, need to be held accountable. Who could be against accountability?

Criminals with access to firearms increases violence, surely you know the difference.

So you agree that access to guns leads to more crime? Because the answer to that question is at the heart of this whole argument and why the NRA has lobbied hard and has lined the pockets of politicians in Washington to cripple the ATF's authority over regulating gun sales.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Mister Fancypants

[Karee 4,189]

You keep making stating that falsehood. Holder did NOT lie under oath, unless what you really mean is that you assume he deliberately gave Issa the wrong date as to when he first knew about the ATF operation. You can keep pretending that your opinion is fact, but that doesn't make it fact. It's conjecture and nothing more.

I hope there's an ESL class in your neighborhood. The guy shut up and invoked executive privilege.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Issa Peddled Conspiracy Theory at NRA Convention, Called Fast and Furious an Attack on the 2nd Amendment

Rep. Darrell Issa, Republican chair of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, spoke at the NRA's mid-April national convention in St. Louis and appeared on NRA News' Cam & Company to discuss Fast and Furious. News coverage of the convention focused on the extreme rhetoric of NRA board member Ted Nugent, but Issa made some rather explosive comments of his own.

Fast and Furious was launched under the Bush administration, and continued by the Obama administration, to investigate and undermine the smuggling of guns from the US to Mexico by drug cartels. However, the government lost track of many of the guns sold through the program, and some were connected to the murders of Mexican citizens and a US federal agent. Issa thinks he knows why. Issa, speaking to the NRA faithful, advanced the baseless and reckless conspiracy theory that the Obama administration intentionally lost track of guns sold through the program in order to boost gun violence and clear the way for an assault weapons ban. Issa posed this as a rhetorical question and then answered it:

They've never answered the question, "What were they thinking of?" Could it be that what they really were thinking of was in fact to use this walking of guns in order to promote an assault weapons ban. Many think so. And they haven't come up with an explanation that would cause any of us not to agree.

Later in the interview, Issa suggested that the Obama administration let people die in order to promote gun control and then described Fast and Furious explicitly as part of a larger assault on the Second Amendment:

We have to expect law enforcement to hold us accountable under fair laws but also hold the bad guys accountable rather than allowing bad things to happen and justifying new laws against law-abiding citizens. […] This administration has trampled on the Constitution, on the First Amendment, on religious rights, and if you don't think that this Fast and Furious and things like it are the beginning of an attack in the second term on the Second Amendment, you really haven't evaluated this president.

http://www.rightwing...k-2nd-amendment

Edited June 24, 2012 by Mister Fancypants

[Karee 4,189]

http://www.rightwing...k-2nd-amendment

Get with Charles. I hear he's teaching English now.