Wisconsin father defends family from drunk intruder

[james&olya 1,121]

Yes. I'm sure that anyone who perpetrates a violent assault against you or your family would firmly disagree that you have any right to stop their attack.

The flaw in this logic is always the assumption that the good guy will win these battles. When you endorse the wholesale arming of the populace some of these people, even if usually considered 'good guys', will under certain circumstances be motivated to believe, wrongly, that they have justification for making a physical assault on someone else. It is a not uncommon occurrence in bars, for example. And my experience is that virtually all these people felt they were in the 'right', regardless of who won! When guns are involved the outcomes become much more lethal. Since I don't frequent bars and related locales, I have little personal fear of this type of scenario. But the potential for home invasion by low-lifes who have overt criminal intent does make me consider whether I might want to join the ranks of gun-owners anyway.

[Sayha or bust. 71]

Why do plan on trying to attack them for some reason?

Nope, more interested knowing if there actually take care of the neighborhood.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Nope, more interested knowing if there actually take care of the neighborhood.

Those signs can be meaningless. I have one in my window but I don't go patroling around.

[xebec 195]

I do as well but it may be we both are unwise if we bring baseball bats to a gun fight! I have heard it said, though, that if you ever point a gun at someone you better be prepared to pull the trigger and mean it. If you are pointing a gun at someone and they have a gun as well they may well figure on shooting you immediately to save their own life. It bothers me a little understanding how even highly trained and experienced law-enforcement personnel sometimes get that decision wrong on whether and when to pull the trigger! Having an entire un-trained civilian population packing and knowing how poor some people's judgment can be and how mentally challenged and un-balanced others are, it makes me afraid we will be seeing many more such 'stand-your-ground' cases!

You are perpetuating a myth- perhaps innocently- but a myth nonetheless. Police Need More Weapons Training, Study Says National law enforcement standards require an annual re-qualification, nothing more. Almost 50% of police departments require re-qualification (note-I said re-qualification, not ongoing training) once or twice per year, and 80% of police departments require quarterly re-qualification or less. That means firing their weapon once every three months....at most. PDF here, if you want to look at it: Police Firearms Training Survey- Final Report

A police firearms instructor, who I am familiar with, bemoaned the state of police training in a major urban area. (I won't link him, or use direct quotes because he posts on an LEO forum) He told a group of firearms trainers (I work in the Summers with a small training cadre that offers police, military, and certain contractors training in rifle, pistol, and combat trauma care) about the sorry state of officer firearm competence. His points:

-Most police instructors are unsatisfied with the training budgets, and officer motivation to seek training.

-Most police departments see the firearm training budget as much less important that other forms of officer development.

-Many police departments re-qualify once per year, as required by law, for budgetary reasons.

-Most officers do not carry off-duty.

-Fewer than 10% of officers take advantage of optional firearms training offered by their departments....the 90% are satisfied to re-qualify at the minimum frequency required by their department.

-Most cops aren't "gun guys".... they don't shoot competitively or even for recreation. Many develop complacency after being on the job for months or years without once having to deploy their weapon.

There are certainly exceptions to this condition, and the focus on firearms training is improving in general. But this is the state across much of the country.

Another note. The organization I work with offers scholarships (fancy word for free training days) to enlisted military with pending deployment dates, and to law enforcement. Only a handful of cops ever show up, and these are almost always part-time SWAT (full time seem to come from departments with better training facilities and budgets).

The best shooters and general gun-handlers I encounter, both during training and competitive shooting, are "gun-guys".... mostly civilian.

[Sayha or bust. 71]

Those signs can be meaningless. I have one in my window but I don't go patroling around.

Woosh! Genious

[xebec 195]

The flaw in this logic is always the assumption that the good guy will win these battles. When you endorse the wholesale arming of the populace some of these people, even if usually considered 'good guys', will under certain circumstances be motivated to believe, wrongly, that they have justification for making a physical assault on someone else. It is a not uncommon occurrence in bars, for example. And my experience is that virtually all these people felt they were in the 'right', regardless of who won! When guns are involved the outcomes become much more lethal. Since I don't frequent bars and related locales, I have little personal fear of this type of scenario. But the potential for home invasion by low-lifes who have overt criminal intent does make me consider whether I might want to join the ranks of gun-owners anyway.

Do you have a link for this interesting claim that legal CCW holders are frequently involved in bar fights involving their weapon. You realize with the above bolded text you have made this claim. You also realize, of course, that all CCW laws (to my knowledge) preclude legal carry in "bars?" If you carried a pistol into a bar in Texas, you would be a felon. Not a legally armed citizen. Do you have any data about legally carried firearms causing an escalation of violence? The problem here is that you very likely have not been around armed civilians, and you are naturally skeptical.....perfectly normal reflex. I have been around armed people all of my life.....from hunting with my father as a child, to the infantry, to competitive shooting, to ongoing training. Most of the people I associate with carry on a regular basis. Not once in my life have I seen a (legally) armed person use their weapon inappropriately. Find a range or gun club, and expose yourself to the culture a little bit. Progressives pride themselves on open-mindedness....enlighten yourself.

Edited April 1, 2012 by xebec

[xebec 195]

Sayha or bust., on 31 March 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

James Alan Fox, a criminologist at Northeastern University in Boston. "We are indeed a safer nation than 20 years ago."

He and others give four main reasons for the decline:

• Increased incarceration, including longer sentences, that keeps more criminals off the streets.
• Improved law enforcement strategies, including advances in computer analysis and innovative technology.
• The waning of the crack cocaine epidemic that soared from 1984 to 1990, which made cocaine cheaply available in cities across the US.
• The graying of America characterized by the fastest-growing segment of the US population – baby boomers – passing the age of 50.

Hmmm I don't see anything in there findings that guns lower crime rate.

<br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 253); "><br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 253); ">That is because you chose an author with a well-known bias against civilian concealed carry..... surprise, surprise.

I'm sure he made those up. lol

Simple omission by way of bias would not require him to make anything up. Believe what you wish......I just demonstrated to you that your source is openly biased, and has a reason to ignore the current research on the relationship between concealed carry and crime.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Woosh! Genious

Well I didn't put it there. It was there before we arrived.

[james&olya 1,121]

Do you have a link for this interesting claim that legal CCW holders are frequently involved in bar fights involving their weapon. You realized with the above bolded text you have made this claim. You do realize, of course, that all CCW laws (to my knowledge) preclude legal carry in "bars?" If you carried a pistol into a bar in Texas, you would be a felon. Not a legally armed citizen. Do you have any data about legally carried firearms causing an escalation of violence? The problem here is that you very likely have not been around armed civilians, and you are naturally skeptical.....perfectly normal reflex. I have been around armed people all of my life.....from hunting with my father as a child, to the infantry, to competitive shooting, to ongoing training. Most of the people I associate with carry on a regular basis. Not once in my life have I seen a (legally) armed person use their weapon inappropriately. Find a range or gun club, and expose yourself to the culture a little bit. Progressives pride themselves on open-mindedness....enlighten yourself.

No. I did NOT make that claim! I claimed nothing more than what was explicitly stated. It worries me, though, when you can read so much into what I said that just is not there! If you are packing and you tend to 'reason' this way in your encounters, you may lead yourself to believe you are being threatened when no actual threat is there! Two such individuals like yourself, with some sort of silly misunderstanding, could all too easily result in one of you in a body bag!

You do not become a felon in any state until you have been tried and convicted! Even Texas!

Yes, open-mindedness is good! I continue seeking further enlightenment, even here on these pages!

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

I have 3 felonies and several misdemeanor and I'm allowed to carry a concealed weapon along with packing it on my hip for everyone to see. No CCW needed here and all you have to do is fine the right judge to sign you off. It's easy as pie.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

I have 3 felonies and several misdemeanor and I'm allowed to carry a concealed weapon along with packing it on my hip for everyone to see. No CCW needed here and all you have to do is fine the right judge to sign you off. It's easy as pie.

They are probably all non-violent right?

[xebec 195]

No. I did NOT make that claim! I claimed nothing more than what was explicitly stated. It worries me, though, when you can read so much into what I said that just is not there! If you are packing and you tend to 'reason' this way in your encounters, you may lead yourself to believe you are being threatened when no actual threat is there! Two such individuals like yourself, with some sort of silly misunderstanding, could all too easily result in one of you in a body bag!

You do not become a felon in any state until you have been tried and convicted! Even Texas!

Yes, open-mindedness is good! I continue seeking further enlightenment, even here on these pages!

Let me spell it out for you:

You said "When you endorse the wholesale arming of the populace" No one here....no one I have ever met.... No politician I know of, is endorsing the arming of people who aren't in compliance with state law concerning the carrying of a weapon. You meant CCW holders, or those in compliance with state law.

You said "some of these people, even if usually considered 'good guys'" No one here....no one I have ever met.... No politician I know of, considers people who illegally carry weapons to be "good guys." You meant CCW holders, or those in compliance with state law.

You said "[these armed people sometimes] believe, wrongly, that they have justification for making a physical assault on someone else" Criminals don't have any need for justification, or belief that they are justified. They are criminals. You meant people who have a licence to carry the arm. You meant people who are carrying their weapon "legally" (which would not be the case in a bar).

Felon- An individual who commits a crime of a serious nature, such as Burglary or murder. A person who commits a felony. (West's Encyclopedia of American Law, edition 2.)

I claimed nothing more than what was explicitly stated.

Understood. I responded appropriately.

It worries me, though, when you can read so much into what I said that just is not there! If you are packing and you tend to 'reason' this way in your encounters, you may lead yourself to believe you are being threatened when no actual threat is there! Two such individuals like yourself, with some sort of silly misunderstanding, could all too easily result in one of you in a body bag!

I reason quite well. Your chicken-little reaction to the whole matter would seem more indicative of a mentality prone to the scenario you describe above.

Edited April 1, 2012 by xebec

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

They are probably all non-violent right?

Not hardly. A few DV's, no contact order violations, along with an assault charge that I went to the joint on. And no, I haven't shot anyone lately. Stereotypes with the the court system we have in place is almost too easy. I never believe what I read in the papers after having been through the system on more than one occasion.

[Ban Hammer 12,835]

Do you have a link for this interesting claim that legal CCW holders are frequently involved in bar fights involving their weapon. You realize with the above bolded text you have made this claim. You also realize, of course, that all CCW laws (to my knowledge) preclude legal carry in "bars?" If you carried a pistol into a bar in Texas, you would be a felon. Not a legally armed citizen. Do you have any data about legally carried firearms causing an escalation of violence? The problem here is that you very likely have not been around armed civilians, and you are naturally skeptical.....perfectly normal reflex. I have been around armed people all of my life.....from hunting with my father as a child, to the infantry, to competitive shooting, to ongoing training. Most of the people I associate with carry on a regular basis. Not once in my life have I seen a (legally) armed person use their weapon inappropriately. Find a range or gun club, and expose yourself to the culture a little bit. Progressives pride themselves on open-mindedness....enlighten yourself.

kansas for one allows cch in bars.

[james&olya 1,121]

Let me spell it out for you:

You said "When you endorse the wholesale arming of the populace" No one here....no one I have ever met.... No politician I know of, is endorsing the arming of people who aren't in compliance with state law concerning the carrying of a weapon. You meant CCW holders, or those in compliance with state law.

You said "some of these people, even if usually considered 'good guys'" No one here....no one I have ever met.... No politician I know of, considers people who illegally carry weapons to be "good guys." You meant CCW holders, or those in compliance with state law.

You said "[these armed people sometimes] believe, wrongly, that they have justification for making a physical assault on someone else" Criminals don't have any need for justification, or belief that they are justified. They are criminals. You meant people who have a licence to carry the arm. You meant people who are carrying their weapon "legally" (which would not be the case in a bar).

Felon- An individual who commits a crime of a serious nature, such as Burglary or murder. A person who commits a felony. (West's Encyclopedia of American Law, edition 2.)

Understood. I responded appropriately.

I reason quite well. Your chicken-little reaction to the whole matter would seem more indicative of a mentality prone to the scenario you describe above.

Your fuzzy understanding of language and grammar is where you go wrong. I assume you are NOT a lawyer! (Neither am I) My reference to bars (which some CCW advocates believe should be OK for carrying) was to demonstrate the type of typical miscommunication and macho behavior that results in stupid fights! These encounters are by no means limited to bars. I am sure you know this!

My language about "When you endorse the wholesale arming of the populace" refers to a point in time when you (and others) advocate a point of view that widespread CCW by any eligible person is a good thing. I did not then jump forward in time to WHEN everyone is armed but rather stayed within that (present) point in time to bring up an example of the type of encounter that is common at present in many places but stereotypical for bars. I did not say that current CCW holders have often been involved thusly. I also did not refer to "these armed people"! You have to add these words to twist what I said to what you want to believe I meant! I clearly stated only that the people I have seen (often in my line of work) that have been in bar fights always believe they were in the right, at the time anyway! You have to use a lot of "you meant" statements to get what I actually said distorted into what you seem to want to believe I said! You need to read a bit more carefully and not try so hard to read between the lines!

Edited April 1, 2012 by james&olya