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confusedlassie

Just a simple tourist visa ...

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Filed: Timeline

I find your homogenized version equally offensive....were you at the interview? No. So how do YOU really know what questions were asked? You have only one other person's version upon which to base your opinion.

Round trip airline tickets are not a tie to one's country nor absolute proof that an individual will comply with the terms of a tourist visa...and money in a bank account can be emptied five minutes after visa approval.

Neither one of us knows with a certainty how the interview went...you have one edited version; I have my own thoughts based on several summers behind the lines in a couple of different consulates...observing first hand visa interviews...I never saw an interview ended after two silly questions about why and where somebody wanted to travel. I did observe countless hundreds in which the applicant was evasive or combative (or both) and far more often than not that particular approach did not lead to visa issuance.

As for the $140 and the 'two question' interview...that is laughable. You are just annoyed that your fiancee did not manage to convince the VO of his bona fides...but you don't really know why this happened. You may also be annoyed because the mere fact of your existence on this planet was not enough for your fiancee to obtain a visa....happens all the time. Your experience in these matters rests on one and only one interview that you were not even a part of.

What matters during these interviews is the judgment of the VO, not yours (nor mine). It is the responsibility of every applicant to convince a VO that they do not intend to remain in the US...and for whatever the reason(s), your fiancee was not able to do this...but I don't believe for a nanosecond that he was asked two essentially meaningless questions and then summarily refused. That is the constant refrain from those who try to shift blame for the negative outcome on an anonymous third party. Sure.

One more pertinent fact: US law states that every applicant seeking a nonimmigrant tourist visa (and some other types) are PRESUMED to be going to the United States to remain permanently, and thus are ineligible to receive said visa until such time as they are able to convince the consular officer that they INTEND to depart the United States promptly at the conclusion of a visit of appropriate duration...a law passed in 1952. So the interview does NOT begin in a neutral mode; instead, the applicant is presumed to be about to do something they have yet to do...but that is our law.

UK laws are not constructed the same; they, like so many countries, largely base their decisions upon documentary evidence whereas our laws give the authority and instruction to our consular officials to judge intent based on the interview, not on a pile of papers.

This in turn places the responsibility of overcoming the presumption of immigrant intent squarely upon the shoulders of the visa applicant - if they do not manage to convince the VO of their bona fides, then BY LAW the application is refused....period. There are nno specific bright line requirements one must comply with in order to obtain a tourist visa ('bring in the blue piece of paper or the bank account, or the title deed, etc...')...instead, the VOs are there to judge the intent of the applicant...not the veracity of ttheir documents (though that does play a role in situations in which applicants have either 'crafted' (i.e. forged) or bought counterfeit documents in a futile attempt to bolster their case...happens all over the world...papers alone do not prove intent. So hauling out a three inch thick pile of documents will not suddenly turn an unqualified applicant into a qualified one...if such papers existed (according to our laws), then every applicant on the planet would arrive at the embassy armed with those same papers....

IMHO, something went off the rails during the interview...pure and simple (after more than two questions).

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Filed: Timeline

OK so I will

tell you from my own experience with UK embassy.

The CO in UK embassy does not even come and meet the applicant, they just collect the document and that’s it.

They look at the documents that are submitted and they send you your passport back with either stamped visa or rejection letter and yet they also charge the fee.

Currently UK embassy is charge 520 pounds for the 10 yr tourist visa. US is charging $140-180 for same.

Then I should be able to say UK embassy are more notorious coz they charge 520 pound don’t even talk to me in person and don’t even give the answer on the spot. How is that fair?

Also please don’t assume that someone coming from UK or Europe would not commit visa fraud that happens all the time.

I'm sorry you've had a bad experience with the UK embassy and I agree that £520 is ridiculously expensive. I don't think it's fair that you don't even get spoken to in person. I'm not on here as a representative of the UK embassy or saying that it is fair and America is not. I was just simply annoyed at the fact that my fiance was denied a simple tourist visa and upset that an incorrect judgement was made on him. And that we have to change our honeymoon plans.

If I saw a post from you saying that you had been charged £520 for a visa by the UK embassy and no-one had even spoken to you about it, and you felt an incorrect judgement was made on you then I would actually have sympathised with you. I do sympathise with you. That is blind robbery!

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Filed: Citizen (apr) Country: Australia
Timeline
Ah well - it turns out we're not actually that bothered so we couldn't have been that desperate to go to the USA. Plus this time next year he'll have a UK passport and not need a visa anyway, so it will be easier if we ever decide to try visiting New York again.

You're referring to the VWP. Your fiance being denied a visa to the US has made him ineligible for the VWP for life. Sorry.

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Filed: Timeline

I'm sorry you've had a bad experience with the UK embassy and I agree that £520 is ridiculously expensive. I don't think it's fair that you don't even get spoken to in person. I'm not on here as a representative of the UK embassy or saying that it is fair and America is not. I was just simply annoyed at the fact that my fiance was denied a simple tourist visa and upset that an incorrect judgement was made on him. And that we have to change our honeymoon plans.

If I saw a post from you saying that you had been charged £520 for a visa by the UK embassy and no-one had even spoken to you about it, and you felt an incorrect judgement was made on you then I would actually have sympathised with you. I do sympathise with you. That is blind robbery!

My guess, for what it's worth (likely nothing!) is that whatever 'vibes' he gave off (for whatever the reasons) did not instill confidence in the VO...but let's take another look at his situation from the VO's perspective....while he is (apparently) residing in the UK with some sort of spousal/partner permit or visa, the fact remains that he is not yet married to you....you mentioned a free education, but likely at something similar to our community colleges, not an Ivy league institution (nor Oxford or Cambridge), and what about his employment, if any? Part time? Waiting tables, tending bar or driving a delivery truck (lorry)? Any of those common after school jobs one could easily walk away from.

So in spite of some money in a bank account, whether deposited locally or afar, what solid foundation might he have for returning, given the presumption of immigrant intent? Not easy to say....but whatever he has he did not convince the VO it was sufficient.

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Filed: Timeline

I find your homogenized version equally offensive....were you at the interview? No. So how do YOU really know what questions were asked? You have only one other person's version upon which to base your opinion.

Round trip airline tickets are not a tie to one's country nor absolute proof that an individual will comply with the terms of a tourist visa...and money in a bank account can be emptied five minutes after visa approval.

Neither one of us knows with a certainty how the interview went...you have one edited version; I have my own thoughts based on several summers behind the lines in a couple of different consulates...observing first hand visa interviews...I never saw an interview ended after two silly questions about why and where somebody wanted to travel. I did observe countless hundreds in which the applicant was evasive or combative (or both) and far more often than not that particular approach did not lead to visa issuance.

As for the $140 and the 'two question' interview...that is laughable. You are just annoyed that your fiancee did not manage to convince the VO of his bona fides...but you don't really know why this happened. You may also be annoyed because the mere fact of your existence on this planet was not enough for your fiancee to obtain a visa....happens all the time. Your experience in these matters rests on one and only one interview that you were not even a part of.

What matters during these interviews is the judgment of the VO, not yours (nor mine). It is the responsibility of every applicant to convince a VO that they do not intend to remain in the US...and for whatever the reason(s), your fiancee was not able to do this...but I don't believe for a nanosecond that he was asked two essentially meaningless questions and then summarily refused. That is the constant refrain from those who try to shift blame for the negative outcome on an anonymous third party. Sure.

No Noah, I was not at the interview. Yes, I only have the other person's versions of events. However, that 'other person' happens to be someone I know deeply, and trust and who has no reason or history of lying to me! Also, I have never in my life seen him being evasive and combative - he is not capable of it. Naive, flustered, confused - perhaps. Plus, I don't see why my fiance wouldn't have told me if the interviewer did ask more questions? For example - if he had asked 'what are your ties to the UK' - he would just have answered this honestly. If he had still been denied a visa after being asked these questions it would have ENHANCED the incredulity of the story.

You, on the other hand, are basing your thoughts based on someone you don't know (my fiance) versus someone else you don't know (the interviewer). But have made a baseless judgement of based on your own past experience of 'evasive and combative' applicants that you have come across in the past. Seriously? You think that is fair?

Luckily I don't care much for your opinion.

IMHO, something went off the rails during the interview...pure and simple (after more than two questions). If you had said that in the first place (minus the insistence that my fiance is lying about the questions he was asked) then I would have agreed with you. Quite plainly something did go off the rails during the interview. Personally I think it was probably the fact that he was displaying anxious behaviour due to being about to miss his train back to Scotland. Possibly that coupled with the fact that he has a lot of stamps in his passport as we travel a lot, and he has long hair etc so doesn't exactly look professional.

You are right that: What matters during these interviews is the judgment of the VO, not yours (nor mine). It is the responsibility of every applicant to convince a VO that they do not intend to remain in the US...and for whatever the reason(s), your fiancee was not able to do this... That is obviously true. But how dare you come on here and accuse him of lying to me and me of being gullible!

I am perfectly entitled to be a little upset that we are having to change our honeymoon plans based on a judgement that the interviewer has made - I am sure in good faith on his part - but that is incorrect. If you actually look back to my original post, I was actually asking if anyone knew how easy it is to get a transit visa.

Oh - my fiance just got back from work and I've ran your comments past him. The one person who was at the interview. In his words:

"I just came back home from work and realised that my fiancee is wasting her time talking to you, trying to show you our side. And it doesn't matter. I know what happened there. I don't care about your opinion. They literally didn't ask me too much - nothing about my connections here in the UK, which was apparently the reason the visa was refused. I've been to embassies in the past (UK, Australia etc) and usually you have a conversation - even if it's just 5 minutes - where they ask you things from different angles to get some details for what you're saying. Everything I say could be a lie - usually they ask a lot of questions to make sure they get the truth. For example if you say you are getting married they usually ask 'when are you getting married', 'how did you meet' etc. At the US embassy yesterday it didn't seem like they wanted to know the truth. It seemed like they made a quick judgement. I don't even understand why I'm trying to explain to somebody as narrow minded as you about my case - but you weren't there and you're calling me a liar. And you're not a good representation of your name - you are not 'comfortable' at all."

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Filed: IR-1/CR-1 Visa Country: India
Timeline

You're referring to the VWP. Your fiance being denied a visa to the US has made him ineligible for the VWP for life. Sorry.

Unfortunately at this time OP's fiancee does not hold a British passport so he would not be eligible for VWP.

He is holding passport of some other country which is not on the VWP.

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Filed: Timeline

My guess, for what it's worth (likely nothing!) is that whatever 'vibes' he gave off (for whatever the reasons) did not instill confidence in the VO...but let's take another look at his situation from the VO's perspective....while he is (apparently) residing in the UK with some sort of spousal/partner permit or visa, the fact remains that he is not yet married to you....you mentioned a free education, but likely at something similar to our community colleges, not an Ivy league institution (nor Oxford or Cambridge), and what about his employment, if any? Part time? Waiting tables, tending bar or driving a delivery truck (lorry)? Any of those common after school jobs one could easily walk away from.

So in spite of some money in a bank account, whether deposited locally or afar, what solid foundation might he have for returning, given the presumption of immigrant intent? Not easy to say....but whatever he has he did not convince the VO it was sufficient.

Yes, you are quite right. That is all true. From the VOs point of view he could look at my fiance and see all the things that you described above. Especially if he was getting 'bad vibes'. I'm quite sure that's what happened. I'm not unreasonable, I can see that. He could get the US

But from our point of view, when none of the above is true and the judgement that has been made is false, it is still frustrating. Surely you can appreciate that? Nobody likes to be judged as a potential illegal immigrant! Even actual potential illegal immigrants would find that upsetting I imagine!

Just for the record though, University is free in Scotland to residents of Scotland and other EU countries. Only international students and those from the rest of the UK pay fees. And it's not just community colleges - it's the top universities like St Andrews and Edinburgh University as well. Although it's totally besides the point, I thought I'd clear that up.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/jan/13/european-student-numbers-soar-scotland

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Filed: IR-1/CR-1 Visa Country: India
Timeline

I'm sorry you've had a bad experience with the UK embassy and I agree that £520 is ridiculously expensive. I don't think it's fair that you don't even get spoken to in person. I'm not on here as a representative of the UK embassy or saying that it is fair and America is not. I was just simply annoyed at the fact that my fiance was denied a simple tourist visa and upset that an incorrect judgement was made on him. And that we have to change our honeymoon plans.

If I saw a post from you saying that you had been charged £520 for a visa by the UK embassy and no-one had even spoken to you about it, and you felt an incorrect judgement was made on you then I would actually have sympathised with you. I do sympathise with you. That is blind robbery!

I am not saying the fees are fair or not – all I am pointing to is the mere fact that most of the embassy around the world work in the similar fashion.

They charge the applicant irrespective of visa being granted or not.

It did not matter to me if UK official met me or not, I was traveling to UK for Crown Office actually to Scotland itself for the official work purpose.

Also I did not mean to say you would be asking for asylum or anything but what I was saying is most CO’s do put all that together in assessing any case. They go with the worst case scenario and assume every applicant has immigrant intent and would jump their VISA term and would overstay in US.

Now atleast at this point you have 2 options either try again never know you might be approved – (My very first tourist visa was denied, I applied 3-4 weeks later same set of document and I was approved)

Or

Wait until your fiancée has British passport and he can travel under VWP.

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Filed: Timeline

I am not saying the fees are fair or not – all I am pointing to is the mere fact that most of the embassy around the world work in the similar fashion.

They charge the applicant irrespective of visa being granted or not.

It did not matter to me if UK official met me or not, I was traveling to UK for Crown Office actually to Scotland itself for the official work purpose.

Also I did not mean to say you would be asking for asylum or anything but what I was saying is most CO’s do put all that together in assessing any case. They go with the worst case scenario and assume every applicant has immigrant intent and would jump their VISA term and would overstay in US.

Now atleast at this point you have 2 options either try again never know you might be approved – (My very first tourist visa was denied, I applied 3-4 weeks later same set of document and I was approved)

Or

Wait until your fiancée has British passport and he can travel under VWP.

True. And true.

Most embassies around the world work in a similar fashion, I'm sure. But it is still annoying and frustrating. If I was you I'd be really angry to have been refused a tourist visa at a loss of £520 and then have it approved a few weeks later with the same documents. To me that would suggest that the UK embassy was not carrying out their duties in a consistent manner.

The annoying thing is that these places have the power so one really has no recourse to complain or appeal if they feel they've been unfairly treated. Which I think you were the first time you applied if they approved you the second time!

Anyway, the only way my fiance will apply again is if we can't change our flights with the airline. It's just too much hassle and expense to go all the way down to London again when there is no guarantee it'll be successful. We're not that desperate to visit.

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Filed: IR-1/CR-1 Visa Country: India
Timeline

True. And true.

Most embassies around the world work in a similar fashion, I'm sure. But it is still annoying and frustrating. If I was you I'd be really angry to have been refused a tourist visa at a loss of £520 and then have it approved a few weeks later with the same documents. To me that would suggest that the UK embassy was not carrying out their duties in a consistent manner.

The annoying thing is that these places have the power so one really has no recourse to complain or appeal if they feel they've been unfairly treated. Which I think you were the first time you applied if they approved you the second time!

Anyway, the only way my fiance will apply again is if we can't change our flights with the airline. It's just too much hassle and expense to go all the way down to London again when there is no guarantee it'll be successful. We're not that desperate to visit.

You are right anybody would be frustrated, just a correction not my UK visa was rejectd - as I told I was coming to UK for Crown Office that was not going to be rejected :)

It was my US visa very first time that was rejected.

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Filed: Timeline

ConfusedLassie, I understand your frustration.

I would probably try applying again, either for the B category tourist visa, or at least for a C1 transit visa to transfer flights in the US.

In the end, it doesn't matter who's stricter, the UK or the US for that matter.

What matters is you got an unexpected change of plans to your honeymoon, and you need to plan out what to do fix it. At this point, it's sort of a gamble. As you say, you could either try to find a flight with no connection to the US, or you could try again. I won't make any assumptions or judgments about anyone, but if you and your fiance honestly believe you did not get a fair treatment, I would try again. Based on the information you provide here, it sounds like he should be able to prove sufficient ties to the UK. I don't know what the CO based his/her decision on, but body language could definitely have played a part.

Your fiance has the disadvantage of being a foreign resident in a third country. He's got a tougher burden of proof than many. Being rushed, nervous etc, is often a dead giveaway to COs that something is not right.

If you can afford the $140, try again. Plan the return trip to back Scotland accordingly with plenty of time. Make sure he somehow incorporates the evidence in his answers.

Again, there are no guarantees here, and the burden of proof may be higher now that he has already been denied once. but if he, and you believe there should not be any issues at all, it's worth a try.

Edited by jhsm85
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Filed: K-1 Visa Country: Wales
Timeline

In the vast majority of cases the decision has been made before you enter the Building.

I do not know specifically why he was refused, but if nothing has changed then there is little point re applying.

He may be eligible to use the VWP with British Citizenship, but he would need to complete ESTA and a refused Visa will complicate matters.

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

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Filed: Timeline

ConfusedLassie, I understand your frustration.

I would probably try applying again, either for the B category tourist visa, or at least for a C1 transit visa to transfer flights in the US.

In the end, it doesn't matter who's stricter, the UK or the US for that matter.

What matters is you got an unexpected change of plans to your honeymoon, and you need to plan out what to do fix it. At this point, it's sort of a gamble. As you say, you could either try to find a flight with no connection to the US, or you could try again. I won't make any assumptions or judgments about anyone, but if you and your fiance honestly believe you did not get a fair treatment, I would try again. Based on the information you provide here, it sounds like he should be able to prove sufficient ties to the UK. I don't know what the CO based his/her decision on, but body language could definitely have played a part.

Your fiance has the disadvantage of being a foreign resident in a third country. He's got a tougher burden of proof than many. Being rushed, nervous etc, is often a dead giveaway to COs that something is not right.

If you can afford the $140, try again. Plan the return trip to back Scotland accordingly with plenty of time. Make sure he somehow incorporates the evidence in his answers.

Again, there are no guarantees here, and the burden of proof may be higher now that he has already been denied once. but if he, and you believe there should not be any issues at all, it's worth a try.

Thanks, that was a very useful reply.

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Filed: Citizen (apr) Country: Australia
Timeline

Unfortunately at this time OP's fiancee does not hold a British passport so he would not be eligible for VWP.

He is holding passport of some other country which is not on the VWP.

Please read the section I was replying to. She said that once he gets his UK passport (which he's eligible for in a year) he "won't need a visa". I replied that he's not eligible for the VWP (when that occurs) because of this visa denial.

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Filed: Timeline

Thanks, that was a very useful reply.

No where in any of my replies did I categorically state that your fiancee lied to you...ommitting certain details is not the same as lying. Human nature is human nature....no one wants to believe that if something unpleasant happened that they were at fault...far easier to blame some nameless other person and/or entity. Out of 6 billion people currently inhabiting planet earth, I don't believe that I would be going out on a limb to suggest that your fiancee is the only human being who would not replay an unpleasant event in a manner that would shift blame towards another, or make it seem that he was just a victim of 'injustice.'...the odds of that are about 6,000,000,000 to 1.

No doubt the VO saw his passport/visa or permit, perhaps knew what school he is attending (is he attending at either of the institutions you mentioned??) and perhaps read on his application what, if any, employment he had...and the fact remains he is not yet married to you...combined with what might have been anxiousness (fear of missing the train) or whatever might have easily projected the wrong image...and our VOs don't have the luxury of time to spend 30 minutes with each applicant.

And what neither of us knows for an absolute fact is the way he answered questions (all 'two of them')...and body language can mean a lot.

Transit visas are also subject to the very same law regarding immigrant intent.

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