Can the West defeat the Islamist threat?

[dani_christine 0]

He doesn't actually really mention "war" in any conventional sense - except to suggest at the end that our reliance on sophisticated military technologies will not win an ideological battle. He's not wrong there.

No he isn't. Religions have fought one another for millenia and they still all exist. Sadly, millions of people died for these idiotic "wars". And we don't seem to be able to learn from the past: It's a lose-lose all around.

True, but religion has far less power in Europe, politically speaking. When we got rid of monarchical systems of government, it pretty much emasculated the papacy, for example.

but, um...isn't the queen the head of the church of england?

[Fischkoepfin 1]

Oh we can't defeat them, let's just give up and die then.

now you're sounding like a liberal

Oh please, I vote Democrat and I say CRUSH the fundamentalist bastards and those who support them.

And that -while not a partisan position per se- seems to be exactly the attitude critized in the article. If we don't understand the stakes of what is being propagated as a war against Islamic fundamentalism, we're stuck in the exact same bind we've been in for the last 5 years. Islamic fundamentalism is the outgrowth of an Islamic pan-nationalist movement reacting to Western interference in the Middle East. This movement has been afoot for over 50 years, which we of course like to overlook because of the way in which the West is implicated in it.

Also, crushing fundamentalism (which as an ideology cannot be defeated with huge weapons alone as history has sufficiently proven) needs to start at home. We can't claim to oppose fundamentalism somewhere else but tolerate fundamentalism here.

Hey, I've tried to understand it. I'm sick of it. I've been living in the UK for the past five years where the Muslim community gets their knickers in a twist over ANYTHING and EVERYTHING. I am sick to goddamn death of it, and I'm tired of trying to understand it. I'm ready to turn my back on it. I give up.

You tried to understand what exactly? Why Islam has been declared the new enemy without knowing what Islam is? Or why the "Muslim community gets their knickers in a twist?" I'm sick of the whole thing too, particularly of the whining on both sides because everyone feels like they have to make too many concessions. Funny thing is, I remember a time when Muslims were actually integrated successfully into Western societies by large numbers, but that was before the whining started and before we rallied behind inefficient leaders who have themselves no clue whatsoever about the "war" they are undertaking because all they care about is their own little whiny interests (and no, I'm not just talking about Bush and his republican minions, but also politicians heading other countries in this world).

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Oh we can't defeat them, let's just give up and die then.

now you're sounding like a liberal

Oh please, I vote Democrat and I say CRUSH the fundamentalist bastards and those who support them.

And that -while not a partisan position per se- seems to be exactly the attitude critized in the article. If we don't understand the stakes of what is being propagated as a war against Islamic fundamentalism, we're stuck in the exact same bind we've been in for the last 5 years. Islamic fundamentalism is the outgrowth of an Islamic pan-nationalist movement reacting to Western interference in the Middle East. This movement has been afoot for over 50 years, which we of course like to overlook because of the way in which the West is implicated in it.

Also, crushing fundamentalism (which as an ideology cannot be defeated with huge weapons alone as history has sufficiently proven) needs to start at home. We can't claim to oppose fundamentalism somewhere else but tolerate fundamentalism here.

Hey, I've tried to understand it. I'm sick of it. I've been living in the UK for the past five years where the Muslim community gets their knickers in a twist over ANYTHING and EVERYTHING. I am sick to goddamn death of it, and I'm tired of trying to understand it. I'm ready to turn my back on it. I give up.

I'm a southerner so I didn't personally see anything like that down in my neck of the woods - down there people were more concerned about eastern europeans and asylum seekers from the former Yugoslavia.

[mmmbop1976 1]

I thought I ain't getting enough sleep these days but apparently I'm getting enough sleep to miss quite important events. Gotta ask: When did we declare war against Islam? Can someone quote something that would point me to when and where that happened?

you don't always declare war on your enemies, sometimes they declare war on you, 9/11, uss cole, 93 wtc bombing, khobar towers, african embassies, etc, etc. but it's not a war against islam, but a war against islamic extremists. if you doubt that, look at the latest al qaeda video where the #2 man says convert to islam or die. they are trying to spread islam by force, hence, islamic extremists. they are fighting strictly for the spread of islam, so the title is appropriate, and that is who we are fighting.

[Ban Hammer 12,829]

I thought I ain't getting enough sleep these days but apparently I'm getting enough sleep to miss quite important events. Gotta ask: When did we declare war against Islam? Can someone quote something that would point me to when and where that happened?

you don't always declare war on your enemies, sometimes they declare war on you, 9/11, uss cole, 93 wtc bombing, khobar towers, african embassies, etc, etc. but it's not a war against islam, but a war against islamic extremists. if you doubt that, look at the latest al qaeda video where the #2 man says convert to islam or die. they are trying to spread islam by force, hence, islamic extremists. they are fighting strictly for the spread of islam, so the title is appropriate, and that is who we are fighting.

actually, convert is incorrect, according to a discussion i had in the mena forum. as it is part of the islam belief that everyone is born a muslim, you "revert" instead of convert.........

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I think a lot of people are missing the point of the article.

The author has a point that the 'War on Terror' is being framed in ideological terms that are at odds with the issues themselves, and that the waters of the political debate are being muddied by people on both Left and Right who have nothing to bring to the table except their stale biased assumptions about Islam and Fundamentalism.

Edited September 21, 2006 by erekose

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

I think a lot of people are missing the point of the article.

The author has a point that the 'War on Terror' is being framed in ideological terms that are at odds with the issues themselves, and that the waters of the political debate are being muddied by people on both Left and Right who have nothing to bring to the table except their stale biased assumptions about Islam and Fundamentalism.

Even if this fight is one the 'west' is desitined to lose, we have to fight. The alternative to to convert to Islam. I know many females that will be abused under sharia law. I don't like it one bit.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I thought I ain't getting enough sleep these days but apparently I'm getting enough sleep to miss quite important events. Gotta ask: When did we declare war against Islam? Can someone quote something that would point me to when and where that happened?

you don't always declare war on your enemies, sometimes they declare war on you, 9/11, uss cole, 93 wtc bombing, khobar towers, african embassies, etc, etc. but it's not a war against islam, but a war against islamic extremists. if you doubt that, look at the latest al qaeda video where the #2 man says convert to islam or die. they are trying to spread islam by force, hence, islamic extremists. they are fighting strictly for the spread of islam, so the title is appropriate, and that is who we are fighting.

Regardless of what a #2 or #3 guy says in a video, 9/11 and all the other attacks you mentioned are really political, even though they use religious ideals for their justification of violence. They are not forcing us into conversion of Islam. Read the interview done with Osama back in 1997 with Peter Arnett.

(Disclaimer to the yahoo's out there: I'm highlighting what he said not because I endorse his words but pointing out what Osama's reasons were)

REPORTER: Mr. Bin Ladin, you've declared a jihad against the United States. Can you tell us why? And is the jihad directed against the US government or the United States' troops in Arabia? What about US civilians in Arabia or the people of the United States?

BIN LADIN: We declared jihad against the US government, because the US government is unjust, criminal and tyrannical. It has committed acts that are extremely unjust, hideous and criminal whether directly or through its support of the Israeli occupation of the Prophet's Night Travel Land (Palestine). And we believe the US is directly responsible for those who were killed in Palestine, Lebanon and Iraq. The mention of the US reminds us before everything else of those innocent children who were dismembered, their heads and arms cut off in the recent explosion that took place in Qana (in Lebanon). This US government abandoned even humanitarian feelings by these hideous crimes. It transgressed all bounds and behaved in a way not witnessed before by any power or any imperialist power in the world. They should have been considerate that the qibla (Mecca) of the Muslims upheaves the emotion of the entire Muslim World. Due to its subordination to the Jews the arrogance and haughtiness of the US regime has reached, to the extent that they occupied the qibla of the Muslims (Arabia) who are more than a billion in the world today. For this and other acts of aggression and injustice, we have declared jihad against the US, because in our religion it is our duty to make jihad so that God's word is the one exalted to the heights and so that we drive the Americans away from all Muslim countries. As for what you asked whether jihad is directed against US soldiers, the civilians in the land of the Two Holy Places (Saudi Arabia, Mecca and Medina) or against the civilians in America, we have focused our declaration on striking at the soldiers in the country of The Two Holy Places. The country of the Two Holy Places has in our religion a peculiarity of its own over the other Muslim countries. In our religion, it is not permissible for any non-Muslim to stay in our country. Therefore, even though American civilians are not targeted in our plan, they must leave. We do not guarantee their safety, because we are in a society of more than a billion Muslims. A reaction might take place as a result of US government's hitting Muslim civilians and executing more than 600 thousand Muslim children in Iraq by preventing food and medicine from reaching them. So, the US is responsible for any reaction, because it extended its war against troops to civilians. This is what we say. As for what you asked regarding the American people, they are not exonerated from responsibility, because they chose this government and voted for it despite their knowledge of its crimes in Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq and in other places and its support of its agent regimes who filled our prisons with our best children and scholars. We ask that may God release them.

REPORTER: Mr. Bin Ladin, will the end of the United States' presence in Saudi Arabia, their withdrawal, will that end your call for jihad against the United States and against the US ?

BIN LADIN: The cause of the reaction must be sought and the act that has triggered this reaction must be eliminated. The reaction came as a result of the US aggressive policy towards the entire Muslim world and not just towards the Arabian peninsula. So if the cause that has called for this act comes to an end, this act, in turn, will come to an end. So, the driving-away jihad against the US does not stop with its withdrawal from the Arabian peninsula, but rather it must desist from aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

He doesn't actually really mention "war" in any conventional sense - except to suggest at the end that our reliance on sophisticated military technologies will not win an ideological battle. He's not wrong there.

No he isn't. Religions have fought one another for millenia and they still all exist. Sadly, millions of people died for these idiotic "wars". And we don't seem to be able to learn from the past: It's a lose-lose all around.

True, but religion has far less power in Europe, politically speaking. When we got rid of monarchical systems of government, it pretty much emasculated the papacy, for example.

but, um...isn't the queen the head of the church of england?

I was making the point that religion has far less of a political influence in Europe today than it did in the middle ages. That is due IMO to the abolishment of monarchical systems of government. The queen has only token political authority, neither is the parliamentary system directly accountable to her approval on every issue it makes a ruling. In a similar fashion, the papacy has far less influence over European politics than he once did. While these offices still exist (Queen, Pope etc) their power is largely symbolic.

[homesick_american 1]

Oh we can't defeat them, let's just give up and die then.

now you're sounding like a liberal

Oh please, I vote Democrat and I say CRUSH the fundamentalist bastards and those who support them.

And that -while not a partisan position per se- seems to be exactly the attitude critized in the article. If we don't understand the stakes of what is being propagated as a war against Islamic fundamentalism, we're stuck in the exact same bind we've been in for the last 5 years. Islamic fundamentalism is the outgrowth of an Islamic pan-nationalist movement reacting to Western interference in the Middle East. This movement has been afoot for over 50 years, which we of course like to overlook because of the way in which the West is implicated in it.

Also, crushing fundamentalism (which as an ideology cannot be defeated with huge weapons alone as history has sufficiently proven) needs to start at home. We can't claim to oppose fundamentalism somewhere else but tolerate fundamentalism here.

Hey, I've tried to understand it. I'm sick of it. I've been living in the UK for the past five years where the Muslim community gets their knickers in a twist over ANYTHING and EVERYTHING. I am sick to goddamn death of it, and I'm tired of trying to understand it. I'm ready to turn my back on it. I give up.

You tried to understand what exactly? Why Islam has been declared the new enemy without knowing what Islam is? Or why the "Muslim community gets their knickers in a twist?" I'm sick of the whole thing too, particularly of the whining on both sides because everyone feels like they have to make too many concessions. Funny thing is, I remember a time when Muslims were actually integrated successfully into Western societies by large numbers, but that was before the whining started and before we rallied behind inefficient leaders who have themselves no clue whatsoever about the "war" they are undertaking because all they care about is their own little whiny interests (and no, I'm not just talking about Bush and his republican minions, but also politicians heading other countries in this world).

I don't mean to be rude, but please don't waste your time arguing about this with me because I don't care.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Oh we can't defeat them, let's just give up and die then.

now you're sounding like a liberal

Oh please, I vote Democrat and I say CRUSH the fundamentalist bastards and those who support them.

And that -while not a partisan position per se- seems to be exactly the attitude critized in the article. If we don't understand the stakes of what is being propagated as a war against Islamic fundamentalism, we're stuck in the exact same bind we've been in for the last 5 years. Islamic fundamentalism is the outgrowth of an Islamic pan-nationalist movement reacting to Western interference in the Middle East. This movement has been afoot for over 50 years, which we of course like to overlook because of the way in which the West is implicated in it.

Also, crushing fundamentalism (which as an ideology cannot be defeated with huge weapons alone as history has sufficiently proven) needs to start at home. We can't claim to oppose fundamentalism somewhere else but tolerate fundamentalism here.

Hey, I've tried to understand it. I'm sick of it. I've been living in the UK for the past five years where the Muslim community gets their knickers in a twist over ANYTHING and EVERYTHING. I am sick to goddamn death of it, and I'm tired of trying to understand it. I'm ready to turn my back on it. I give up.

You tried to understand what exactly? Why Islam has been declared the new enemy without knowing what Islam is? Or why the "Muslim community gets their knickers in a twist?" I'm sick of the whole thing too, particularly of the whining on both sides because everyone feels like they have to make too many concessions. Funny thing is, I remember a time when Muslims were actually integrated successfully into Western societies by large numbers, but that was before the whining started and before we rallied behind inefficient leaders who have themselves no clue whatsoever about the "war" they are undertaking because all they care about is their own little whiny interests (and no, I'm not just talking about Bush and his republican minions, but also politicians heading other countries in this world).

I don't mean to be rude, but please don't waste your time arguing about this with me because I don't care.

At which point you might ask, why bother to post a reply. If you don't care, you wouldn't take the time to post. No?

[homesick_american 1]

Oh we can't defeat them, let's just give up and die then.

now you're sounding like a liberal

Oh please, I vote Democrat and I say CRUSH the fundamentalist bastards and those who support them.

And that -while not a partisan position per se- seems to be exactly the attitude critized in the article. If we don't understand the stakes of what is being propagated as a war against Islamic fundamentalism, we're stuck in the exact same bind we've been in for the last 5 years. Islamic fundamentalism is the outgrowth of an Islamic pan-nationalist movement reacting to Western interference in the Middle East. This movement has been afoot for over 50 years, which we of course like to overlook because of the way in which the West is implicated in it.

Also, crushing fundamentalism (which as an ideology cannot be defeated with huge weapons alone as history has sufficiently proven) needs to start at home. We can't claim to oppose fundamentalism somewhere else but tolerate fundamentalism here.

Hey, I've tried to understand it. I'm sick of it. I've been living in the UK for the past five years where the Muslim community gets their knickers in a twist over ANYTHING and EVERYTHING. I am sick to goddamn death of it, and I'm tired of trying to understand it. I'm ready to turn my back on it. I give up.

You tried to understand what exactly? Why Islam has been declared the new enemy without knowing what Islam is? Or why the "Muslim community gets their knickers in a twist?" I'm sick of the whole thing too, particularly of the whining on both sides because everyone feels like they have to make too many concessions. Funny thing is, I remember a time when Muslims were actually integrated successfully into Western societies by large numbers, but that was before the whining started and before we rallied behind inefficient leaders who have themselves no clue whatsoever about the "war" they are undertaking because all they care about is their own little whiny interests (and no, I'm not just talking about Bush and his republican minions, but also politicians heading other countries in this world).

I don't mean to be rude, but please don't waste your time arguing about this with me because I don't care.

At which point you might ask, why bother to post a reply. If you don't care, you wouldn't take the time to post. No?

No, that's not true. I no longer care about why the extremists do what they do, and I don't care about understanding it. I'm just against it, plain and simple. Perhaps in the future I'll be ready to discuss the whys and hows of it again but after five years of putting up with British liberal PC hand-wringing, constant America-bashing, and nonstop Muslim community bitching, I'm sick to death of it. I still get to have an opinion, though, even if you don't agree with it.

[AnaAndDaniel 0]

I think the basic premise of the article is wrong. The atuthor does skirta bit, but in essence states that the west is at war with islam. This is incorrect. The US and some others are trying to snuff out a group of thugs who are quite adept at using civilians as shields.

It is my firm belief that the good ppl of the world(muslim, christians, and others) will find a way to at least minimize the threat these thugs currently pose.

Daniel

:energetic:

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Oh we can't defeat them, let's just give up and die then.

now you're sounding like a liberal

Oh please, I vote Democrat and I say CRUSH the fundamentalist bastards and those who support them.

And that -while not a partisan position per se- seems to be exactly the attitude critized in the article. If we don't understand the stakes of what is being propagated as a war against Islamic fundamentalism, we're stuck in the exact same bind we've been in for the last 5 years. Islamic fundamentalism is the outgrowth of an Islamic pan-nationalist movement reacting to Western interference in the Middle East. This movement has been afoot for over 50 years, which we of course like to overlook because of the way in which the West is implicated in it.

Also, crushing fundamentalism (which as an ideology cannot be defeated with huge weapons alone as history has sufficiently proven) needs to start at home. We can't claim to oppose fundamentalism somewhere else but tolerate fundamentalism here.

Hey, I've tried to understand it. I'm sick of it. I've been living in the UK for the past five years where the Muslim community gets their knickers in a twist over ANYTHING and EVERYTHING. I am sick to goddamn death of it, and I'm tired of trying to understand it. I'm ready to turn my back on it. I give up.

You tried to understand what exactly? Why Islam has been declared the new enemy without knowing what Islam is? Or why the "Muslim community gets their knickers in a twist?" I'm sick of the whole thing too, particularly of the whining on both sides because everyone feels like they have to make too many concessions. Funny thing is, I remember a time when Muslims were actually integrated successfully into Western societies by large numbers, but that was before the whining started and before we rallied behind inefficient leaders who have themselves no clue whatsoever about the "war" they are undertaking because all they care about is their own little whiny interests (and no, I'm not just talking about Bush and his republican minions, but also politicians heading other countries in this world).

I don't mean to be rude, but please don't waste your time arguing about this with me because I don't care.

At which point you might ask, why bother to post a reply. If you don't care, you wouldn't take the time to post. No?

No, that's not true. I no longer care about why the extremists do what they do, and I don't care about understanding it. I'm just against it, plain and simple. Perhaps in the future I'll be ready to discuss the whys and hows of it again but after five years of putting up with British liberal PC hand-wringing, constant America-bashing, and nonstop Muslim community bitching, I'm sick to death of it. I still get to have an opinion, though, even if you don't agree with it.

Never said you didn't - just commenting that clearly you do care otherwise you wouldn't have replied.

Did you actually read the article BTW - what do you think of it?

[homesick_american 1]

Oh we can't defeat them, let's just give up and die then.

now you're sounding like a liberal

Oh please, I vote Democrat and I say CRUSH the fundamentalist bastards and those who support them.

And that -while not a partisan position per se- seems to be exactly the attitude critized in the article. If we don't understand the stakes of what is being propagated as a war against Islamic fundamentalism, we're stuck in the exact same bind we've been in for the last 5 years. Islamic fundamentalism is the outgrowth of an Islamic pan-nationalist movement reacting to Western interference in the Middle East. This movement has been afoot for over 50 years, which we of course like to overlook because of the way in which the West is implicated in it.

Also, crushing fundamentalism (which as an ideology cannot be defeated with huge weapons alone as history has sufficiently proven) needs to start at home. We can't claim to oppose fundamentalism somewhere else but tolerate fundamentalism here.

Hey, I've tried to understand it. I'm sick of it. I've been living in the UK for the past five years where the Muslim community gets their knickers in a twist over ANYTHING and EVERYTHING. I am sick to goddamn death of it, and I'm tired of trying to understand it. I'm ready to turn my back on it. I give up.

You tried to understand what exactly? Why Islam has been declared the new enemy without knowing what Islam is? Or why the "Muslim community gets their knickers in a twist?" I'm sick of the whole thing too, particularly of the whining on both sides because everyone feels like they have to make too many concessions. Funny thing is, I remember a time when Muslims were actually integrated successfully into Western societies by large numbers, but that was before the whining started and before we rallied behind inefficient leaders who have themselves no clue whatsoever about the "war" they are undertaking because all they care about is their own little whiny interests (and no, I'm not just talking about Bush and his republican minions, but also politicians heading other countries in this world).

I don't mean to be rude, but please don't waste your time arguing about this with me because I don't care.

At which point you might ask, why bother to post a reply. If you don't care, you wouldn't take the time to post. No?

No, that's not true. I no longer care about why the extremists do what they do, and I don't care about understanding it. I'm just against it, plain and simple. Perhaps in the future I'll be ready to discuss the whys and hows of it again but after five years of putting up with British liberal PC hand-wringing, constant America-bashing, and nonstop Muslim community bitching, I'm sick to death of it. I still get to have an opinion, though, even if you don't agree with it.

Never said you didn't - just commenting that clearly you do care otherwise you wouldn't have replied.

Did you actually read the article BTW - what do you think of it?

Same as what I think of the other ones that I read in the liberal European press: YAWN.

I was against the war in Iraq before it started. I'm still against it now. I'm against the bombing and killing of innocent men, women, and children. However, that doesn't mean ###### to anyone. The terrorists don't distinguish between people who hate Islam and people who don't. They don't care what you think about anything. They can't be reasoned with or bargained with, and no matter how many of them you kill there will still be more to take their place. I don't think there is anything that the United States can REALISTICALLY do to stop that. All we can do is try to protect ourselves.

I've heard the reasons why they're mad at us. And I don't care about those reasons anymore. My basic opinion these days is '###### 'em.'