Russia demands punishment for Ukrainian nationalists

[eekee 182]

I know there are Ukrainian Catholics, but they wouldn't be under the Orthodox Church, ROC or Greek. I am a bit confused by your terminology. Are you talking about Ukrainians who follow the Pope, or not? If they want their own Orthodox church, that's not Catholic.

I'm Orthodox born and raised and live in Russia; again, it's not necessary to explain the politics of the ROC to me.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

I know there are Ukrainian Catholics, but they wouldn't be under the Orthodox Church, ROC or Greek. I am a bit confused by your terminology. Are you talking about Ukrainians who follow the Pope, or not? If they want their own Orthodox church, that's not Catholic.

I'm Orthodox born and raised and live in Russia; again, it's not necessary to explain the politics of the ROC to me.

No... In Western Ukraine there is the Greek Catholic Church...aka Ukrainian Orthodox Catholic Church. Nothing to do with the Orthodox Church ...as in the ROC. Western Ukrainians are Greek Catholic. A few names for the same church but they have zero in common with the ROC.

The ROC uses control techniques as in not allowing Ukraine to have it's own Patriarch. It's like not allowing them to practice with their own "leader so to say", but to remain under the thumb of Russia. Google it...it's a biggy in Ukraine and has been for the past decade now. Ukraine wants their own Patriarch and to be free of the ROC, and the ROC of course looks down on Ukraine as being "Little Russia" and still wants to control Ukrainians and how they practice their religion. The ROC did the same with Belarus.

I'l link you to wiki...it's quick and easy and it has references at the bottom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Orthodox_Church_-_Kiev_Patriarchate

Since his election as a Patriarch in 1995, Filaret remains very active in both church and state politics. He tried to gather around his Church all groups with a national[citation needed] orientation and all church organizations which did not have canonical recognition.[6] On the other hand, he expressed repentance for his past support of prosecution of Ukrainian national churches, the Autocephalous and the Greek Catholic.[citation needed]

He currently leads the drive for his church to become a single Ukrainian national church. His attempts to gain a canonical recognition for his church remain unsuccessful to this day and a rival Ukrainian Orthodox Church canonically linked to the Moscow Patriarchate remains the only body whose canonical standing is universally recognized by the Eastern Orthodox communion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Orthodox_Churches <----- Moscow still pulls the strings

[eekee 182]

Catholic is not Orthodox.

There are Ukrainian Catholics who follow the Pope.

There are Ukrainian Orthodox people whose churches go under the jurisdiction of the Greek Orthodox Church, but it is Greek in name only. Orthodox Catholic Church can be used but it is confusing because there are Catholics, as in follow the pope Catholics, who call themselves Orthodox Catholics.

If you're saying they are a Church that wants to be independent of Moscow AND Rome, they are Orthodox and NOT Catholic. The two churches split a thousand years ago and have different theologies. Orthodox does not mean just ROC.

Whatever, it's complicated and I need to sleep.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Catholic is not Orthodox.

There are Ukrainian Catholics who follow the Pope.

There are Ukrainian Orthodox people whose churches go under the jurisdiction of the Greek Orthodox Church, but it is Greek in name only. Orthodox Catholic Church can be used but it is confusing because there are Catholics, as in follow the pope Catholics, who call themselves Orthodox Catholics.

If you're saying they are a Church that wants to be independent of Moscow AND Rome, they are Orthodox and NOT Catholic. The two churches split a thousand years ago and have different theologies. Orthodox does not mean just ROC.

Whatever, it's complicated and I need to sleep.

When you wake up read that wiki link I posted or do a google. Ukraine wants it's own Orthodox Patriarch...they do not want to be under the Moscow Patriarch...they want their own. Like the Russian Orthodox Church, but they want the Ukrainian Orthodox Church that's under the yet still be recognized by the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople.

[eekee 182]

Yeah, I know that. I'm saying that the Greek Catholc Church is a Catholic Church (i.e., follows Rome) with Byzantine rites. This exists in Ukraine alongside Ukrainian Orthodoxy, and they are not the same thing.

[ONA 133]

Instead those people became Soviet slaves. And not many people from Lviv sided with the Soviets. They fought with the Germans, and then the proceeded to fight against the Germans, and then fought both the Germans and Soviets at the same time.

But I agree that they shouldn't have done what they did with the Victory Day celebration. On the other hand Lviv might not be such a good choice to have such a celebration. Further east would make more sense imo.

I said that I meant actual slaves, not people deprived of some freedoms. Nazis didn't think that the Slavic nation was as advanced as them that's why they wanted to kill most of them and have some as their slaves. Even Stalin didn't have such a cruel plan.

And as for celebrations - there is a law in Ukraine that people can celebrate the Victory Day in Kiev and any other city. (I can copy it here, but it's in Ukrainian). And people were celebrating the Victory Day every year in Kiev, Lviv and other cities. And this year it suddenly became "not a good choice"?

If it were only that simple. In case you missed it, the people of Western Ukraine fought against the Soviets, not with them. Western Ukraine was seeking independence from Poland, then later the Soviets, then the Germans, and then the Soviets again. They fought pretty much everybody for the fact they are an independent minded people who don't want to be anyones wh0res. They just want to be Ukrainians who speak and write Ukrainian in an independent Ukraine.

A little problem here - they pretty much... were never independent. Kievan Rus, Poland and Lithuania, Austro-Hungary, Poland, USSR... How come they only hate Russians? Weird, huh?

They weren't allowed to speak Belarusian at work, school, and in the government for many a year. Same with Ukraine. It would be the equivalent if the Chinese were to take over the US and ban English.

That's a lie. Concerning Ukraine anyway it's a big terrible lie, but you probably have fallen for the anti-Russian propaganda.

I said it before and I'm going to say it again: my dad is Ukrainian, he grew up in Ukraine and he is telling a completely different story. In fact, my dad spoke Ukrainian a lot better than Russian, when he first came here (that's his story). And he still writes in Ukrainian better than in Russian. Why? Just because the primary language in his school (as in many other Ukrainian schools) was Ukrainian. They also had classes of the Russian language and literature - and those were the only classes they would actually speak Russian. My parents at first moved to Ukraine, but later they decided to live in Russia, cause it was too hard for my mom to do anything there without the knowledge of Ukrainian (and it was still during the Soviet times). My grandma hardly speaks Russian and she can't write in Russian at all - for some reason she wasn't forced to speak Russian at work. When my grandpa was alive, I never heard them speaking Russian. My aunt and unkle always speak Ukrainian, they also were never forced to speak Russian at school or anywhere. The knowledge of Russian let them go and work in Georgia though.

And now we came to the point: Russian was taught everywhere, because it was the language that allowed people from different republics talk to each other. That's it. Other languages weren't forbidden. In fact, in some parts of FSU the Soviet era was the time when a lot of people learned how to write in their own language. For example Kyrgys language didn't even have a standart written form until 1923, i.e. until the Soviet state didn't decide that that's what they needed.

You can blame USSR for a lot of stuff, but you can't blame them for the language policy, just cause you lack some knowledge on that matter and believe the propaganda based on lies.

Millions of Ukrainians died because of the Soviets. Starvation, deportation, etc... So yes, not a lot of Western Ukrainians see the Soviets as liberators. They only remember them as the ones who replaced the NAZI's and then proceeded to repress them by all means possible including their religion which happens to be the Greek Orthodox Catholic Church. Those churches were taken over by the Russian Orthodox Church and they were forced to practice their religion in private. Fields, barns, forest, etc..

Some of those people witnessed their relatives and priest being strung up on tree's and skinned alive by Soviet soldiers and NKVD. Hard feelings still remain and they aren't going to go away anytime soon. It's the same with in the Baltics.

Millions of Russians died because of the Soviet government, which, by the way, was not entirely Russian. Everybody struggled just the same, and you will know it, if you pay more attention to the history of Russia.

And it's not a good reason to do what the did to the veterans. Or do they think that it takes a really brave man to assault somebody 60 years older than themselves? Very "brave"

[Milushka 22]

those 20 year old brainwashed bastrads on a streets of Lviv must be imprisoned for 1. violence against civilians 2. disrespect to all the people (veterans) as well as victims, who one day gave those bastards the right and possibility to be born. 2. violence against other country diplomats - diplomatic scandal as a consequence.

liking Soviets or not, it will never change the fact of incredible heroism and sacrifice. Its all political and I dont think that any of those animals were really standing for their views, rather fed with money and BS about bright future of Ukraine with no Russian intervention, purely nazistic country in ideal. But they forget always, they will go to hell one day - straight down, because there is no excuse for violence against the ones who is weaker : children, old people.

Never respected silly decisions of that part of Ukraine as well as "type" of people living there, half ukrainian myself. Those are the shame for their nation.

Edited May 12, 2011 by Milushka

[slim 1,514]

Did this just turn into P&R?

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Yeah, I know that. I'm saying that the Greek Catholc Church is a Catholic Church (i.e., follows Rome) with Byzantine rites. This exists in Ukraine alongside Ukrainian Orthodoxy, and they are not the same thing.

You never read the links or my post.

I said that I meant actual slaves, not people deprived of some freedoms. Nazis didn't think that the Slavic nation was as advanced as them that's why they wanted to kill most of them and have some as their slaves. Even Stalin didn't have such a cruel plan.

And as for celebrations - there is a law in Ukraine that people can celebrate the Victory Day in Kiev and any other city. (I can copy it here, but it's in Ukrainian). And people were celebrating the Victory Day every year in Kiev, Lviv and other cities. And this year it suddenly became "not a good choice"?

Agreed they shouldn't have done what they did. Immature kids going in the wrong direction imo.

A little problem here - they pretty much... were never independent. Kievan Rus, Poland and Lithuania, Austro-Hungary, Poland, USSR... How come they only hate Russians? Weird, huh?

They have a hard on against anyone who they see as a thread...which is the natural law of nature imo. Right now they see Russia as a threat. Several Russian politicians have made claims on the Crim, Tsar Putin has called Ukraine "Malorussia" in the press more than once, and has even went as far as to say Ukraine wasn't a real country. He and other Russian nationalist also have a problem with Ukraine bringing back the Ukrainian language. It's Russian chauvinism. If Poland was a threat like it has been in the past...I'm sure they would have problems with the Poles. But Poland has went out of it's way trying to get Ukraine into the EU.

That's a lie. Concerning Ukraine anyway it's a big terrible lie, but you probably have fallen for the anti-Russian propaganda.

I said it before and I'm going to say it again: my dad is Ukrainian, he grew up in Ukraine and he is telling a completely different story. In fact, my dad spoke Ukrainian a lot better than Russian, when he first came here (that's his story). And he still writes in Ukrainian better than in Russian. Why? Just because the primary language in his school (as in many other Ukrainian schools) was Ukrainian. They also had classes of the Russian language and literature - and those were the only classes they would actually speak Russian. My parents at first moved to Ukraine, but later they decided to live in Russia, cause it was too hard for my mom to do anything there without the knowledge of Ukrainian (and it was still during the Soviet times). My grandma hardly speaks Russian and she can't write in Russian at all - for some reason she wasn't forced to speak Russian at work. When my grandpa was alive, I never heard them speaking Russian. My aunt and unkle always speak Ukrainian, they also were never forced to speak Russian at school or anywhere. The knowledge of Russian let them go and work in Georgia though.

And now we came to the point: Russian was taught everywhere, because it was the language that allowed people from different republics talk to each other. That's it. Other languages weren't forbidden. In fact, in some parts of FSU the Soviet era was the time when a lot of people learned how to write in their own language. For example Kyrgys language didn't even have a standart written form until 1923, i.e. until the Soviet state didn't decide that that's what they needed.

You can blame USSR for a lot of stuff, but you can't blame them for the language policy, just cause you lack some knowledge on that matter and believe the propaganda based on lies.

Not hardly. Ukrainian has been stifled since the 17th century to the Ems Ukaz to the fall of the Soviet Union. I know several Western Ukrainians what weren't allowed to do homework in Ukrainian, nor did their teachers teach class in Ukrainian...it was all done in Russian. Russians had a problem when Ukraine pushed their language, along with Estonia pushing Estonian. A peoples language is a form of heritage and can be seen as nationalistic to some chauvinistic nations. Especially a nation that looks upon another nation as "Malorussia" and thinks it's the mother of all Rus. Ukrainian language was seen to be "Western Ukrainian" and a threat to some...like to Kiev and Moscow. Belarusians and Ukrainians didn't just "give up their language over night" to help the Soviet cause. On another note there are several schools and TV channels in Ukraine that are "Russian speaking", yet no Ukrainian language speaking schools in Russia. It's the same with Belarus.

Millions of Russians died because of the Soviet government, which, by the way, was not entirely Russian. Everybody struggled just the same, and you will know it, if you pay more attention to the history of Russia.

And it's not a good reason to do what the did to the veterans. Or do they think that it takes a really brave man to assault somebody 60 years older than themselves? Very "brave"

Millions died because of Communism, but Russia faired better than most. It was the Kremlin calling the shots, it was the Kremlin who gave the orders. Moscow still does not acknowledge Holodomor when millions were starved and food was shipped to Moscow. Russia still has not formally apologized to the peoples of the Baltics for invading and occupying their nations while shipping thousands of them east in cattle cars to an almost sure death. Russia just only a few years ago acknowledged Katyn Forest Massacre even though it refuses to release all files in the matter and it wasn't all that long ago Russia finally acknowledged the Molotov - Ribbentrop Pact and supplying NAZI Germany with fuel, materials and a naval base. And for those parades with the Soviet National Anthem now known as the Russian National Anthem...ya go figure eh. How long ago was it before Lenin was finally buried ?

Again what those kids did was foolish and they should be punished for what they did. No doubt about that. Hopefully some jail time will help cure them.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

those 20 year old brainwashed bastrads on a streets of Lviv must be imprisoned for 1. violence against civilians 2. disrespect to all the people (veterans) as well as victims, who one day gave those bastards the right and possibility to be born. 2. violence against other country diplomats - diplomatic scandal as a consequence.

liking Soviets or not, it will never change the fact of incredible heroism and sacrifice. Its all political and I dont think that any of those animals were really standing for their views, rather fed with money and BS about bright future of Ukraine with no Russian intervention, purely nazistic country in ideal. But they forget always, they will go to hell one day - straight down, because there is no excuse for violence against the ones who is weaker : children, old people.

Never respected silly decisions of that part of Ukraine as well as "type" of people living there, half ukrainian myself. Those are the shame for their nation.

What those kids did should be punishable by jail time imo. They are no better than Tsar Putin's NASHI Hitler Youth Brigade..the same NASHI who physically attacked the ambassadors of Estonia and Sweden yet were released by a Russian court and no jail time served.

As far as heroism by said Soviet's, a lot of Western Ukrainians had it hard from the time Hitler and Stalin decided to hand over Western Ukraine to the Soviets. The slaughter started in 1939 for them. NKVD led the way. Last time I checked...NKVD wasn't German.

Communism and Nazism are both equally evil. Both killed millions. Hopefully those kids get steered in the right direction.

Did this just turn into P&R?

I thought about posting it in P & R, but then it would have either gotten ignored or trolled by the usual trolls up there. Touchy subject yes, but as you can by everyones post on this thread there has been some insightful post, no flaming and it's nice to have an intellectual thread in the RUB forum now and then. Everyones being civil and having a go at it at the same time.

[eekee 182]

You never read the links or my post.

yes I did. I agree with what you're saying about the ROC; obviously as someone raised in the Belarusian Greek Orthodox Church, it's something I know firsthand and have been hearing about since birth. I was just saying that the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is not part of this debate; it's Catholic and therefore falls under the jurisdiction of the Pope and is not in danger from the Moscow Patriarch.

The stuff in the Ukrainian patriarch article is just him saying sorry for being a jerk about your church, Catholics.

Edited May 12, 2011 by eekee

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

yes I did. I agree with what you're saying about the ROC; obviously as someone raised in the Belarusian Greek Orthodox Church, it's something I know firsthand and have been hearing about since birth. I was just saying that the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is not part of this debate; it's Catholic and therefore falls under the jurisdiction of the Pope and is not in danger from the Moscow Patriarch.

It's the Ukrainian Orthodox Church that wants it's own Patriarch. Nothing to do with Catholics. Atm the Ukrainians are under the Moscow Patriarch and are threatened with excommunication if they choose their own Ukrainian Patriarch seeing how they don't have one. It's the ROC atm, not the UOC like it should be.

Patriarch Kiril is only answerable to the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, and the Ukrainian Orthodox are answerable to Patriarch Kiril.

The Ukrainians don't want to be answerable to Patriarch Kiril, they want their own Patriarch. As in Patriarch of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church only answerable to the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople.

Can you blame them for not wanting to be under the ROC ? Ukraine is it's own nation/country.

[eekee 182]

Why are you repeating yourself? I said I agree with you and understand your points. I KNOW that Ukraine and Belarus have been forced under the Moscow Patriarch. Just correcting your use of Greek Catholic and Greek Orthodox Catholic.

Edited May 12, 2011 by eekee

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Why are you repeating yourself? I said I agree with you and understand your points. I KNOW that Ukraine and Belarus have been forced under the Moscow Patriarch. Just correcting your use of Greek Catholic and Greek Orthodox Catholic.

lol...sry about that.

[Milushka 22]

Those veterans who came together to celebrate 9th of May were inhabitants of Lvov, they didnt come from Russia. Those youngsters (seriously when i saw what age they were - its like " are u kidding me? they probably dont even know who Stalin was, drinking and smoking weed on the streets, thinking they are too cool to care, hiding their faces under the masks - because mother would slap if she would saw it on TV") caused destruction to their own city, hurt their own people.

There is should be no any excuse for violence, if you support those nationalists - you must have fallen for anti-russian propoganda because no adequate person will ever justify what happened in Lvov - the act against humanity doesnt have nationality just like fascism.

Edited May 13, 2011 by Milushka