If He Could, Bin Laden Would Bomb the Cordoba Initiative

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Inappropriate photo has been removed

Gee, I missed it

[Captain Oates 910]

Actually, I do have a good grasp on how it is practiced worldwide, as I also have a good grasp on the difference between what Muslims do and what Islam allows. Islam is not the religion of Saudi Arabia, Wahabbism is. Do you know how that came to be or what Wahabbism is?

I pray toward Mecca, not to Mecca. It matters not at all that it is in Saudi. Non-Muslims are mistaken to think that the Muslim world revolves around Saudi; it doesn't.

Islam doesn't need changing.

If you're Episcopalian, and Baptists do bad things, would you feel responsible for what the Baptists do?

I've been on Hajj more than once and to Saudi many times. That's how I know that they don't practice Islam there.

I teach Islam, have a Masters and Ph.D in the faith and its history. I have lived and worked in Muslim countries for decades and am Arab myself, from a Palestinian family. Are you serious that you know more about my faith and those who share it than I do?

I know that it is possible to get so close to any subject that one becomes blinkered to it's whole. It's no good asking a mafia boss whether the mafia is a good thing.

What you appear to be doing is cutting off (no pun intended) a huge section of the world that describes itself as Islamic and saying it's nothing to do with your brand.

In the context of this post, you would have to be sure that it is talking about your bit and not the rest.

Just look around the 'christians' in the US. They are as different as chalk and cheese but if one brand of christians believed in polygamy and 13 year old brides then it's up to the others to speak out and they do

Let me hear you speak about about the Wahabis and all the other groups - the Taliban, the people in Nigeria, the Punjabi terrorists - let's hear you disassociate yourself from them and their practices - or are they still your brothers and sisters and you cannot criticise what they do even though you say they are not 'real' Muslims?

After you exclude all the 'others', I wonder who are the real Muslims - just the Moroccans and the Libyans ?

Are you in a sect and how can you dissociate yourself from the rest ? Why not admit that these 'others' who do these things are in fact Muslim but of a different sect. Like Methodists and Baptists. Do you see the Shia and Sunni as both Islamic or only one of them and the others don't really exist ?

[Kathryn41 3,205]

Inappropriate image violating TOS has been removed and two posts introducing a totally different subject have been split off to make a separate topic.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

It's clear that not only do you know nothing of Islam, but what you think you know has made you cynical and negative about something you are totally ignorant of, but think you can lecture me about. You remind me of someone you criticized to me for being an argumentative know it all, but now, you are wearing her shoes.

You wish to remain ignorant, and I am quite content to fulfill your wish.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Which religion practices that ? Female circumcision - it ain't the mooneys

No, it's Muslims and Christians. It's a cultural rather than religous thing.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

No, it's Muslims and Christians. It's a cultural rather than religous thing.

Thank you

I'm curious why there is such a need on the part of some to resist the notion that there are many evil things attributed to Islam that are not of Islam, but are culturally specific to the people practicing it. It seems to be easier to assign bad qualities to Islam than to understand that there are Muslims who don't adhere to God's law, but follow their local traditions devoutly.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Thank you

I'm curious why there is such a need on the part of some to resist the notion that there are many evil things attributed to Islam that are not of Islam, but are culturally specific to the people practicing it. It seems to be easier to assign bad qualities to Islam than to understand that there are Muslims who don't adhere to God's law, but follow their local traditions devoutly.

Fundamentalism of any persuasion, is what critics are really aiming at.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Fundamentalism of any persuasion, is what critics are really aiming at.

The concept of fundamentalism as understood in Christianity is not the same in Islam. Observant Muslims are fundamentalists. We are not to be extremists; that would be the proper term.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

The concept of fundamentalism as understood in Christianity is not the same in Islam. Observant Muslims are fundamentalists. We are not to be extremists; that would be the proper term.

While not all fundamentalists are extremists, all extremists are fundamentalists.

[chri'stina 190]

It's clear that not only do you know nothing of Islam, but what you think you know has made you cynical and negative about something you are totally ignorant of, but think you can lecture me about. You remind me of someone you criticized to me for being an argumentative know it all, but now, you are wearing her shoes.

You wish to remain ignorant, and I am quite content to fulfill your wish.

He likes to do this to people of the religious persuasion. You are his target at the moment. He seems to be an equal opportunity religion basher. I am sure he will go on a Christianity rant again soon too.

[Captain Oates 910]

It's clear that not only do you know nothing of Islam, but what you think you know has made you cynical and negative about something you are totally ignorant of, but think you can lecture me about. You remind me of someone you criticized to me for being an argumentative know it all, but now, you are wearing her shoes.

You wish to remain ignorant, and I am quite content to fulfill your wish.

I asked you a series of questions, and rather than put me right, you reply that I wish to remain ignorant.

I think you are misrepresenting Islamic practices around the world by claiming that they are not really Muslims at all.

Instead of relying on your qualifications for credibility, you have to genuinely engage with the non Muslim world if you want to enhance the reputation of the Muslim world and use plain speech without all these academic twists and turns which simply amount to politician style spin.

I say 'genuinely' because your denial that Saudi Arabia is an Islamic country, part of the Islamic world, is deliberately trying to cloud the issue.

Yes I went to Saudi and in England I lived within 6 miles of 150,000 Muslims and mixed with them and worked with them - so although I don't have your string of letters after my name (well not the same string),I am part of the real world where claiming that Mecca is not situated in an Islamic country is just plain denial of a fact that the whole world acknowledges.

To say that nobody can lecture you, nobody can tell you anything, is pure academic arrogance. I went through that stage too when I was in my twenties, but I passed through it and believe me you have a lot to learn; both about debate and about the Islamic world. You would be amazed at the perspectives that people who are not Muslim and have not studied Islam, can bring to your outlook if you simply engage them with an open mind and without the deceptive devices.

[Captain Oates 910]

He likes to do this to people of the religious persuasion. You are his target at the moment. He seems to be an equal opportunity religion basher. I am sure he will go on a Christianity rant again soon too.

I suppose you are going to support her claim that Saudi is not an Islamic country ?

are you ? Come on and be honest

You would side with anyone to try and get back at anyone who doesn't like religious propaganda on these forums

Strange bedfellows indeed

I don't tragedy anyone. I ask questions. When people refuse to reply I draw the conclusion that they don't have a case. When they reach for the unlikeliest of allies, I know they are without an argument

I am not anti Muslim and I support the mosque

I am not anti- her either. I just want her to justify her claim that Saudi is not Islamic

I could be anti-you if you start looking for others to chum up with on a personality basis rather than coming up with an idea out of your own brain - you know, a point ?

She is clever enough to not need support from people who work like that

Edited August 4, 2010 by saywhat

[chri'stina 190]

I suppose you are going to support her claim that Saudi is not an Islamic country ?

are you ? Come on and be honest

You would side with anyone to try and get back at anyone who doesn't like religious propoganda on these forums

Strange bedfellows indeed

Do I believe they practice a form of Islam in Saudi Arabia? Yeah I do. Do I also believe cultures mix with religion and sometimes adjust it to their own cultural views? Yes I also believe that. I guess you haven't been around or haven't noticed that I have disagreed with Sofiyya on lots of things before.

[Peikko 1,575]

It's clear that not only do you know nothing of Islam, but what you think you know has made you cynical and negative about something you are totally ignorant of, but think you can lecture me about. You remind me of MC who someone you criticized to me for pointed out to me as being an argumentative know it all, but now, you are wearing her shoes.

You wish to remain ignorant, and I am quite content to fulfill your wish.

Fixed for you. If you want to backhanded insult me at least have the courage to name names. Mealy mouthed is cowardly.

[Captain Oates 910]

Do I believe they practice a form of Islam in Saudi Arabia? Yeah I do. Do I also believe cultures mix with religion and sometimes adjust it to their own cultural views? Yes I also believe that. I guess you haven't been around or haven't noticed that I have disagreed with Sofiyya on lots of things before.

That's fair enough

If Sofiyya could speak so plainly then we might get somewhere.

Having been Church of England, Primitive Methodist, Baptist and non-religious and had a stack of Catholic girlfriends, I can confirm that Christians come in all sorts of varieties. I can also confirm that non of them are in favour of holding down young girls and mutilating their genitalia with a dirty knife, cutting off hands on prime time TV, stoning women to death etc etc

If a Christian sect or church engaged in that stuff, I would expect other christian churches to condemn it.

Instead, it is left to a non- believer (the fastest growing opinion sector in the US) to say it exists and it is wrong and it should be stopped, while the so called christians don't engage and are more interested in religious solidarity with anyone, no matter how cruel, in order to keep their tithe base and tax status intact