The poor get poorer and deserve to

[Captain Oates 910]

I should welcome the inequality as I have a good wad and 3 pensions in payment and the poorer the 'others' get, the cheaper my bought in services get and the higher in the economic rankings I get.

I know though that violence and crime increases and social cohesion breaks down when it gets like this. Look at the Mexican border - look at the gun shops in this lil ole town - 5 gun shops and 3 gun clubs in a town the size of an English village - they live in fear now and it's getting worse when unemployment pay stops !

Girls imported for the sex trade because they are poor etc etc

What's the point in me being relatively rich if I have to live in a fearful cesspit of a society ?

Yeah I feel richer here - but I slept with my Glock and it's extended 17 round magazine next to my bed last night. Where's the 'pursuit of happiness' in having to do that after 234 years of the experiment ?

They collect cans of food for the hungry from my house ! What kind of 3rd world ####### is that ?

That happens in the most religious and the richest 'first world' country and people die of curable disease for lack of money !

I conclude the the US is only rich 'on average' because it is prepared to enslave huge sections of it's community and watch them prostitute themselves and enslave themselves (say you love Walmart or you are fired) in order to survive - or to go away and die somewhere out of sight that doesn't cost us anything.

This doesn't make me a socialist by the way - rich mill owners in Yorkshire in 1835 built schools and hospitals and houses for their workers. They did it because they wanted to live in a decent society for the happiness of everyone including them - the rich.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus_Salt

.

Edited July 9, 2010 by saywhat

[Krys & Nova 2]

Well isn't that perfect ?

Bully for those who get dealt a good hand and believe it's all down to them.

But what about these families that have two kids and one goes one way and the other goes the other and they were treated and trained and brought up identically ?

What happened there?

Explanation required....

I was in my council house and I sat in the loft space until 3am every night for 5 years to get my qualifications

I have never smoked, never had cannabis - not even one - not a drunk and didn't fool around. I showed my kids maths and English and how to save and plan and to look at the other kids who were failing and to do the opposite.

They never heard swearing in the house and they had a good upbringing up with education and what I reckon was a good example of how to try hard from nothing and to achieve.

I get so teed off when I am told that the way they are is my fault.

I am in NO WAY saying it is completely your fault they are like this. It takes a community to raise a child. What I am saying is that we as parent always have a tendency to bail our children out financially, when in reality we should be given them to guidance and know how to fix their own disaster. At some point our children have to grow up and face the world without the constant bail out by us, the parent. The sooner children realize that they can swim in the deep end, the sooner the waste becomes a non-issue.

I came from a family where money was not plentiful nor was it absent, my mother did spoil us (to a certain extent), but we knew our limits... I came remember a time where I had blown my entire cheque (actually a few chqs) and had bills due. I went to my parent asking for help and they refused. They could have helped me, but I would not have learnt how to pull myself out of a situation I put myself into in the first place. It did take me awhile to get myself together, but I did!

I think it's also a question of maturity. Two children can be raised the exact same way and you get 2 completely different outcomes.

In my humble opinion, everything starts in the home... Our children are truly a reflection of ourselves. Please know these are just my opinions... I am not trying to say you did not raise well adjusted children; all I am saying is that as parents we have a certain amount of responsibility for the outcome of our children. They learn almost everything at home first.

[Captain Oates 910]

I am in NO WAY saying it is completely your fault they are like this. It takes a community to raise a child. What I am saying is that we as parent always have a tendency to bail our children out financially, when in reality we should be given them to guidance and know how to fix their own disaster. At some point our children have to grow up and face the world without the constant bail out by us, the parent. The sooner children realize that they can swim in the deep end, the sooner the waste becomes a non-issue.

I came from a family where money was not plentiful nor was it absent, my mother did spoil us (to a certain extent), but we knew our limits... I came remember a time where I had blown my entire cheque (actually a few chqs) and had bills due. I went to my parent asking for help and they refused. They could have helped me, but I would not have learnt how to pull myself out of a situation I put myself into in the first place. It did take me awhile to get myself together, but I did!

I think it's also a question of maturity. Two children can be raised the exact same way and you get 2 completely different outcomes.

In my humble opinion, everything starts in the home... Our children are truly a reflection of ourselves. Please know these are just my opinions... I am not trying to say you did not raise well adjusted children; all I am saying is that as parents we have a certain amount of responsibility for the outcome of our children. They learn almost everything at home first.

This all sounds ok if you are dealing with a rational person like you or me but it's too simplistic in a Glen Beckian sort of way

If somone says to us "Study, work hard and you can have a nice car and a nice house and nice holidays and attract an attractive mate and live happily ever after" - we say "great I want to study now"

So yes, what you have described is the rational response of a rational child.

However: there are some people who feel the need to short cut this and get the rewards without the effort (the prodigal son was one of several with the same father)

They lose everything , go to jail, get beaten up by jealous husbands, can't emigrate to the US coz they have got caught with cocaine etc etc They NEVER learn.

It's my suspicion that it's not their bringing up but their rejection of their bringing up that has led them to be like this. It's why we can have rich areas like Ilkley or Harrogate which have as much drugs and crime as the council house estates. It's because due to some weird personality /human condition, some of us don't want to toe the line that IS being drawn by the parents and is being rejected - sometimes by one child but not the brothers/sisters.

Many times it is the parents fault but very many times it isnt - its the child's fault.

I guess that the essence of the debate is - do we believe it can ever be the child's fault ? Are they all a blank sheet of paper on which any parent can write or neglect to write anything, or do they have built in personalities much of which are pre ordained from birth and the parent can only work with what they are given ? Can a mother cat teach her daughter not to chase mice ?

Edited July 9, 2010 by saywhat

[Peikko 1,575]

This all sounds ok if you are dealing with a rational person like you or me but it's too simplistic in a Glen Beckian sort of way

If somone says to us "Study, work hard and you can have a nice car and a nice house and nice holidays and attract an attractive mate and live happily ever after" - we say "great I want to study now"

So yes, what you have described is the rational response of a rational child.

However: there are some people who feel the need to short cut this and get the rewards without the effort (the prodigal son was one of several with the same father)

They lose everything , go to jail, get beaten up by jealous husbands, can't emigrate to the US coz they have got caught with cocaine etc etc They NEVER learn.

It's my suspicion that it's not their bringing up but their rejection of their bringing up that has led them to be like this. It's why we can have rich areas like Ilkley or Harrogate which have as much drugs and crime as the council house estates. It's because due to some weird personality /human condition, some of us don't want to toe the line that IS being drawn by the parents and is being rejected - sometimes by one child but not the brothers/sisters.

Many times it is the parents fault but very many times it isnt - its the child's fault.

I guess that the essence of the debate is - do we believe it can ever be the child's fault ? Are they all a blank sheet of paper on which any parent can write or neglect to write anything, or do they have built in personalities much of which are pre ordained from birth and the parent can only work with what they are given ? Can a mother cat teach her daughter not to chase mice ?

I still think these people have psychological disorders of some description. It is not normal behaviour to want to be a waster - it takes a particular type of self destructive thinking. Perhaps it is an addictive disorder? You say he drinks and snorts cocaine - that is not normal in amounts that cause social discord, ie not being able to maintain oneself. These disorders are not the fault of the parents or the child, how can they be? I do not see the point in trying to assign blame in such circumstances, but unless a disorder is recognized nothing can or will change.

Edited July 9, 2010 by Madame Cleo

[rika60607 215]

What good is it to die with money in the bank if it means you did not accomplish what you wanted and did not do what makes you happy? I really want to know!

I don't think it's fair to say that they're stupid. I agree with the part about being short-sighted though. I've found that people who grow up in poverty often have this attitude like what good is it to die with money in the bank.

This doesn't really apply to your kids though - I'm presuming they didn't grow up in poverty.

[rika60607 215]

Unfortunately,

"study hard, work hard" - does not equal success and niceties. Something else needs to be in place - a good sense of when the rules could be bent, moralities ignored and how to not get in trouble.

Equally as some kids don't have good work ethics (seen plenty) and thus can't succeed, others are smart and hard working, but don't know how to abandon a sinking ship, a bad leadership (or lack of thereof) and how to demand rewards to be given to them.

It's hard to raise a kid who is intelligent AND street smart.

If somone says to us "Study, work hard and you can have a nice car and a nice house and nice holidays and attract an attractive mate and live happily ever after" - we say "great I want to study now"

[Captain Oates 910]

I still think these people have psychological disorders of some description. It is not normal behaviour to want to be a waster - it takes a particular type of self destructive thinking. Perhaps it is an addictive disorder? You say he drinks and snorts cocaine - that is not normal in amounts that cause social discord, ie not being able to maintain oneself. These disorders are not the fault of the parents or the child, how can they be? I do not see the point in trying to assign blame in such circumstances, but unless a disorder is recognized nothing can or will change.

Well he lives in Tenerife where its abnormal not to do cocaine. I never met anyone there who wasnt a ganja head and I met a lot. He has made his own business which sometimes (not since the recession) nets him £GBP 400 per day on 7 days a week for little effort and little tax. However its easy come easy go. His business assets - well say his bus (the second one I have bought him) need to be insured /repaired/ replaced but he blows his money as fast as it comes. His phone is cut off every month and he pay $100 to reconnect it. He reckons he is totally broke/fat and unemployed 90% of the time right now yet he goes to a car wash. Here am I washing my car by hand. Whats happening ? I bet Warren Buffet washes his car by hand too. The richer you are the more likely you are to wash your car by hand. Thinking like got got you rich in the first place.

Have you noticed how the people who are always in debt with credit cards etc despite their good jobs , never try to avoid costs like parking tickets/expensive cell phones/nice shoes/excess fight baggage etc etc and get caught for big costs on stuff that should have been insured if they had bothered ? It's that kind of brains out thinking that does my head in.

I know plenty of people around 50 who have always had lots of debt but don't care about squandering money - they will never change and will get MUCH poorer if some relative doesn't die on time.

How can people smoke (Obama) when they know it's going to kill/cripple them and keep them poor (not Obama). Perfect example MR O. He is supposed to be mega intelligent but he smokes. There is a personality flaw there. He knows it's against his own interests but he just can't comply with what logic dictates he should do.

Was it his bringing up/education ? No it's from within him. His fault. Not his bringing up.

All the stuff I have posted on here has been drilled into my kids from the time the afterbirth was cleaned out of their ears, but it has done no good.

When my daughter was 15, her first boyfriend had one eye and had been released from prison that week ? eh ? whats happening ? Then she married a big time multi- multi millionaire's son but divorced him for a guy who had been in the remedial class at a special school and had just come out of prison too... what ?

Thing is that when I talk to people about my locos, they come back with equally hair raising stories about people they know- so it ain't just mine.

Of course in the US it's the done thing to cover all this up and make out you and yours are perfect - I know that's garbage but it's the culture - showtime and all that.

John Edwards with his hair and his love child and Bill with his oval thingy and the cookery woman in jail etc etc. Just as bad but they keep it all hid.

A lot of the stuff that goes on at the top of society - Chappaquiddick, Nixon, is just as bad as my kids when I think about it - but I am sure the Kennedy parents and the Nixon parents were really excellent parents. Clinton did dope, we know about Bill and his stains, Nixon procured burglary and as for the Kennedys what with death by drunk driving and bonking Marilyn. It should have been me !

praps my kids aren't that bad after all

Edited July 9, 2010 by saywhat

[Sc0tt28 26]

The poor are always with us but it sure isn't the fault of us who are not poor. We try everything to get em on their feet but they are just stupid and can't see past 24 hours into the future.

I know that my two wasters are more typical than atypical.

Discuss .....

Wasters are everywhere. they should be shot.

The people that enable the wasters by making life easy for them by giving them hand-out after hand-out are the ones that should be shot.

[KaiserD 12]

Like someone else said it takes a village, there are a lot of influences besides parents and you can't control everything that comes in and out of childrens lives.

A lot of people my age are going nowhere fast. I had this conversation with my mother just a couple of days ago and she was not impressed lol

I was saying that a lot of people from my generation don't look after themselves, lack self discipline, bad spending habits e.t.c because we were not taught these things. "What are you talking about!" she seethed "we've done EVERYTHING for you" ... ehh, yes that's the problem.

"It's not like I didn't TRY to teach you how to cook, you just weren't interested".

Well no of course not, what 14 year old wants to sit around cooking when they could be playing on the Mega Drive (Genesis to the rest of you). This was comming from the person that said "You're not getting your a$$ out of that chair until your homework is done". I'm guessing at some point that people criticized mothers for making kids do chores and making mothers feel like they should be doing them.

Parents might consider "what is my main task as a parent?" to the people of my parents and my husband's parents the answer seems to be "to look after and provide for my children". I believe my job as a parent is to teach my child to look after himself, I can't think of a better gift I can give him than to teach him independence. So I don't care if he doesn't want to learn how to wash and iron his clothes or if people call me a bad mother because we will make him help to teach him things, when you're a parent you can't get anything right to other people anyway. There's always someone going "omg someone should report you" over backpack reigns or some stupid thing.

This of course is no judgement on you or your family, just previous observations from families of my age group.

[Peikko 1,575]

Well he lives in Tenerife where its abnormal not to do cocaine. I never met anyone there who wasnt a ganja head and I met a lot. He has made his own business which sometimes (not since the recession) nets him £GBP 400 per day on 7 days a week for little effort and little tax. However its easy come easy go. His business assets - well say his bus (the second one I have bought him) need to be insured /repaired/ replaced but he blows his money as fast as it comes. His phone is cut off every month and he pay $100 to reconnect it. He reckons he is totally broke/fat and unemployed 90% of the time right now yet he goes to a car wash. Here am I washing my car by hand. Whats happening ? I bet Warren Buffet washes his car by hand too. The richer you are the more likely you are to wash your car by hand. Thinking like got got you rich in the first place.

Have you noticed how the people who are always in debt with credit cards etc despite their good jobs , never try to avoid costs like parking tickets/expensive cell phones/nice shoes/excess fight baggage etc etc and get caught for big costs on stuff that should have been insured if they had bothered ? It's that kind of brains out thinking that does my head in.

I know plenty of people around 50 who have always had lots of debt but don't care about squandering money - they will never change and will get MUCH poorer if some relative doesn't die on time.

How can people smoke (Obama) when they know it's going to kill/cripple them and keep them poor (not Obama). Perfect example MR O. He is supposed to be mega intelligent but he smokes. There is a personality flaw there. He knows it's against his own interests but he just can't comply with what logic dictates he should do.

Was it his bringing up/education ? No it's from within him. His fault. Not his bringing up.

All the stuff I have posted on here has been drilled into my kids from the time the afterbirth was cleaned out of their ears, but it has done no good.

When my daughter was 15, her first boyfriend had one eye and had been released from prison that week ? eh ? whats happening ? Then she married a big time multi- multi millionaire's son but divorced him for a guy who had been in the remedial class at a special school and had just come out of prison too... what ?

Thing is that when I talk to people about my locos, they come back with equally hair raising stories about people they know- so it ain't just mine.

Of course in the US it's the done thing to cover all this up and make out you and yours are perfect - I know that's garbage but it's the culture - showtime and all that.

John Edwards with his hair and his love child and Bill with his oval thingy and the cookery woman in jail etc etc. Just as bad but they keep it all hid.

A lot of the stuff that goes on at the top of society - Chappaquiddick, Nixon, is just as bad as my kids when I think about it - but I am sure the Kennedy parents and the Nixon parents were really excellent parents. Clinton did dope, we know about Bill and his stains, Nixon procured burglary and as for the Kennedys what with death by drunk driving and bonking Marilyn. It should have been me !

praps my kids aren't that bad after all

I very much doubt everyone in Tenenrife snorts coke or perhaps he injects it? It induces paranoia with extensive use but to say it is abnormal to not do cocaine is just an excuse for an abnormal behaviour - any behaviour that is self destructive is abnormal even if it is not unusual.

Regardless, I am not sure that trying to finds someone to blame is a useful exercise - the situation is what it is, and there either are solutions, because your son and daughter are not satisfied with the way they are living their lives currently and are willing to make efforts to change, or there are not and they will not. I hope for your sake that something changes for them because as things stands, you look like you will survie your son - your daughter does not seem to be in such immediate danger of an early death but her life does not seem to be very fulfiilling, at least looking in from the outside.

No one can really say how much their upbringing affected the people they are today, but it is probably a mixture of personality, upbringing, peer pressure and a sequence of personal decisions that they made once they reached the age when they became responsible for their own decisions. It is not what most parents would wish for when they consider their chidren's futures for sure but then presumably they could also be a lot worse, they could be cheating, stealing, producing children that they are not willing to care for,yada yada yada.

I am not sure I agree that US parents are in complete denial about their children's shortcomings by the way, not sure why you think that but I have not experienced that.

[Captain Oates 910]

Like someone else said it takes a village, there are a lot of influences besides parents and you can't control everything that comes in and out of childrens lives.

A lot of people my age are going nowhere fast. I had this conversation with my mother just a couple of days ago and she was not impressed lol

I was saying that a lot of people from my generation don't look after themselves, lack self discipline, bad spending habits e.t.c because we were not taught these things. "What are you talking about!" she seethed "we've done EVERYTHING for you" ... ehh, yes that's the problem.

"It's not like I didn't TRY to teach you how to cook, you just weren't interested".

Well no of course not, what 14 year old wants to sit around cooking when they could be playing on the Mega Drive (Genesis to the rest of you). This was comming from the person that said "You're not getting your a$$ out of that chair until your homework is done". I'm guessing at some point that people criticized mothers for making kids do chores and making mothers feel like they should be doing them.

Parents might consider "what is my main task as a parent?" to the people of my parents and my husband's parents the answer seems to be "to look after and provide for my children". I believe my job as a parent is to teach my child to look after himself, I can't think of a better gift I can give him than to teach him independence. So I don't care if he doesn't want to learn how to wash and iron his clothes or if people call me a bad mother because we will make him help to teach him things, when you're a parent you can't get anything right to other people anyway. There's always someone going "omg someone should report you" over backpack reigns or some stupid thing.

This of course is no judgement on you or your family, just previous observations from families of my age group.

In a way, my kids can look after themselves too well.

That is - as far as getting money and housing and feeding themselves is concerned.

My son was an exotic dancer and then a house painter (no qualifications) and then a roofer -as in stamp on the old ladies tiles and charge her 10 times what it should have been.

Oh they can look after themselves very well but it's all semi legal at best and the easy way.

I didnt facilitate this as some people seem to think. I did give him a roofing job on my house and I found out years later he had stolen the tiles from a building site and then charged me top dollar.

He told me he was buying a 1000 cc motor bike in tenerife and I said "You havent got a bike licence". He said " I have, I bought one this morning for 50 euros".

Yes I stepped in and financed his business, gave him a chance and now I won't do any more for him in that way. But I didnt start him off on this spiv life by making things easy for him.

I have always hated drugs including cannabis and I look down on the scum who use it. The people they have to associate with to buy it tells the story. I have always thought and spoken like that but it didnt stop him.

So I return to my theme that it isn't their upbringing - it's their resistance to their decent upbringing that is the cause of their pathetic life styles and attitudes..

Now, what is the cause of the resistance is my interest.

Punishment doesn't always work or the US would not have the highest prison population in the world - so the 'hang em, flog em, deprive em to make em do it right' people are just plain wrong and being too simplistic

Edited July 10, 2010 by saywhat

[KaiserD 12]

Now, what is the cause of the resistance is my interest.

Well certainly with the group I was raised with, outside of parenting there was a HUGE entitlement mentality (via peers, teachers) - we were all told if we did ok at school go to college and uni (and study whatever you want)a job will just fall in our laps. Of course this was BS, we can't all be fashion designers and whatever environmental science is used for. If someone suggested a trade job, plumbing or whatever, we would have just laughed.

But I'm not the best example I guess, it's not that I hated "the system" or I never intended to work hard or dishonestly, I was just ignorant of how the world worked.

I know some people are going to roll their eyes at this but... has he ever been tested for ADHD?

[Captain Oates 910]

Well certainly with the group I was raised with, outside of parenting there was a HUGE entitlement mentality (via peers, teachers) - we were all told if we did ok at school go to college and uni (and study whatever you want)a job will just fall in our laps. Of course this was BS, we can't all be fashion designers and whatever environmental science is used for. If someone suggested a trade job, plumbing or whatever, we would have just laughed.

But I'm not the best example I guess, it's not that I hated "the system" or I never intended to work hard or dishonestly, I was just ignorant of how the world worked.

I know some people are going to roll their eyes at this but... has he ever been tested for ADHD?

I know you won't believe this, but a huge proportion of people are just like him.

It's a societal problem rather than him as sicko.

I loved it when a snobby woman in the UK was talking down to me about how it was my fault and her daughter was so charming and well brought up and an example to all the others - then her 15 year old daughter got pregnant. Schadenfreud or what - I am still chuckling

Hey it even happened to Sarah's daughter ....

Strict Christian bringing up ?

If it was just my son I wouldnt have raised the thread - I believe that a huge number of people and not just young ones are irresponsible and wasters and drug users and living beyond their means and not being careful with their money..

If you look at statistics, it is huge - the majority of Americans have a net worth of ZERO and/or pay no tax as a consequence

- and it's not that they were not earning and it applies from before the recession. A huge number of us on VJ will use cannabis and run credit cards (not me) etc etc. These people are all around us.

[KaiserD 12]

I can see a good portion of people running up debt on credit cards out of immature behaviour (or just lblowing money in that is made on stupid things), but what he did about your roof was just down right mean. I would never dare do that but even if I did I would have forfeit the right to ask my family of any favours, ever. You're right, I can't accept that that is "the norm".

About having children early, I don't know, that seems like something that's always been around. Always more prevalent in poorer areas perhaps, though especially in the UK there is great access to birth control now, it doesn't need to happen like it does. That reminds me of an article I had read lately about the myth of teen offspring and their parents opinions of how innocent they were. I want to say it was the NYTimes that had access to a study and almost all the parents disapproved of their teen's boyfriend/girlfriend saying that they were enticing them into immoral behaviour

I think I would have been a little smug too but you know when people feel the need to put other down it's only because inside she is questioning her ability, and needs reassuring by seeing someone else fail. Seems like a lot of that going around right now, sadly.

Sarah Palin. I probably shouldn't even go there lol I dislike her intensely but I also feel sorry for her.

If you look at statistics, it is huge - the majority of Americans have a net worth of ZERO and/or pay no tax as a consequence

But...but! I'm sure there are lots of SAHM like me out there still! I have absolutely no desire to pop out any more so I can stay at home, I have to get out of here Either I will need to take business full time somehow or there had better be some regular jobs out there by the time Miles goes to school!

Ooooh that's weird. My keyboard has gone to UK English...I caught my toddler messing with the keyboard earlier he must have pressed something. Every time I select UK keyboard it never works lol. ££££ Yay!

Edited July 10, 2010 by KaiserD

[DEDixon 39]

LOL on the title of the thread!!