Riots in Oakland

[_Simpson_ 250]

Yet, according to received wisdom it should be far, far worse in the UK because UK citizens and the police are unarmed and only the criminals have guns, and yet the level of gun crime in the UK is very, very low, notwithstanding the once in a blue moon instances.

Thats a whole other debate. Your focus is with the cops and not the violent 'suspects'

I do 'get it' Simpson, I 'get it' very well. People in the US accept levels of violence that are completely unknown in other developed countries and that is because there are so many people with your attitude that police acting with unnecessary levels of force is the inevitable result of how dangerous and bristling with weapons the US criminal is compared with all their UK/European/Antipodean counterparts.

Most of the encounters cops have with 'suspects' dont result in bodily harm like shooting or tasing. Knowing that simple fact, when a shooting does occur rational people dont start running around screaming how corrupt the cops are.

Poppycock - frequently the suspect who is shot turns out to be unarmed, frequently cops tazer feeble/weak individuals simply because they resist arrest, frequently suspects turn out not to be the right person at all and yet that is just the acceptable price society has to pay because US cops need to take extreme actions because US suspects are assumed to be armed and dangerous and that is the only way to deal with the armed and dangerous.

Your keep trying to use the execption to the rule to make your agrument. 9 out of 10 times the 'suspect' had a gun. Its seems you've fallen victim to headline news.

Yes Simpson, I get very well what is wrong with the US police and their disconnect with the communities they police and I know that this is not the only way to police a community, nor is it the best or most successful way to police a community, experience in other communities gives me the ability to make the comparisons and reach this conclusion

The disconnect usually tends to be in crime ridden communities. Cops are screwed from the get go in these communities and your quick to blame cops policing abilities instead of the constant drug dealing that leads to these violent conflicts.

and no, just because I am aware of the deficiencies in the US police system does not mean for one instance that I disrespect America, nor does it mean that I constantly criticize everything and everyone American,nor does it mean that I think every US cop is a dumb git and a disgrace to his uniform but I do not expect you to understand that pointing out flaws and differences between good systems and bad ones equates to disrespect,

The comment I made earlier was not just based on this thread. I have been here for around two years now and during that 2 years you given very little praise and piss and moan about everything USA.

because you have consistently argued that immigrants should simply be in awe of everything American simply because it is American and that makes it better and that any immigrant planning on becoming a citizen must simply shut up and admire America and be grateful for the opportunity.

This is simply not true. I take issue with the people who complain 24/7, I have no problem with criticism but when thats all you do it gets tiring. I just would like to see people a little more praising and little less complaining.

Edited July 10, 2010 by _Simpson_

[Brother Hesekiel 2,235]

I lived in 6 European countries (Denmark, England, Germany, Sweden, France, Italy) and briefly India and have visited 32. At no time have I been so discouraged with the police as I have in the United States.

I grew up seeing the police as the "good guys," people to look up to as role models. "Look, Son . . . the policeman is helping the old Lady crossing the street." I remember cops having to follow the law like every other citizen. They could not turn on their lights and siren to cross an intersection; they needed and still need radio permission to do that which is given only when necessary. Cops turning on red? Not using a turn signal? Parking like they own the street? Only in America.

Here cops can do whatever they please, and they do it frequently. Aside from the few neighborhood cops riding on bicycles (on the sidewalk, another case of breaking the law!), people are afraid of cops. In Europe I have on several occasions filed a report against a cop who pulled some sh*t; here such a complaint will end up in the trash as cops take care of their own, no matter what.

Thus, after almost 2 decades in the US I've found out that COPS is really the abbreviation of:

Criminal

Organization in

Public

Service

Another thing that I have never experienced before: if there's some trouble somewhere, a whole army of coward cops arrives. In Europe, 1 car with 2 cops takes the call; they don't need 8 cops for one troublemaker, not even if it's a black male. They don't need guns or tasers either.

Only in America. Only here I have come to hate cops, a sentiment I never had before.

[Peikko 1,575]

Thats a whole other debate. Your focus is with the cops and not the violent 'suspects'

Most of the encounters cops have with 'suspects' dont result in bodily harm like shooting or tasing. Knowing that simple fact, when a shooting does occur rational people dont start running around screaming how corrupt the cops are.

Your keep trying to use the execption to the rule to make your agrument. 9 out of 10 times the 'suspect' had a gun. Its seems you've fallen victim to headline news.

The disconnect usually tends to be in crime ridden communities. Cops are screwed from the get go in these communities and your quick to blame cops policing abilities instead of the constant drug dealing that leads to these violent conflicts.

The comment I made earlier was not just based on this thread. I have been here for around two years now and during that 2 years you given very little praise and piss and moan about everything USA.

This is simply not true. I take issue with the people who complain 24/7, I have no problem with criticism but when thats all you do it gets tiring. I just would like to see people a little more praising and little less complaining.

No, it's not a whole other debate, it's part and parcel of the reason why America is more violent than any other industrialized nation, violent as in endless killings not merely yobbish fights on a Saturday night when all the drunks come out the pubs. You can deny the connection all you like, but, it's pretty plain to see if you have even a smidgen of experience with living in other nations.

Again you are failing to understand that I am criticizing policy and attitudes, not individuals - there is no suggestion from me that the police are universally evil, that they never do anything right or that there are no good policemen who can make arrests without violence in the US. There are problems, real ones that people without their heads stuffed inside American idols and spouting blind patriotism appreciate and I would imagine would like to change if they can.

I think it's time you quit with all the ####### about how I hate America but of course you will not because you really believe it based on your childlike belief that criticizing aspects of America that are failing is unpatriotic, never mind that I am not a citizen. Even if I was a citizen, I would not be so stupid as to believe that when things are crappy in America they must still be better than the best of things in other countries. America is like everywhere else, it is a mix of good, bad and indifferent. It's not the best place to live in the world, but nor is it the worst - it is unique, but then so are all the other places that one could live happily, safely and productively and yes Simpson, there are plenty of places in the world that are great places to live, the US is just one of many and in terms of how it is policed it's not at the top of the list by any stretch of the imagination.

[slim 1,514]

I lived in 6 European countries (Denmark, England, Germany, Sweden, France, Italy) and briefly India and have visited 32. At no time have I been so discouraged with the police as I have in the United States.

Ever been to Russia?

No, it's not a whole other debate, it's part and parcel of the reason why America is more violent than any other industrialized nation, violent as in endless killings not merely yobbish fights on a Saturday night when all the drunks come out the pubs.

America is nowhere near as violent as other places in the world yet you "champions of the gun ban" keep coming on here telling us how horrible it is. Do some research. Places like UK and AUS are just as violent (if not more) than the US.

So we have a lot more gun-related homicides in urban areas. How does that take away from the overall safety of our country? IT DOESN'T!

[Peikko 1,575]

Ever been to Russia?

America is nowhere near as violent as other places in the world yet you "champions of the gun ban" keep coming on here telling us how horrible it is. Do some research. Places like UK and AUS are just as violent (if not more) than the US.

So we have a lot more gun-related homicides in urban areas. How does that take away from the overall safety of our country? IT DOESN'T!

You are an idiot if you believe that, but then clearly you do believe it. The UK does not have very much violence that resuilts in death, it's that simple. The majority of violence in the UK is a result of drunken yobs fighting on their way out of pubs. It's not fun, it's not wonderful, it's not particularly civilized but it's also not the type of violence that is found routinely in the US. You have no clue what you are talking about when you try to compare the US to Europe in terms of general safety. As for the bolded, well, what can one say? No, the US is perfectly safe, 14 year old girls are never killed because they are having fun on 4th July when some moron decides prove what a man he is.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The UK has violent areas - council estates that are infamous for criminal activity. I don't think anyone would dispute that.

But we don't have entire cities that are like that. The US does.

[Peikko 1,575]

The UK has violent areas - council estates that are infamous for criminal activity. I don't think anyone would dispute that.

But we don't have entire cities that are like that. The US does.

That is true, and yet despite the high levels of criminal activity in these specific areas, there is not the amount of violence that there is in the US in comparable areas - that's my point.

[slim 1,514]

You are an idiot if you believe that, but then clearly you do believe it. The UK does not have very much violence that resuilts in death, it's that simple. The majority of violence in the UK is a result of drunken yobs fighting on their way out of pubs. It's not fun, it's not wonderful, it's not particularly civilized but it's also not the type of violence that is found routinely in the US. You have no clue what you are talking about when you try to compare the US to Europe in terms of general safety. As for the bolded, well, what can one say? No, the US is perfectly safe, 14 year old girls are never killed because they are having fun on 4th July when some moron decides prove what a man he is.

Whether or not the violence results in death doesn't mean its any safer or you're any less likely to be victimized. You're saying the UK is far safer than the US and that's simply not true.

In terms of general safety, there really is no distinct difference between the US and Europe when it comes to being the victim of a crime.

The UK has violent areas - council estates that are infamous for criminal activity. I don't think anyone would dispute that.

But we don't have entire cities that are like that. The US does.

So you guys don't have entire cities that are like that because you've banned guns and therefore taken away their ability to terrorise the whole city and they're relegated to only running amok in the council estates? Is that what you're saying?

By your argument if they had guns, your cities would be just as bad as ours. Are you really suggesting that?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

In the other thread it was being floated that "positive" stories relating to firearms are not posted because of reasons of bias and editorial agenda.

Well about a 2 years ago my ex had to attend jury duty - the case was triple murder and rape, easily one of the most heinous crimes I'd ever heard of. A guy in a poor neighbourhood in NJ decided to rob a woman down the street - he demanded money and when she didn't have any to give him (because everyone there is dirt poor) the guy forced his way into the house, raped her, stabbed her to death, stabbed the woman's sister and then went into the bedroom and strangled two children aged 4yo and 18 months.

Guess what - that story never made it into the nationals either. Best I could find were a couple of articles in local papers.

In the UK murders a lot less heinous than that make the national news.

Edited July 10, 2010 by Its a MADHOUSE

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Whether or not the violence results in death doesn't mean its any safer or you're any less likely to be victimized. You're saying the UK is far safer than the US and that's simply not true.

In terms of general safety, there really is no distinct difference between the US and Europe when it comes to being the victim of a crime

I feel like we're going in circles - you're saying that the US is safer than the UK and in my experience that simply isn't true.

So you guys don't have entire cities that are like that because you've banned guns and therefore taken away their ability to terrorise the whole city and they're relegated to only running amok in the council estates? Is that what you're saying?

By your argument if they had guns, your cities would be just as bad as ours. Are you really suggesting that?

I do not believe that guns alone are the sole reason for that, no. I do think that they are a contributing factor.

[slim 1,514]

In the other thread it was being floated that "positive" stories relating to firearms are not posted because of reasons of bias and editorial agenda.

Well about a 2 years ago my ex had to attend jury duty - the case was triple murder and rape, easily one of the most heinous crimes I'd ever heard of. A guy in a poor neighbourhood in NJ decided to rob a woman down the street - he demanded money and when she didn't have any to give him (because everyone there is dirt poor) the guy forced his way into the house, raped her, stabbed her to death, stabbed the woman's sister and then went into the bedroom and strangled two children aged 4yo and 18 months.

Guess what - that story never made it into the nationals either. Best I could find were a couple of articles in local papers.

You mean, he didn't use a gun? There's no way that happened here in America because all of our problems are caused by guns. Stuff like this wouldn't ever happen in the UK.

I'm not surprised it wasn't on the national news. He didn't use a gun. Nobody cares if someone stabs people to death because we're not trying to ban knives. If we were, that would've been front page news for sure.

I feel like we're going in circles - you're saying that the US is safer than the UK and in my experience that simply isn't true.

Not safer, just not "more dangerous."

I do not believe that guns alone are the sole reason for that, no. I do think that they are a contributing factor.

It would be nice if you would argue them as a contributing factor instead of the sole cause.

[Peikko 1,575]

You mean, he didn't use a gun? There's no way that happened here in America because all of our problems are caused by guns. Stuff like this wouldn't ever happen in the UK.

I'm not surprised it wasn't on the national news. He didn't use a gun. Nobody cares if someone stabs people to death because we're not trying to ban knives. If we were, that would've been front page news for sure.

Not safer, just not "more dangerous."

It would be nice if you would argue them as a contributing factor instead of the sole cause.

No one is arguing that it is the sole cause, there are all kinds of differences, how communities are policed being another one but hey, why let a simple thing like being wrong ruin a perfectly good tirade?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

You mean, he didn't use a gun? There's no way that happened here in America because all of our problems are caused by guns. Stuff like this wouldn't ever happen in the UK.

I'm not surprised it wasn't on the national news. He didn't use a gun. Nobody cares if someone stabs people to death because we're not trying to ban knives. If we were, that would've been front page news for sure.

When things are commonplace, they lose their news "shock" value.

[elmcitymaven 9,711]

So you guys don't have entire cities that are like that because you've banned guns and therefore taken away their ability to terrorise the whole city and they're relegated to only running amok in the council estates? Is that what you're saying?

Uh, yeah. I can honestly say that in the 12 years I lived in Britain there was only one time I felt genuinely in danger, and it was from the fists of a lagered up man on the Greenwich railway station platform because I wouldn't give him a snog. In the nearly three years since I've been back, I cannot enumerate how many times I've felt the bristle of fear from a situation. I do not live in LA proper -- I live in cosy little Burbank where the police blotter reads like Mayberry RFD's -- but still this place freaks me out at night occasionally. I saw a guy get tasered in broad daylight in Santa Barbara last year -- it seemed so unreal I looked around to see if a film was being shot. I saw someone get stabbed in Culver City right in front of me when I was at a bar with a good reputation.

I lived in London and Bristol, cities with big problems, but I walked around pretty sure nothing was going to happen to me just because I happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Here, I can't say that, not at all. And to be honest, this is one of the reasons I am seriously contemplating moving back to Britain permanently.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Not safer, just not "more dangerous."

Tell you what - you spend a night in Manchester or Birmingham and then do the same in Newark or Compton and say that again and I *might* believe you.

It would be nice if you would argue them as a contributing factor instead of the sole cause.

It would be nice if you wouldn't make so many silly assumptions.