Guys, don't forget May 9

[visaveteran 1]

There was a time when our elected leaders actually argued over things in the interest of representing their constituents. I know that time is long passed, but it would be cool to see them yelling back and forth during "debates." To see them actually passionate about their values and representing their people as opposed to shadily and silenty signing their lives away in accordance with their party and/or contributor's wishes.

Egg flinging would be cool too. I just watched Idiocracy again last night. I'm convinced that's how we're going to end up if we don't change things. Then again, having President Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho would be kind of cool. Congress gets out of line, he pulls out a SAW and tears the place up. "We gonna fix this sh!t."

Eggs? Eggs are for wimps. Our leaders used to settle things with dueling pistols. Maybe we should drop the ban on dueling? That would give the advantage to those who support gun freedom, and they might actually know how to use them.

The Russians are the roughest at the moment. In recent times in Russia, male Duma members have openly beat on females in front of cameras. That may fit the Russian way of doing things but would be against our decorum. But then, there was that daydream I had about the House of Representatives...

[Cixelsyd 1]

There was a time when our elected leaders actually argued over things in the interest of representing their constituents. I know that time is long passed, but it would be cool to see them yelling back and forth during "debates." To see them actually passionate about their values and representing their people as opposed to shadily and silenty signing their lives away in accordance with their party and/or contributor's wishes.

Egg flinging would be cool too. I just watched Idiocracy again last night. I'm convinced that's how we're going to end up if we don't change things. Then again, having President Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho would be kind of cool. Congress gets out of line, he pulls out a SAW and tears the place up. "We gonna fix this sh!t."

I've pretty much accepted Idiocracy as the near future. It's just a matter of how far off, because "it has electrolytes".

[mox 298]

For the first time, NATO troops participated in the May 9 celebrations:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/05/09/russia.parade/

A little footage from the parade in Moscow:

[visaveteran 1]

It seems Russia has decided to move beyond its self-centered "The Great Patriotic War" posture and look at the wider realities of WWII. Someone suggested Russia makes a distinction between the GPW and WWII. If that was ever true, it seems to have changed. Now Russia acknowledges the West's contributions in defeating Hitler. Medvedev has made some major nods to the west recently. A negative speech about Stalin and his failures during WWII (on the heels of Putin's praise of Stalin) and now allowing NATO troops to march through Red Square.

Is Russia shifting its stance towards the West?

[Advanced Aardvark 82]

Yes, also Mother's Day!

Has anyone else heard the rumors? My mother in law told me the other day they are very concerned about a "civil war" in Ukraine. Seems the new government has invited the Russian and Belarussian military to join in the May 9 Parade in Kiev! After all they WERE one country at the time. On the surface it would appear no more offensive than having a British or Canadian military unit in one of our Memorial Day Parades...but in Ukraine it is not that simple. Her mom is afraid if the people from western Ukraine "go crazy" and shoot at the Russians the Russians will shoot back and the parade will turn into a battle. Seems a bit over the top, and my MIL, bless her soul, can be a bit over the top.

Alla is due to leave for a visit next Saturday and her mom is warning her to be careful.

Anyone else heard of this?

Many Ukrainians will never forgive Russia for the Holdomor, the famine Stalin caused in 1932 - 1933. Millions of Ukrainians starved in one year, because Stalin appropriated a significant portion of their grain production. Google "ukraine starvation stalin" for an ample list of references. It is not hard to imagine why very strong feelings about this still exist: there are people living who remember these events.

[visaveteran 1]

Many Ukrainians will never forgive Russia for the Holdomor, the famine Stalin caused in 1932 - 1933. Millions of Ukrainians starved in one year, because Stalin appropriated a significant portion of their grain production. Google "ukraine starvation stalin" for an ample list of references. It is not hard to imagine why very strong feelings about this still exist: there are people living who remember these events.

Yes, and the new Ukraine leader just made a speech downplaying the Holdomor...saying Ukrainians were not deliberately targeted by Stalin. That other areas of the USSR also starved, as if that makes it OK.

[Advanced Aardvark 82]

Yes, and the new Ukraine leader just made a speech downplaying the Holdomor...saying Ukrainians were not deliberately targeted by Stalin. That other areas of the USSR also starved, as if that makes it OK.

The truly tragic part of this is, the Ukrainians required about 10 million metric tons of grain to survive; they produced 12.5 million metric tons that year. Stalin appropriated something like 7 million metric tons, thereby leaving the Ukrainians with about half of what they required. There was no famine in Ukraine, until Stalin created one. Estimates vary, but the median number of starvation deaths attributed to the Holdomor is 7 million. To put that in context, Hitler was responsible for killing 6 million jews in his entire Third Reich: Stallin starved 7 million Ukrainians in one year. There will continue to be very strong feeling about this until everyone touched by it has passed.

[Cixelsyd 1]

For the first time, NATO troops participated in the May 9 celebrations:

Nice video. Would be cool to have been there.

I heard it was a really big celebration all around this year.

Cool about the NATO troops as well.

[mox 298]

Some cool shots of the aerial portion of the celebrations:

http://englishrussia.com/index.php/2010/05/10/aircrafts-flying-in-v-day-over-moscow/

We'd have liked to have been there too. This was the 65th anniversary, so I guess they really took it over the top this year. And I'm an aviation nut, so I'm sure my neck would have been fused in the upward position by the end of the day.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Many Ukrainians will never forgive Russia for the Holdomor, the famine Stalin caused in 1932 - 1933. Millions of Ukrainians starved in one year, because Stalin appropriated a significant portion of their grain production. Google "ukraine starvation stalin" for an ample list of references. It is not hard to imagine why very strong feelings about this still exist: there are people living who remember these events.

Some people ar elike that. It would be like some southerners never forgiving the north for invading. some haven't, but they are generally considered anachcronistic ignoramuses, or just plain morons.

The main lesson is not to give government so much power, it is inevitable what will happen.

The governemnt of Russia is not what it was in the 1930's. I guess we could all "not forgive" Germany, Japan, Austria/Hungary, or whoever we want to hate forever. It would be just as silly.

And NO I am not defending Stalin or the Soviet Union. I am saying he is gone, the Soviet Union is gone. People should move on as most of the world has and always remember what happens what when you ask the government to fix your problems.

Edited May 11, 2010 by Gary and Alla

[visaveteran 1]

Some people ar elike that. It would be like some southerners never forgiving the north for invading. some haven't, but they are generally considered anachcronistic ignoramuses, or just plain morons.

The main lesson is not to give government so much power, it is inevitable what will happen.

The governemnt of Russia is not what it was in the 1930's. I guess we could all "not forgive" Germany, Japan, Austria/Hungary, or whoever we want to hate forever. It would be just as silly.

And NO I am not defending Stalin or the Soviet Union. I am saying he is gone, the Soviet Union is gone. People should move on as most of the world has and always remember what happens what when you ask the government to fix your problems.

I think it's a matter of magnitude and who is affected...soldiers or innocent civilians? And how horrible was a certain event? Killing a few hundred thousand soldiers during acts of war is one thing. Killing many millions of innocent people by starvation is not something that you shake off and forget in a few generations. Look at the Armenians. They refuse to let Turkey off the hook for their genocide dating back to WWI...even while it might, from a purely practical view, harm them by keeping borders closed and commerce with Turkey off limits. But it was, to them, THAT horrible and they still want some accountability. Some acknowledgment. If folks from my family died during the great starvation, I might hold a grudge too.

[Advanced Aardvark 82]

Some people ar elike that. It would be like some southerners never forgiving the north for invading. some haven't, but they are generally considered anachcronistic ignoramuses, or just plain morons.

The main lesson is not to give government so much power, it is inevitable what will happen.

The governemnt of Russia is not what it was in the 1930's. I guess we could all "not forgive" Germany, Japan, Austria/Hungary, or whoever we want to hate forever. It would be just as silly.

And NO I am not defending Stalin or the Soviet Union. I am saying he is gone, the Soviet Union is gone. People should move on as most of the world has and always remember what happens what when you ask the government to fix your problems.

In a effort to bring this thread full circle, the thread began with a question about whether there might be violence in Ukraine, if Russians were participating in the celebrations. The short answer is, there are Ukrainians who still have strongly negative feelings towards Russia, so violence is always a possibility. This evaluation does not pass judgement about the rationality of the hostile feelings; rather, it simply notes that these sentiments exist, and violence is possible. The relationship between Russia and Ukraine is long and complex. Conflicts and attitudes that have festered over many generations are unlikely to be fully resolved in only a generation or two.

The good news is, at least 50% of the people reading this thread find Russians and Ukrainians to be simply adorable!

[mox 298]

In a effort to bring this thread full circle, the thread began with a question about whether there might be violence in Ukraine...

Actually the thread began with a reminder not to forget about May 9. It's unfortunate that we always have to turn these things political, maybe next time Easter or Christmas rolls around I'll start in with a rant about Christian oppression and how Jesus urged us to kill our children. Er...you know...more than I have already.

[Advanced Aardvark 82]

Actually the thread began with a reminder not to forget about May 9. It's unfortunate that we always have to turn these things political, maybe next time Easter or Christmas rolls around I'll start in with a rant about Christian oppression and how Jesus urged us to kill our children. Er...you know...more than I have already.

Yes, and let's not forget to mention what the Druids have been doing to shrubbery for millennia!

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

In a effort to bring this thread full circle, the thread began with a question about whether there might be violence in Ukraine, if Russians were participating in the celebrations. The short answer is, there are Ukrainians who still have strongly negative feelings towards Russia, so violence is always a possibility. This evaluation does not pass judgement about the rationality of the hostile feelings; rather, it simply notes that these sentiments exist, and violence is possible. The relationship between Russia and Ukraine is long and complex. Conflicts and attitudes that have festered over many generations are unlikely to be fully resolved in only a generation or two.

The good news is, at least 50% of the people reading this thread find Russians and Ukrainians to be simply adorable!

As Mox points out this is not a political thread. My father, who is no longer with us and a veteran of Africa, Sicily and Europe would gladly celebrate the end of WW2 (regardless of what you called it) with anyone that was there with him on either front...or either side for that matter, and he certainly did not miss out on the first May 9 celebration with Russian soldiers.

I find it hard to get my head around the idea of a veteran of one war having little respect for veterans of another war. But, hey, adult elected officials in Montgomery Alabama passed a state law banning the ownership sex toys by other adults to prevent dueling...so people do stupid things I cannot understand.

We were taught in the south that we, the USA, never had a civil war, we had a "War between the States". What difference does it make what it is called? WW1 was not called WW1 until after WW2...so what? For what it is worth, I most often heard it referred to in Ukraine as "the second war", though it was previously called the GPW...and Donetsk was Stalino and St Petersburg was Leningrad...and...what?