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Baby boy survives for nearly two days after abortion

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Bottom-line is this: taking another's life is wrong, whether by murder or abortion, its still taking something that does not belong to you and depriving one of their God-given right to live.

That is "an opinion", it's not the "only opinion".

Hardly a "bottom line".

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Bottom-line is this: taking another's life is wrong, whether by murder or abortion, its still taking something that does not belong to you and depriving one of their God-given right to live.

Thanks for transposing your religious morality onto rational discussion. :rolleyes:

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This story doesn't shock me too much.

In the UK, in some hospitals, medical staff are told NOT to give any aid to a premature baby born before 23/24 weeks. Someone from my high school gave birth to twin girls at 22.5 weeks and was told that although they were born alive, they weren't allowed to intervene with medical help, and they died 4 hours later. She's never gotten over it.

I think it's about time we seriously looked at the abortion laws. Abortions allowed at 24 weeks?? That's disgusting. At that time, the baby has genitals, fingers, eyelids, everything. It's been shown that they can survive outside the womb at that age, so why do we still allow abortion at that age? I think it should be lowered to 15 weeks.

Edited by Gemmie
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This story doesn't shock me too much.

In the UK, in some hospitals, medical staff are told NOT to give any aid to a premature baby born before 23/24 weeks. Someone from my high school gave birth to twin girls at 22.5 weeks and was told that although they were born alive, they weren't allowed to intervene with medical help, and they died 4 hours later. She's never gotten over it.

I think it's about time we seriously looked at the abortion laws. Abortions allowed at 24 weeks?? That's disgusting. At that time, the baby has genitals, fingers, eyelids, everything. It's been shown that they can survive outside the womb at that age, so why do we still allow abortion at that age? I think it should be lowered to 15 weeks.

I would imagine that abortions at the 24 week stage are extremely rare - for example if the fetus has severe brain damage. When that happens, and the prospective parents are looking at years of expensive care with a bedridden child who will never be able to walk, speak and has to be fed by tubes, the parents should be able to make their own decision.

I'd certainly wouldn't envy a couple having to make a decision under circumstances like that. I certainly wouldn't be willing to judge them for it.

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You aren't interested in my opinion, only the specific words used and the fact that I didn't write a big essay with a bunch of disclaimers.

Again, all this proves is that you treat a subject that you supposedly feel passionate about as a joke. Frankly, I find that kinda offensive.

i know your opinion & you know mine. i called you on what you said.

dude, if me doing exactly what you do 24/7 in offensive & you don't want to read it. put me on ignore. i had you on ignore for awhile, then i just decided to picture 'stewie' from the family guy everytime i read your post. now i find you funny & less annoying. kinda fits don't it? a liitle kid w/ a brit accent getting all pissy that the world doesn't submit & conform to his views. ;)

7yqZWFL.jpg
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i know your opinion & you know mine. i called you on what you said.

As I said, I know that you aren't interested in my opinion because if you were we'd be talking about the topic.

On the evidence of what you wrote below, clearly you aren't interested. That's OK - you've just proved right is all ;)

dude, if me doing exactly what you do 24/7 in offensive & you don't want to read it. put me on ignore. i had you on ignore for awhile, then i just decided to picture 'stewie' from the family guy everytime i read your post. now i find you funny & less annoying. kinda fits don't it? a liitle kid w/ a brit accent getting all pissy that the world doesn't submit & conform to his views. ;)

If I didn't want to read it I wouldn't have replied to it. Now if you feel you need to "ignore" people because you have a problem with impulse control and can't keep your lid on your temper, then perhaps you might want to rethink how you spend your free time.

But certainly you might want to think twice about trying to bait me, because you have clearly failed.

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*yawn*

better get back to your room & hide the plans for world domination better hurry brian almost found them.

*yawn* indeed Smoke. Trying to salvage what you can with a limited sense of humour are you?

Never mind, I'm sure a guy like you is thick skinned enough to not notice when he has made a complete ####### of himself ;)

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This story doesn't shock me too much.

In the UK, in some hospitals, medical staff are told NOT to give any aid to a premature baby born before 23/24 weeks. Someone from my high school gave birth to twin girls at 22.5 weeks and was told that although they were born alive, they weren't allowed to intervene with medical help, and they died 4 hours later. She's never gotten over it.

I think it's about time we seriously looked at the abortion laws. Abortions allowed at 24 weeks?? That's disgusting. At that time, the baby has genitals, fingers, eyelids, everything. It's been shown that they can survive outside the womb at that age, so why do we still allow abortion at that age? I think it should be lowered to 15 weeks.

This is truly sad, but in reality sometimes it's medically negligent to intervene in premature babies because the 'intervention' is more traumatic and as bound to fail as allowing the babies to die naturally. This is a sad truth. Nowadays, it is normal for the parents to hold and care for these premature babies so that they have as much time with their babies as is possible, which is different to how things happened in past times. I know we see these TV medical programs and believe that everyone can be saved no matter what. That's simply untrue.

Refusing to use the spellchick!

I have put you on ignore. No really, I have, but you are still ruining my enjoyment of this site. .

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I'll never understand why so many try to make a complex issue like abortion a Black & White issue ignoring all of the levels of gray...

These are my opinions on the subject:

I don't agree with abortion as a form of birth control, that's unhealthy and wrong.

I personally don't know at what point exactly a fetus is "viable" to survive outside the womb but I'd bet that it varies from one fetus to the next so allowing it in at a stage where viability could go either way is irresponsible.

While I don't like the idea of abortion I think it's narrow minded to say it should never be allowed. For everyone who thinks is cruel to raise a child who will never have a quality of life (bed-ridden with no communications, severe brain-damage etc) I wonder will you care for them? To assume it's a decision about money or convenience to the parents only is short sighted. My little guy is deaf, disabled but mild in the grand scheme of things, it means a lot of extra work & expenses for us but it's worth it because we can see him interacting with others and having quality in his life. Even with a mild disability my wife and I hurt everyday with & for him. How must it crush someone to have a child live a life dependent on machines, never able to go outside? I can't even begin to imagine it. What if there is a brilliant & active mind locked in a body that is twisted & unable to communicate with others? Do you really think they'd choose to live 20, 40, 60 years locked in a physical prison that is their own body?

Yes, I can see where abortion can be the compassionate choice in these extreme cases.

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Excuse me? No, they are not "murder victims" because the legal designation of killing "murder", "manslaughter", "accidental homicide" etc. etc. requires human beings to make a subjective determination on a specific series of events. If that were not the case, everyone who kills anyone whether by accident, design or misadventure would be a murderer.

This is not the case.

Furthermore, I doubt you'll find anyone who is pro-choice who believes that abortion should not be subject to some controls. I know I don't.

Okay, stigma of the word "murder" aside, you don't seem to dispute the fact that they were alive and are now dead. That is a very non-nuanced state of things, which is what my original point was.

So you think it is a good comparison to take a single quote and suggest that on the basis of it that my beliefs must somehow be synonymous with the policies of the 3rd Reich? Do you honestly think that this is reasonable?

Actually, I never said your beliefs were synonymous with the 3rd Reich. I said that Hitler would agree with your quote. I think it's true.

As I said, I quoted you because you were the only person who addressed the topic directly and didn't appear to be basing an opinion on the basis of emotional argument.

On the basis of what you've just written, I see that it was a mistake on my part to make that assumption. You clearly aren't interested in a sober discussion about the subject because if you were, there would be no need for hysterical comparisons to Adolf Hitler and you would be able to address a complex subject beyond the limit of your preconceived ideas.

I can discuss the issue as deeply as you want. That doesn't change the simple reality that it was alive and you chose to change that. No matter how deep you go, that simple fact underlies and colors the issue.

You respond to a post that was offering an opinion on the subject under discussion and you immediately compare that opinion to Adolf Hitler... and you don't see that as hostile? inflammatory?

Unbelievable :rolleyes:

Why should I? Because if I don't your ridiculous comparison stands?

I only see that as inflammatory if you don't agree with Hitler. But so far, it seems you do agree on the issue. Thus I have just stated the facts and I don't know why that is offensive.

Well, it doesn't necessarily stand. But if you think your opinion substantially differs from that of Hitler on this issue, I would assume you could explain the concrete differences.

For some reason, I don't feel much inclined to carry on this conversation.

Okay. You haven't really added any substance anyways.

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I'll never understand why so many try to make a complex issue like abortion a Black & White issue ignoring all of the levels of gray...

These are my opinions on the subject:

I don't agree with abortion as a form of birth control, that's unhealthy and wrong.

I personally don't know at what point exactly a fetus is "viable" to survive outside the womb but I'd bet that it varies from one fetus to the next so allowing it in at a stage where viability could go either way is irresponsible.

While I don't like the idea of abortion I think it's narrow minded to say it should never be allowed. For everyone who thinks is cruel to raise a child who will never have a quality of life (bed-ridden with no communications, severe brain-damage etc) I wonder will you care for them? To assume it's a decision about money or convenience to the parents only is short sighted. My little guy is deaf, disabled but mild in the grand scheme of things, it means a lot of extra work & expenses for us but it's worth it because we can see him interacting with others and having quality in his life. Even with a mild disability my wife and I hurt everyday with & for him. How must it crush someone to have a child live a life dependent on machines, never able to go outside? I can't even begin to imagine it. What if there is a brilliant & active mind locked in a body that is twisted & unable to communicate with others? Do you really think they'd choose to live 20, 40, 60 years locked in a physical prison that is their own body?

Yes, I can see where abortion can be the compassionate choice in these extreme cases.

I guess unless you've gone through that sort of experience, you can't really know what you would do in a similar situation.

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Okay, stigma of the word "murder" aside, you don't seem to dispute the fact that they were alive and are now dead. That is a very non-nuanced state of things, which is what my original point was.

Yes... they were alive and are now dead. We're talking about abortion, not a hair appointment :wacko:

You made a very specific claim that abortion is "murder". Murder is a legal designation that is applied by the courts according to a series of circumstances.

Actually, I never said your beliefs were synonymous with the 3rd Reich. I said that Hitler would agree with your quote. I think it's true.

If Hitler liked chocolate ice cream, and so do you, do you think that would be be relevant to this discussion?

Okay, I can discuss the issue as deeply as you want.

No, you can't discuss it "deeply", because you've already stated outright that abortion is "murder". No if's, no but's, no exceptions. You've taken a stance that is both extremist and intolerant.

That doesn't change the simple reality that it was alive and you chose to change that. No matter how deep you go, that simple fact underlies and colors the issue.

I didn't choose to change anything. I only believe in the right of individuals to govern their own bodies and bodily processes and to make informed decisions thereof.

I only see that as inflammatory if you don't agree with Hitler. But so far, it seems you do agree on the issue. Thus I have just stated the facts and I don't know why that is offensive.

Well, it doesn't necessarily stand. But if you think your opinion substantially differs from that of Hitler on this issue, I would assume you could explain the concrete differences.

I could, but why should I when you have written me off at the outset without actually giving me the courtesy of further explanation. Why should I be motivated to justify my opinion to you, when you have written it off out of hand by suggesting that it is Hitleresque?

Okay. You haven't really added any substance anyways.

You don't get something for nothing, and you get what you pay for.

I'm not going to waste my time justifying an opinion that I didn't get to elaborate on to someone who has used to to make a knee-jerk comparison to Hitler. Give me a reason why I should.

Edited by Its a MADHOUSE
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I guess unless you've gone through that sort of experience, you can't really know what you would do in a similar situation.

It's easy to pass judgment about others' decisions when you've never been in the agonizing position of dealing with a grim prenatal diagnosis. A lot of people are prone to fantasy and seem to rely more on amazing and inspiring stories of survival rather than look at the reality of the mortality rates of certain birth defects and babies born prematurely.

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It's easy to pass judgment about others' decisions when you've never been in the agonizing position of dealing with a grim prenatal diagnosis. A lot of people are prone to fantasy and seem to rely more on amazing and inspiring stories of survival rather than look at the reality of the mortality rates of certain birth defects and babies born prematurely.

I've known a few people who have had to look after brain-damaged children and elderly relatives with Alzheimer's or stroke damage.

It certainly isn't a choice for the faint of heart and you have to be prepared to give up your own quality of life in order to do it. If a couple is young enough or healthy enough to have another child it's probably kinder to abort than to put themselves and an infant through years of pain and suffering.

Personally, my concern if I had a child that required round the clock care for catastrophic disabilities would be on it outliving me. It's one thing to care for it yourself, another to put a burden on other people. Not fair to anyone really.

Edited by Its a MADHOUSE
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