Getting her out of vacation mode

[rlogan 2,036]

The comment about with holding bedroom privileges was in reply to Slim's comment that it was a two way street and either party could technically do it. It was said in jest. More along of the lines of, would a woman even notice if a guy was with holding bedroom privileges?

Mine sure would.

The strategy I've undertaken is I put together a large list of things that need to be done. And I mean it really is a large list of things. >40 things. I didn't say, you do this, I will do that. They were all things we had talked about in passing with no serious weight to the conversation. I made the list right before dinner and she grabbed the list during dinner and read through it. Asking what some of the items are on the list.

Some of the items were clearly going to be done by me, change the oil in the car. Some items could be done by either one of us. She mentioned, you never asked me to do, xyz. Ok, I will play along. I did but maybe I didn't say it like, "do XYZ NOW!!!" Not my style, never will be.

I put the list on the fridge. Friday night she asked me, "what are we going to do this weekend?"

I replied, "I was just thinking about that, I was going over the list in my head, and I think I will do a,b,c,d,e,f, and g."

She was like, "You are going to do all of that this weekend?"

I said, "Yes I am going to do all of that before lunch on Saturday."

"WOW!!!"

I kept my word and started cracking out the items on the list. For the record I finished A-F before lunch and was halfway through G. She got the point and was working on J, K, O, and Q.

So, I think some posters comments on communication were correct. However it wasn't specific enough. We had talked about all of the items on the list, except 1 or 2. The part that was lacking, was I wasn't clarifying what I was expecting from here. I didn't implicitly state I want you to do J, K, O and Q. It would have felt as I was giving her orders, and that isn't constructive to my relationship. I allowed her to come to her own resolve, she could see the list of things that I needed or wanted done. Mind you, many items on the list were things she desired also. And she then say I was completing things and if she helped, then we would have time to do things together.

I don't want my spouse to be my maid. Although I do expect her to contribute 50% of the effort around the house. And in some cases maybe 66% because you have more time than I do.

I'm really glad you wrote again. It clarified some things. Forgive my levity, but my first reaction was "wow, that's a defective unit there and you need to trade in for one of these Filipina units, which I find deleriously wonderful."

I thought she was possibly depressed, but that does not explain washing her own clothes but not yours. That is called selfishness in the context of the story you have related.

I had planned to immigrate my wife, have her get a degree in accounting, and be making more money than me. I thought it would make her independent, especially financially, and self-actualized.

And I see here in your post the same thing I was thinking: I am not marrying a maid. As if doing laundry for the person you love is actually an act of servitude, something beneath you. A lesser-class person because you make dinner.

I have had a revolution in my thinking. Because of my wife. She studies me. In two years she knows me better than I know myself. She doesn't give a darn about accounting or school or anything except that omnipresent meter: how is my husband doing. What does he need.

Remember how you said she gave a blank look when you said that she ought to be doing more work around the house? Yet she felt guilty about not working? And that she denied you mentioned it before? Obtuse!

Oh, there was definitely a huge communication gap that seems to have been partially solved by the list you made. But the fact you had to make one in the first place, and then the continued innate lack of husband-radar for lack of a better word. When I come in from the cold my wife has a cup of hot chocolate in my hands and crackers with cheese melted on top before I have my boots off. I can't list the things she does because decorum prohibits full disclosure. But it's amazing. Nuclear powered dynamo.

What it has done for me (us) is vastly increase my productivity because working at twenty to fifty below zero outside is so punishing you need a support unit inside full-time. Also my motivation. You put a loving woman behind a man, knowing his every little muscle ache, and then see what that man will do for his wife. I mean, sometimes I don't want to let on I have some pain because she's getting the tiger balm and ordering me to lay down. Going to put half an hour into rubbing it.

So she volunteers. Your wife. On the one hand I am thinking, OK so she isn't lazy per se, but she's OK with leaving the house to do things for other people at no compensation instead of washing her husband's clothes at the same time she is washing her own. There is still something here I would not accept in my own marriage.

I'd like to see the list of things women are prohibited from doing for a man because they are beneath her dignity. I disagree with that whole implicit thinking now. Because what my wife does for me is so priceless. What a relief it would be if someone took the time to observe what things you like or dislike and transformed your whole life from miserable to wonderful. Never before have I had the ability to just reach on a shelf and get a clean shirt. My God, I don't even do that much. The clothes are laid out for me.

There is some unspoken PC rule, almost, that they take the most valuable things she does for our household and says those are the very things she is not allowed to do. Anything but those. And so you, in conformity with that principle, ask if you are out of line for expecting her to pull some weight in the relationship. Well of course not if it means laundry, cooking, cleaning, or anything else on this unspoken list of what women are prohibited from doing for men. The PC list of banned work.

My immigrant wife could not get her social security card because the SS office is incredibly incompetent. But she helps me in the business too, and we call her my "sexitary". She is my door registration girl at meetings I have to do, and my girl Friday. Secretary with benefits. Personal assistant or whatever. We laugh about sexitary because in a way it is the same alleged subservient role the PC cops are wont to stomp out. I am exploiting her.

Before, I had years of marriage or relationships to the "independent woman" that in retrospect followed this idea. They were just living with me and doing what they wanted. No children.

My ex-wife came to me in a similar situation as yours. I was doing all the working, by far and away, she had what would be considered recreational things like bodybuilding competitions. Dance. Well, she demanded I do 50% of the housework, and the standard had to be set by her.

It was extremely stressful and I was working overtime, but Wednesdays I had to vacuum. I cooked 100% and did my own laundry and dishes. This "housework" thing was the toilet and sink and stove and yadda yadda yadda...

I was thinking to myself, and I was in anguish over how unfair it was - how can she not see what an outrage this is? I was working two full-time jobs essentially and she was just doing these body beautiful things. There is only so much time in a day. One person has time and the other doesn't.

So y'know to further the dark side of this sinister thinking there's your fear of withholding sex from you if she is made to stoop. No sex if you make me wash dishes. I would never have stood for that - not for a day - and that was not my problem with the ex-wife, nor is it now. I was voluntarily accepting the creed that she is independent of me and does not do things on the PC work-ban list. She went beyond that to demand I had the positive duty to vacuum on Wednesday night and all. No, as a matter of fact when I am working like I am, and you are not, then such a demand is intolerable. You're fired.

But she was not fired for failing to pull her weight in the bedroom.

It was not our plan to have my immigrant wife end up being this super-facilitator on our team. And now a mother. But it is how things have turned out, and they make by far the most sense for us. I have heard this kind of role-relationship referred to negatively: a "maid with benefits". I see now how unfair that label is. How it demeans what is actually a huge blessing and improvement in quality of life.

I never had a woman even notice what kind of pop I drank really, and this one has five cases of it, plus the one opened, in the kitchen. I don't remember what being hungry was like. I cooked every day for over 30 years. I never cook now. Never wash a dish. No laundry. No vacuuming. Nothing. You said 66% was OK. If she wasn't working. It's not quite half of what I am getting, which is 110%. And mine works for my company a little, plus I do some expedition type stuff. I have to put her on salary at mining camp. She absolutely earns that.

Hmmmm.... As a matter of fact I did have a 22 y.o. maid with benefits at one time. For about six or eight months. Less than a year. I hired her as a maid and the benefits were her idea. My wife blows her out of the water. She is uncanny with her ability to have completed what I need before I even utter a word. Watching. Telling me to remember my felt pens, already has something going in the kitchen for when I get back inside...

I think the bottom line here between us buddy is that this unit I got here is hardwired to make sure I am the happiest guy on earth. Women differ in that way of course. Communication is so terribly important, as you have found. But attitude too. You don't need to even tell them what you need when they are really paying attention. Making it their business to know.

Edited November 11, 2009 by rlogan

[visaveteran 1]

The comment about with holding bedroom privileges was in reply to Slim's comment that it was a two way street and either party could technically do it. It was said in jest. More along of the lines of, would a woman even notice if a guy was with holding bedroom privileges?

Mine sure would.

The strategy I've undertaken is I put together a large list of things that need to be done. And I mean it really is a large list of things. >40 things. I didn't say, you do this, I will do that. They were all things we had talked about in passing with no serious weight to the conversation. I made the list right before dinner and she grabbed the list during dinner and read through it. Asking what some of the items are on the list.

Some of the items were clearly going to be done by me, change the oil in the car. Some items could be done by either one of us. She mentioned, you never asked me to do, xyz. Ok, I will play along. I did but maybe I didn't say it like, "do XYZ NOW!!!" Not my style, never will be.

I put the list on the fridge. Friday night she asked me, "what are we going to do this weekend?"

I replied, "I was just thinking about that, I was going over the list in my head, and I think I will do a,b,c,d,e,f, and g."

She was like, "You are going to do all of that this weekend?"

I said, "Yes I am going to do all of that before lunch on Saturday."

"WOW!!!"

I kept my word and started cracking out the items on the list. For the record I finished A-F before lunch and was halfway through G. She got the point and was working on J, K, O, and Q.

So, I think some posters comments on communication were correct. However it wasn't specific enough. We had talked about all of the items on the list, except 1 or 2. The part that was lacking, was I wasn't clarifying what I was expecting from here. I didn't implicitly state I want you to do J, K, O and Q. It would have felt as I was giving her orders, and that isn't constructive to my relationship. I allowed her to come to her own resolve, she could see the list of things that I needed or wanted done. Mind you, many items on the list were things she desired also. And she then say I was completing things and if she helped, then we would have time to do things together.

I don't want my spouse to be my maid. Although I do expect her to contribute 50% of the effort around the house. And in some cases maybe 66% because you have more time than I do.

I'm really glad you wrote again. It clarified some things. Forgive my levity, but my first reaction was "wow, that's a defective unit there and you need to trade in for one of these Filipina units, which I find deleriously wonderful."

I thought she was possibly depressed, but that does not explain washing her own clothes but not yours. That is called selfishness in the context of the story you have related.

I had planned to immigrate my wife, have her get a degree in accounting, and be making more money than me. I thought it would make her independent, especially financially, and self-actualized.

And I see here in your post the same thing I was thinking: I am not marrying a maid. As if doing laundry for the person you love is actually an act of servitude, something beneath you. A lesser-class person because you make dinner.

I have had a revolution in my thinking. Because of my wife. She studies me. In two years she knows me better than I know myself. She doesn't give a darn about accounting or school or anything except that omnipresent meter: how is my husband doing. What does he need.

Remember how you said she gave a blank look when you said that she ought to be doing more work around the house? Yet she felt guilty about not working? And that she denied you mentioned it before? Obtuse!

Oh, there was definitely a huge communication gap that seems to have been partially solved by the list you made. But the fact you had to make one in the first place, and then the continued innate lack of husband-radar for lack of a better word. When I come in from the cold my wife has a cup of hot chocolate in my hands and crackers with cheese melted on top before I have my boots off. I can't list the things she does because decorum prohibits full disclosure. But it's amazing. Nuclear powered dynamo.

What it has done for me (us) is vastly increase my productivity because working at twenty to fifty below zero outside is so punishing you need a support unit inside full-time. Also my motivation. You put a loving woman behind a man, knowing his every little muscle ache, and then see what that man will do for his wife. I mean, sometimes I don't want to let on I have some pain because she's getting the tiger balm and ordering me to lay down. Going to put half an hour into rubbing it.

So she volunteers. Your wife. On the one hand I am thinking, OK so she isn't lazy per se, but she's OK with leaving the house to do things for other people at no compensation instead of washing her husband's clothes at the same time she is washing her own. There is still something here I would not accept in my own marriage.

I'd like to see the list of things women are prohibited from doing for a man because they are beneath her dignity. I disagree with that whole implicit thinking now. Because what my wife does for me is so priceless. What a relief it would be if someone took the time to observe what things you like or dislike and transformed your whole life from miserable to wonderful. Never before have I had the ability to just reach on a shelf and get a clean shirt. My God, I don't even do that much. The clothes are laid out for me.

There is some unspoken PC rule, almost, that they take the most valuable things she does for our household and says those are the very things she is not allowed to do. Anything but those. And so you, in conformity with that principle, ask if you are out of line for expecting her to pull some weight in the relationship. Well of course not if it means laundry, cooking, cleaning, or anything else on this unspoken list of what women are prohibited from doing for men. The PC list of banned work.

My immigrant wife could not get her social security card because the SS office is incredibly incompetent. But she helps me in the business too, and we call her my "sexitary". She is my door registration girl at meetings I have to do, and my girl Friday. Secretary with benefits. Personal assistant or whatever. We laugh about sexitary because in a way it is the same alleged subservient role the PC cops are wont to stomp out. I am exploiting her.

Before, I had years of marriage or relationships to the "independent woman" that in retrospect followed this idea. They were just living with me and doing what they wanted. No children.

My ex-wife came to me in a similar situation as yours. I was doing all the working, by far and away, she had what would be considered recreational things like bodybuilding competitions. Dance. Well, she demanded I do 50% of the housework, and the standard had to be set by her.

It was extremely stressful and I was working overtime, but Wednesdays I had to vacuum. I cooked 100% and did my own laundry and dishes. This "housework" thing was the toilet and sink and stove and yadda yadda yadda...

I was thinking to myself, and I was in anguish over how unfair it was - how can she not see what an outrage this is? I was working two full-time jobs essentially and she was just doing these body beautiful things. There is only so much time in a day. One person has time and the other doesn't.

So y'know to further the dark side of this sinister thinking there's your fear of withholding sex from you if she is made to stoop. No sex if you make me wash dishes. I would never have stood for that - not for a day - and that was not my problem with the ex-wife, nor is it now. I was voluntarily accepting the creed that she is independent of me and does not do things on the PC work-ban list. She went beyond that to demand I had the positive duty to vacuum on Wednesday night and all. No, as a matter of fact when I am working like I am, and you are not, then such a demand is intolerable. You're fired.

But she was not fired for failing to pull her weight in the bedroom.

It was not our plan to have my immigrant wife end up being this super-facilitator on our team. And now a mother. But it is how things have turned out, and they make by far the most sense for us. I have heard this kind of role-relationship referred to negatively: a "maid with benefits". I see now how unfair that label is. How it demeans what is actually a huge blessing and improvement in quality of life.

I never had a woman even notice what kind of pop I drank really, and this one has five cases of it, plus the one opened, in the kitchen. I don't remember what being hungry was like. I cooked every day for over 30 years. I never cook now. Never wash a dish. No laundry. No vacuuming. Nothing. You said 66% was OK. If she wasn't working. It's not quite half of what I am getting, which is 110%. And mine works for my company a little, plus I do some expedition type stuff. I have to put her on salary at mining camp. She absolutely earns that.

Hmmmm.... As a matter of fact I did have a 22 y.o. maid with benefits at one time. For about six or eight months. Less than a year. I hired her as a maid and the benefits were her idea. My wife blows her out of the water. She is uncanny with her ability to have completed what I need before I even utter a word. Watching. Telling me to remember my felt pens, already has something going in the kitchen for when I get back inside...

I think the bottom line here between us buddy is that this unit I got here is hardwired to make sure I am the happiest guy on earth. Women differ in that way of course. Communication is so terribly important, as you have found. But attitude too. You don't need to even tell them what you need when they are really paying attention. Making it their business to know.

A great post! Very well said! And very cleanly and even eloquently laid out.

The sad thing for America is once upon a time men and women operated in this same mode of being. If feminism is supposed to make women happier, I don't see it in my observations. Nor has it made better male-female relationships. It has simply made marriage more of a competitive sport. All I see is power plays and "control by withhold" relationships. If you withhold this, then I withhold that. When you mentioned your old girlfriend pushed you to vacuum on Wednesdays, the power play there, though unspoken, was that if you don't vacuum, then I will withhold something you want or need from me. You can surrender and vacuum, or resist and accept the "thing" being withheld.

Well, things have flipped right side up again...at least for me. Nothing is withheld from me. There is no taking away...only giving.

[lilajean 0]

I'm also not so sure "confidence" is the primary reason most women slog to the grocery store in Jammie bottoms and no make-up.

I go to the store that way, I dunno why my wife shouldn't.

I'm very glad I do not have a "fashionable" wife. That fashion ###### is expensive...and a huge waste of money IMHO.

my husband does not like me to wear makeup. i am used to dressing up and wear makeup but he says i am best without makeup looking fresh and natural. he sometimes tease me when he see me putting on makeup and jewelry to go to the store.

i do like that he prefers me natural, makes me feel confident and happy. but i tell him "sometimes ladies like to dress up for other ladies too!" and make myself up.

[rlogan 2,036]

Well, things have flipped right side up again...at least for me. Nothing is withheld from me. There is no taking away...only giving.

Isn't that great?

We try to continually remind ourselves we're a team. If you start thinking "I'll do this to her so she will stop doing this to me..." It's already cause for concern. Take care of your team member and they're going to take care of you.

Well, if they don't then you better think about whether you want them on your team.

You have to admit where you are wrong and apologize too. Right away. Everyone makes mistakes. Full, unqualified "I screwed up I am sorry". Don't get adversarial and try to argue your way out of it. Pass blame and get resentment. Justifiable resentment.

Try to live in a way that is a statement to her instead of promising the moon.

Ha ha lilajean.

I don't like make-up either. But I am not going to stop her from using it if she wants to.

But I also do not like to shave. 22 years running I had a beard. Nobody knew me when I returned from the Philippines. The men here have beards. Interior Alaska. Wow your face gets cold in the arctic without a beard and I am outside every day in the worst of it.

Even at only twenty below zero your cheeks get so cold you cannot form words completely because your cheeks and jaw are not working the same without insulation to keep them warm. That is my experience. At fifty below zero just forget about it. I was trapping at 82 below zero near coldfoot in the Brooks Range one year. I sure liked having my beard. I won't listen to any horse manure about beards not keeping my face and neck warm. You have to keep them dry though. Need to know how to keep frost from accumulating.

Of course I was single then because the population of single women on traplines in the Brooks Range is... zero. Kind of been static at that level for a really long time, like 400 years. I was doing 126 miles of line then and never saw a woman at all, in fact. You seem to find them in towns.

My wife likes a shaved face. So I shave. Think about what a little trifle that is in a day. For me to do that for her. Even though there are no people in the woods for me to impress. Not just the shaving part. The cold face part. The glands below my jaw. If I trimmed my beard like a little nancy-boy it would not keep that part of me warm. You want a bushy thing.

I don't need to shave for business. Showing up shaved to a bid is like "OK, who's the outsider here... he's probably from Seattle" I cut my hair so short people think I am an army dude. Jesus my head is cold.

So you know, this radar has to work both ways. OK hon, I get the message. Short hair and shave. You don't have to ask me. A relationship takes work and this is a small daily sacrifice for me to do for her. I see you there without make-up just looking so naturally beautiful. I'll just go shave now so you can feel the same way about me.

Ha ha! I am doing undercover arctic mountain man living. Disguised as an army dude.

I can do that. Cracks me up.

cheers to all. Best of luck.

[slim 1,514]

I just got an urge to move to Alaska.

[Brad and Vika 129]

The sad thing for America is once upon a time men and women operated in this same mode of being. If feminism is supposed to make women happier, I don't see it in my observations. Nor has it made better male-female relationships. It has simply made marriage more of a competitive sport. All I see is power plays and "control by withhold" relationships. If you withhold this, then I withhold that. When you mentioned your old girlfriend pushed you to vacuum on Wednesdays, the power play there, though unspoken, was that if you don't vacuum, then I will withhold something you want or need from me. You can surrender and vacuum, or resist and accept the "thing" being withheld.

Well, things have flipped right side up again...at least for me. Nothing is withheld from me. There is no taking away...only giving.

[Cacerez 19]

Gee, I just thought it was my wife sleeping late unless she had something she wanted to do. This summer she discovered along with some of her friends a large mountain lake about an hour drive from our home. So, we had to get up at 5:00 AM on Saturday or Sunday to get up to the lake before all the boaters and jet skiers arrived. Those are the days when I like to sleep in until about 8:00. Nice to know I'm not alone.

I suspect this is a rather large club we are in.

Only women like to sleep in late? On the weekends I'm always up before my husband!

[Cacerez 19]

being American-like in her behavior. This means lazy, uncooperative, and may use the sexual withholding game.

I am 23 y.o. American female and am NOT lazy, uncooperative, and I certainly don't do something so childish that could have such long-reaching effects.

[Cacerez 19]

Visaveteran, FFS. I'm 23 and AMERICAN and I do things around the house AND go to work. Your generalizations are ridiculous.

I can only speak from my experience and observations. If you are the exception, good for you, but I look at magnitude and degree and what is the preponderance of things. And it is interesting you also seem to prefer foreigners over Americans. Maybe you too understand things are out of whack in the USA dating scene.

Just because we found a foreigner and fell in love does not mean that we prefer foreigners over Americans. I just happened to find the love of my life in a foreign country...but I certainly didn't go hunting for that purpose!

[Cacerez 19]

So, after catching up on this post for the last hour, I realize that my comments were too late While I picked up on some common American Women-Bashing themes, overall the OP seemed to have worked out his issues and actually had some very good ideas. For me, as an American woman with a Latino husband who moved from living with his parents (and older sister, who did most of the cooking and cleaning along with his mother), we have had to do some adjustments as well. Before he got his job, and after some prodding from me, he always did the dishes and swept/mopped the floors, and I did most of the rest. At the moment, he is working 60 hours a week and only occasionally washes the dishes. But he still does something, even working more hours than me!

And a general comment about knowing how to use washing machines, not sure about RUB, but my husband had never had a washing machine, the clothes in his house were washed by his mother or sister in a big sink (called a pila) outside, and then hung to dry.

Either way, I'll have to check out this RUB forum a little more often...at least it's not as crazy as MENA! And Latin America is just plain on boring...

[Brad and Vika 129]

And a general comment about knowing how to use washing machines, not sure about RUB, but my husband had never had a washing machine, the clothes in his house were washed by his mother or sister in a big sink (called a pila) outside, and then hung to dry.

Either way, I'll have to check out this RUB forum a little more often...at least it's not as crazy as MENA! And Latin America is just plain on boring...

Welcome, and thanks for the comments. Sometimes visitors to our little corner of VJ can get a little excited when they read a few posts, without getting a flavor for the regular posters. We hope you are entertained!

As to washing machines. Many apartments in Ukraine have machines - quite small by our standards. They spin dry, but there are no "dry machines" - that is what balconies are for after all.

[AKguy 1]

As to washing machines. Many apartments in Ukraine have machines - quite small by our standards. They spin dry, but there are no "dry machines" - that is what balconies are for after all.

The 4 flats I visited in Russia were the same story. Washing machine and hang dry.

[SuperDuper! 230]

Gee, I just thought it was my wife sleeping late unless she had something she wanted to do. This summer she discovered along with some of her friends a large mountain lake about an hour drive from our home. So, we had to get up at 5:00 AM on Saturday or Sunday to get up to the lake before all the boaters and jet skiers arrived. Those are the days when I like to sleep in until about 8:00. Nice to know I'm not alone.

I suspect this is a rather large club we are in.

Only women like to sleep in late? On the weekends I'm always up before my husband!

I never wake up Grumpy. I let her sleep!