A Hard Situation

[Kenza 1]

It took me 3 years to finally convince my parents about my marriage, although it was because of my age. Inshallah do what's right and may Allah guide your family to what is truly important.

[No-Where-Man 147]

Hello Aya

i read all ur thread that u made here , first of all im so sorry for such hard situation u have

i read many comments here that vary between encouraging u to go a head with ur plans and to give ur self a chance with the family ...

let me please correct some of what been said here as of my personal true experience ...

home visitation happen mostly for MEN , but none said it DOESNT occur to females , if we didnt see it tht desnt mean it happen , and so to lie (and they found out ) this is MIS-REPRESENTATIONs ..and no doubt Visa will be denied by then..

also for whom said to just go a head with ur plans bla bla , we all know as of Muslim community that she cant just do it ..techincally YES , but as of Muslims ur family must approve it ..or ALAH will be so angry from u , specially u r female not a male ..and that will causeshame to ur parents , brothers and sisters amont ur big family , friends ..etc ..and im pretty sure my sister u know what i mean ,

looking to ur concerns it seems to me u r serious , honest and dont wana do anything wrong ...

if im in ur place i would try once more with them ..if no use ..then USE who can do the Job perfectly like a relative or close friends to parents tht have so tight relation with them ..i believe that will get u to where u want

be aware that although Embassy may not do home visitation ..but be 90 % sure they ask for picture with the family members (look to the mbassy reviews ) , and if u lied then u will find no way out then ,, please be calm ..patience and think clearly ,

our hearts with u sis ..........

[Kenza 1]

Hello Aya

i read all ur thread that u made here , first of all im so sorry for such hard situation u have

i read many comments here that vary between encouraging u to go a head with ur plans and to give ur self a chance with the family ...

let me please correct some of what been said here as of my personal true experience ...

home visitation happen mostly for MEN , but none said it DOESNT occur to females , if we didnt see it tht desnt mean it happen , and so to lie (and they found out ) this is MIS-REPRESENTATIONs ..and no doubt Visa will be denied by then..

also for whom said to just go a head with ur plans bla bla , we all know as of Muslim community that she cant just do it ..techincally YES , but as of Muslims ur family must approve it ..or ALAH will be so angry from u , specially u r female not a male ..and that will causeshame to ur parents , brothers and sisters amont ur big family , friends ..etc ..and im pretty sure my sister u know what i mean ,

looking to ur concerns it seems to me u r serious , honest and dont wana do anything wrong ...

if im in ur place i would try once more with them ..if no use ..then USE who can do the Job perfectly like a relative or close friends to parents tht have so tight relation with them ..i believe that will get u to where u want

be aware that although Embassy may not do home visitation ..but be 90 % sure they ask for picture with the family members (look to the mbassy reviews ) , and if u lied then u will find no way out then ,, please be calm ..patience and think clearly ,

our hearts with u sis ..........

[sandinista! 1,816]

Hello Aya

i read all ur thread that u made here , first of all im so sorry for such hard situation u have

i read many comments here that vary between encouraging u to go a head with ur plans and to give ur self a chance with the family ...

let me please correct some of what been said here as of my personal true experience ...

home visitation happen mostly for MEN , but none said it DOESNT occur to females , if we didnt see it tht desnt mean it happen , and so to lie (and they found out ) this is MIS-REPRESENTATIONs ..and no doubt Visa will be denied by then..

also for whom said to just go a head with ur plans bla bla , we all know as of Muslim community that she cant just do it ..techincally YES , but as of Muslims ur family must approve it ..or ALAH will be so angry from u , specially u r female not a male ..and that will causeshame to ur parents , brothers and sisters amont ur big family , friends ..etc ..and im pretty sure my sister u know what i mean ,

looking to ur concerns it seems to me u r serious , honest and dont wana do anything wrong ...

if im in ur place i would try once more with them ..if no use ..then USE who can do the Job perfectly like a relative or close friends to parents tht have so tight relation with them ..i believe that will get u to where u want

be aware that although Embassy may not do home visitation ..but be 90 % sure they ask for picture with the family members (look to the mbassy reviews ) , and if u lied then u will find no way out then ,, please be calm ..patience and think clearly ,

our hearts with u sis ..........

what rock did you crawl out from under to try and place this kind of guilt trip on her? islamically, she's well within her rights to choose her spouse, and plenty of scholars would agree that she is capable of deciding to go ahead and marry her fiance, even in these circumstances.

Islam does not recognize ethnic, racial or cultural barriers as impediments to marriages between Muslims; Islamic Fiqh does recognize compatibility (kafa’ah) as a leading factor to the success of the given marriage. But the concept of compatibility is relative in a society. Sometimes parents try to impose their understanding of compatibility upon the children who are born and raised in different cultural contexts. In this case Islam gives the right to girls to explain their situation and respectfully demand their rights, and in certain cases, personally make the best decisions for their own selves.

http://www.islamonline.net/livefatwa/engli...hGuestID=7LyROA

she would not be in the wrong for choosing to marry him. her parents would be though- the prophet himself said "If a well-mannered faithful man came to ask for the hand of your daughter, accept the offer, otherwise you will be creating fitnah and a serious mischief on earth."

but the last thing aya needs is some knuckle dragger like you to try and lay a guilt trip on her when she would be committing no sin by marrying a muslim man who loves her.

[msheesha 548]

Hello Aya

i read all ur thread that u made here , first of all im so sorry for such hard situation u have

i read many comments here that vary between encouraging u to go a head with ur plans and to give ur self a chance with the family ...

let me please correct some of what been said here as of my personal true experience ...

home visitation happen mostly for MEN , but none said it DOESNT occur to females , if we didnt see it tht desnt mean it happen , and so to lie (and they found out ) this is MIS-REPRESENTATIONs ..and no doubt Visa will be denied by then..

also for whom said to just go a head with ur plans bla bla , we all know as of Muslim community that she cant just do it ..techincally YES , but as of Muslims ur family must approve it ..or ALAH will be so angry from u , specially u r female not a male ..and that will causeshame to ur parents , brothers and sisters amont ur big family , friends ..etc ..and im pretty sure my sister u know what i mean ,

looking to ur concerns it seems to me u r serious , honest and dont wana do anything wrong ...

if im in ur place i would try once more with them ..if no use ..then USE who can do the Job perfectly like a relative or close friends to parents tht have so tight relation with them ..i believe that will get u to where u want

be aware that although Embassy may not do home visitation ..but be 90 % sure they ask for picture with the family members (look to the mbassy reviews ) , and if u lied then u will find no way out then ,, please be calm ..patience and think clearly ,

our hearts with u sis ..........

what rock did you crawl out from under to try and place this kind of guilt trip on her? islamically, she's well within her rights to choose her spouse, and plenty of scholars would agree that she is capable of deciding to go ahead and marry her fiance, even in these circumstances.

Islam does not recognize ethnic, racial or cultural barriers as impediments to marriages between Muslims; Islamic Fiqh does recognize compatibility (kafa’ah) as a leading factor to the success of the given marriage. But the concept of compatibility is relative in a society. Sometimes parents try to impose their understanding of compatibility upon the children who are born and raised in different cultural contexts. In this case Islam gives the right to girls to explain their situation and respectfully demand their rights, and in certain cases, personally make the best decisions for their own selves.

http://www.islamonline.net/livefatwa/engli...hGuestID=7LyROA

she would not be in the wrong for choosing to marry him. her parents would be though- the prophet himself said "If a well-mannered faithful man came to ask for the hand of your daughter, accept the offer, otherwise you will be creating fitnah and a serious mischief on earth."

but the last thing aya needs is some knuckle dragger like you to try and lay a guilt trip on her when she would be committing no sin by marrying a muslim man who loves her.

[Nothing1234 2]

Hello Aya

i read all ur thread that u made here , first of all im so sorry for such hard situation u have

i read many comments here that vary between encouraging u to go a head with ur plans and to give ur self a chance with the family ...

let me please correct some of what been said here as of my personal true experience ...

home visitation happen mostly for MEN , but none said it DOESNT occur to females , if we didnt see it tht desnt mean it happen , and so to lie (and they found out ) this is MIS-REPRESENTATIONs ..and no doubt Visa will be denied by then..

also for whom said to just go a head with ur plans bla bla , we all know as of Muslim community that she cant just do it ..techincally YES , but as of Muslims ur family must approve it ..or ALAH will be so angry from u , specially u r female not a male ..and that will causeshame to ur parents , brothers and sisters amont ur big family , friends ..etc ..and im pretty sure my sister u know what i mean ,

looking to ur concerns it seems to me u r serious , honest and dont wana do anything wrong ...

if im in ur place i would try once more with them ..if no use ..then USE who can do the Job perfectly like a relative or close friends to parents tht have so tight relation with them ..i believe that will get u to where u want

be aware that although Embassy may not do home visitation ..but be 90 % sure they ask for picture with the family members (look to the mbassy reviews ) , and if u lied then u will find no way out then ,, please be calm ..patience and think clearly ,

our hearts with u sis ..........

what rock did you crawl out from under to try and place this kind of guilt trip on her? islamically, she's well within her rights to choose her spouse, and plenty of scholars would agree that she is capable of deciding to go ahead and marry her fiance, even in these circumstances.

Islam does not recognize ethnic, racial or cultural barriers as impediments to marriages between Muslims; Islamic Fiqh does recognize compatibility (kafa’ah) as a leading factor to the success of the given marriage. But the concept of compatibility is relative in a society. Sometimes parents try to impose their understanding of compatibility upon the children who are born and raised in different cultural contexts. In this case Islam gives the right to girls to explain their situation and respectfully demand their rights, and in certain cases, personally make the best decisions for their own selves.

http://www.islamonline.net/livefatwa/engli...hGuestID=7LyROA

she would not be in the wrong for choosing to marry him. her parents would be though- the prophet himself said "If a well-mannered faithful man came to ask for the hand of your daughter, accept the offer, otherwise you will be creating fitnah and a serious mischief on earth."

but the last thing aya needs is some knuckle dragger like you to try and lay a guilt trip on her when she would be committing no sin by marrying a muslim man who loves her.

@ knuckle dragger.

[CnT4ever 1]

I don't think he's talking about marrying outside of culture. He's probably talking about the fact that a Muslim female who has never been married before cannot give herself in marriage. She must have the permission and blessings of her father. He has to be the one to give her away. Also, no imam, (valid imam) would allow a Muslim girl to marry anyone without the father, brother, uncle, etc present. Non-Muslim they can, but not Muslim girls. That is the view of mainstream Islam as it is told to me...other people with less popular views might find a way to manipulate the situation to their liking and say it's okay (like they do with the whole Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men) - as it is told to me.

I also wonder why the parents don't like him? Is it because he's not Egyptian? Because he's not Muslim? (I don't know if he is or isn't). Maybe he doesn't make enough money? Maybe they're scared their daughter will be abused? and there is no protecter here for her? You have to think about what is going through their minds. Is it possible the parents hate him for no reason? Maybe it's not hate, but fear...

[UmmSqueakster 54]

Actually, hanafis do not require a wali for the marriage to be valid

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13296013/Evidenc...a-Guardian-Wali

[Dr. A ♥ O 203]

Aya we had a similar situation. His Mom said let him marry who he wants his Dad said no way. Hubby did like Sharifah suggested and that was to find an ally in the family; his older sister. She got to know me and approved and spread the good word. Then when I went there we got married without the family present but went to meet the extended family and the Grandma gave the matriarch stamp of approval telling the Dad leave these kids alone. Olivia is so polite and kind and sweet and you would like her. Now on the second trip we got a wedding. Granted it was 2.5 years later but they saw I waited for him through the military and they attribute him finishing his Doctor in training because of me. They like the results they've seen in him since we've been together. It takes time and I am sure they are worried for you like some have mentioned. Some people are afraid of change and the unknown and find comfort in the familiar and for this we should go easy on them as they will eventually see. I'm sure your case will be fine and you may ease your mind.

[Ihavequestions 419]

but the last thing aya needs is some knuckle dragger like you to try and lay a guilt trip on her when she would be committing no sin by marrying a muslim man who loves her.

Laying the blame on Islam is wrong. Put it where it belongs: the cultures and traditions.

[sandinista! 1,816]

I don't think he's talking about marrying outside of culture. He's probably talking about the fact that a Muslim female who has never been married before cannot give herself in marriage. She must have the permission and blessings of her father. He has to be the one to give her away. Also, no imam, (valid imam) would allow a Muslim girl to marry anyone without the father, brother, uncle, etc present. Non-Muslim they can, but not Muslim girls. That is the view of mainstream Islam as it is told to me...other people with less popular views might find a way to manipulate the situation to their liking and say it's okay (like they do with the whole Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men) - as it is told to me.

I also wonder why the parents don't like him? Is it because he's not Egyptian? Because he's not Muslim? (I don't know if he is or isn't). Maybe he doesn't make enough money? Maybe they're scared their daughter will be abused? and there is no protecter here for her? You have to think about what is going through their minds. Is it possible the parents hate him for no reason? Maybe it's not hate, but fear...

aya told us why-"My family's only reason for disagreeing with me is that they want me to marry an Egyptian!" in the OP.

i personally don't consider the hanafi position on this marriage issue to be "manipulating the situation to one's liking and saying it's okay", but that's just me. her family's position is not islamically sound. i don't know of a single school that would allow rejection of a marriage proposal based on nationality. it's of course up to her to decide how to go about dealing with this, but that other guy's comments were out of line, and completely ignorant of the fact that much more learned hanafi scholars say she has every right to marry this man without having to worry about "ALAH will be so angry from u , specially u r female not a male ..and that will causeshame to ur parents , brothers and sisters amont ur big family , friends ..etc"

[Sandrila 1]

Aya

I wouldn't do anything to jeapordize the visa and if your parents are maybe you need to be on your own so they don't come between you and your fiance.

I also would not let on in an interview that they don't approve.

Good Luck Sweetie

[KHPerfectMatch 1]

I think whoever wrote that John needs to come to Egypt - regardless of whatever issues that creates... in order to give them however long they need to see that he is serious about their daughter... it might be a start towards obtaining their blessing. Call me old fashioned, but I think it's important...

As the Mom of a 21 year old son, I hope I instilled that in him... because I'm not far away from facing possibly a similar scenario, (God Forbid) it will be my son choosing to marry a young, Non-Muslim, non-arab, non-religious American, which to me is pretty alien... and he's a boy and he's not moving across the globe where he would be totally dependent on her...

I seem to recall that John was not Muslim when he met Aya, I think this is giving her family alot of anxiety because they don't know what kind of man changes his religion... (not a popular thing to do in Islamic culture) after he meets a woman on the internet halfway around the world... It's very common for Muslims from ANYWHERE to be suspicious of motive for reverting.... It's not nice, and probably not OK Islamically, but they are her parents....

They may have doubts about his deen and his practice of Islam, which could make them worry about how he would treat their "little girl" when she is far away in a strange land without any family member to turn to.

If he came to live near them so SOMEONE can "report" to them about his actions, behavior, manners, etc. PLUS showing he is willing to sacrifice his "cushy" life in the USA to come live near his love, MIGHT win them over... MAYBE. Sacrifice is practically FARD for Egyptian men who want to marry! They save $$$ during LONG engagements so they can afford the bride...

Plus I like this idea of him moving there so dear Aya can have longer to get to know him on a day to day basis face to face... I married my husband in Egypt and lived with him there in two seperate periods that equal about 3.5 months... and I STILL realize I didn't know him well. And heck I'm 50! I have a LOT more experience seeing through things...

An American Muslim man wouldn't have much trouble finding a job in Egypt is my guess... at least one that would support him while living there for a period of time... And the gesture would go a LONG ways to assure Aya's parents. There is SO MUCH MORE to this than the fact that he's not Egyptian... No way would I call this scenario a case of parents sinning because they didn't allow their daughter to marry a new revert from the USA...

I always tell young Muslim brothers who want a conservative practicing Muslim wife not to marry an American revert unless she's been Muslim ON HER OWN for at least 2 years. I think the same would apply here.... And this sister is young, I assume John is too, so they have plenty of time to take this slow and easy as an investment in goodwill with the family for the LONG TERM.

My Mom always told me that the test of maturity is the ability to postpone short term gratification for LONG TERM SUCCESS...

I hope that whatever is the best for Aya and John's religion, livelihood, and all of their affairs will be the result. God knows everything in the future, we know nothing. Ya Rab make us all content with your will for our lives. Ameen

[CnT4ever 1]

I don't think he's talking about marrying outside of culture. He's probably talking about the fact that a Muslim female who has never been married before cannot give herself in marriage. She must have the permission and blessings of her father. He has to be the one to give her away. Also, no imam, (valid imam) would allow a Muslim girl to marry anyone without the father, brother, uncle, etc present. Non-Muslim they can, but not Muslim girls. That is the view of mainstream Islam as it is told to me...other people with less popular views might find a way to manipulate the situation to their liking and say it's okay (like they do with the whole Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men) - as it is told to me.

I also wonder why the parents don't like him? Is it because he's not Egyptian? Because he's not Muslim? (I don't know if he is or isn't). Maybe he doesn't make enough money? Maybe they're scared their daughter will be abused? and there is no protecter here for her? You have to think about what is going through their minds. Is it possible the parents hate him for no reason? Maybe it's not hate, but fear...

aya told us why-"My family's only reason for disagreeing with me is that they want me to marry an Egyptian!" in the OP.

i personally don't consider the hanafi position on this marriage issue to be "manipulating the situation to one's liking and saying it's okay", but that's just me. her family's position is not islamically sound. i don't know of a single school that would allow rejection of a marriage proposal based on nationality. it's of course up to her to decide how to go about dealing with this, but that other guy's comments were out of line, and completely ignorant of the fact that much more learned hanafi scholars say she has every right to marry this man without having to worry about "ALAH will be so angry from u , specially u r female not a male ..and that will causeshame to ur parents , brothers and sisters amont ur big family , friends ..etc"

Maybe they are not hanafi? Anyway, I have no idea but the imam had said that if a girl is Muslim and never married before, then she must have her father present. It happened to me and to another lady which married a Muslim and we had to tell the imam that about not being Muslim and had no "wali" otherwise he wasn't going to do the religious marriage. Actually I'm not sure if he would have asked for the father anyway, but due to age, the father was deceased already.

Either way, telling a girl that comes from a "conservative" family in Egypt, to just ignore her parents and do what makes her happy is not responsible advice. That is Egypt, not America. Girls cannot just "do what they want"...they have consequences there that you seem to be forgetting...especially for girls.

I also agree with KH regarding the "conversions" I see taking place amongst "Muslims" right before marriage... it's very fishy in my opinion...yes, call me old fashioned too, but I wouldn't believe in a conversion that happened over night. If this John is a practicing Muslim, then it's upto him to follow the religion and prove his intentions in the religion to her and her parents. Trying to get a girl to have a relationship with him online and take her across the world without her parents blessings, is a piss poor way to do it if you ask me!

Besides, is it really allowed Islamically for the girl to leave and go alone to him without a chaperone and marry him? What happens if he "defiles" her before they marry? Who is her protector in this journey? What happens if he dumps her once she's here? Or starts making excuses and doesn't follow through? What if he becomes like the other men we hear about on VJ who bring over foreign wives and start abusing them and treating them like slaves...I see that in the "Effects of Family Changes" section. She will be alone without anyone to fall back on...and probably without her family if they decide to "disown" her for going off with him. Lots of things to think about...

[No-Where-Man 147]

I don't think he's talking about marrying outside of culture. He's probably talking about the fact that a Muslim female who has never been married before cannot give herself in marriage. She must have the permission and blessings of her father. He has to be the one to give her away. Also, no imam, (valid imam) would allow a Muslim girl to marry anyone without the father, brother, uncle, etc present. Non-Muslim they can, but not Muslim girls. That is the view of mainstream Islam as it is told to me...other people with less popular views might find a way to manipulate the situation to their liking and say it's okay (like they do with the whole Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men) - as it is told to me.

I also wonder why the parents don't like him? Is it because he's not Egyptian? Because he's not Muslim? (I don't know if he is or isn't). Maybe he doesn't make enough money? Maybe they're scared their daughter will be abused? and there is no protecter here for her? You have to think about what is going through their minds. Is it possible the parents hate him for no reason? Maybe it's not hate, but fear...

aya told us why-"My family's only reason for disagreeing with me is that they want me to marry an Egyptian!" in the OP.

i personally don't consider the hanafi position on this marriage issue to be "manipulating the situation to one's liking and saying it's okay", but that's just me. her family's position is not islamically sound. i don't know of a single school that would allow rejection of a marriage proposal based on nationality. it's of course up to her to decide how to go about dealing with this, but that other guy's comments were out of line, and completely ignorant of the fact that much more learned hanafi scholars say she has every right to marry this man without having to worry about "ALAH will be so angry from u , specially u r female not a male ..and that will causeshame to ur parents , brothers and sisters amont ur big family , friends ..etc"

Maybe they are not hanafi? Anyway, I have no idea but the imam had said that if a girl is Muslim and never married before, then she must have her father present. It happened to me and to another lady which married a Muslim and we had to tell the imam that about not being Muslim and had no "wali" otherwise he wasn't going to do the religious marriage. Actually I'm not sure if he would have asked for the father anyway, but due to age, the father was deceased already.

Either way, telling a girl that comes from a "conservative" family in Egypt, to just ignore her parents and do what makes her happy is not responsible advice. That is Egypt, not America. Girls cannot just "do what they want"...they have consequences there that you seem to be forgetting...especially for girls.

I also agree with KH regarding the "conversions" I see taking place amongst "Muslims" right before marriage... it's very fishy in my opinion...yes, call me old fashioned too, but I wouldn't believe in a conversion that happened over night. If this John is a practicing Muslim, then it's upto him to follow the religion and prove his intentions in the religion to her and her parents. Trying to get a girl to have a relationship with him online and take her across the world without her parents blessings, is a piss poor way to do it if you ask me!

Besides, is it really allowed Islamically for the girl to leave and go alone to him without a chaperone and marry him? What happens if he "defiles" her before they marry? Who is her protector in this journey? What happens if he dumps her once she's here? Or starts making excuses and doesn't follow through? What if he becomes like the other men we hear about on VJ who bring over foreign wives and start abusing them and treating them like slaves...I see that in the "Effects of Family Changes" section. She will be alone without anyone to fall back on...and probably without her family if they decide to "disown" her for going off with him. Lots of things to think about...

for the ones who attacked my comment with a blind way , here is what i meant :

im not throwing the responsibility of this over Islam my Religion ..actually thats not the fact

but brothers and sisters ..we cant deny the fact that parents approval is so important as for us Muslims ,,and all who read Quran and is a muslim know very well wzout any doubt and regardless (immam or Hanafi ) that Quran said that parents approval is a bless or we will live a life full of curses , who can deny taht Quran said so ?!

i put my comment from the Quran view not from ppl views ...

also , i know very well that as long as my sister Aya is a (girl -Virgin ) she dnt have the Authority according to Egyptian law to just go and marry her self to her beloved one , she is required to either be accompanied by her father, a guardian, a person in loco parentis, or a written consent from any of the above , so why everyone attacked as if im saying something so wrong ? isnt this our religion and our tradition ...and also our LAW in Egypt ?!

me my self dont know of any virgin one who can marry alone (legal marriage ) without what i said above ..if anyone did have such experience , so i will be glad to know it , but lets not forget ..its NOT AN INVITE to go a head ..please sister ...as ur man is important to u ...dnt forget ur family who bring u to this life and brought u up to be what u r ..wzout their agreements and blessings , u will never enjoy life or whats after Death ,,,

thank you all for listening

and for others ,,rather give an advise from Quran , or please stay seated , we dnt need any invites to whats wrong , not only traditionally ..but as of traditions ...Quran , and even by Egyptian LAW (as i know )

peace