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jg121783

Immigration, World Poverty and Gumballs

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Interesting lecture.


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I am fairly liberal, but I completely agree with him.  I grew up with parents who were in the Salvation Army.  Our answer was never to bring the poor and destitute over here, but to have missionaries and raise funds for them, do missions trips etc.  curious as well.  

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1 hour ago, jg121783 said:

 

I am wondering if anyone here actually has a legitimate rational argument against anything this guy says in the video.

I don't…but I do love red gum balls.

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Well my issue is he only looks at one side of the equation - how much these people make. However, in many of these countries the cost of living is also low. I am not saying they're not still considered poorer than us, but he tried to make it overly dramatic by neglecting to look at that at all, and pretend it's the same as someone making less than $2 a day here. It's not.


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5 minutes ago, OriZ said:

Well my issue is he only looks at one side of the equation - how much these people make. However, in many of these countries the cost of living is also low. I am not saying they're not still considered poorer than us, but he tried to make it overly dramatic by neglecting to look at that at all, and pretend it's the same as someone making less than $2 a day here. It's not.

That is a reasonable point. I thought about that myself. Still even if his presentation was a little overly dramatic I think his main point about helping people in their own countries rather than trying to bring them here is valid.


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15 minutes ago, jg121783 said:

That is a reasonable point. I thought about that myself. Still even if his presentation was a little overly dramatic I think his main point about helping people in their own countries rather than trying to bring them here is valid.

Indeed.  But I do wonder how we go about that?  Do we change our military to include more of a peacekeeping and goodwill model?  Do we work with the UN?

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9 minutes ago, Nature Boy Flair said:

The Philippines is a poor country but generally most you meet are happy. My point is I am not convinced that having wealth of stuff makes us better off .

 

But all that aside the video is spot on .

I thought about that when watching the video. The average working person makes probably about $200 a month in the Philippines and they find a way to get by. They don't have the living standards our working class has but they are generally happy people who take pride in what little they do have. Some of that has to do with their culture of being family oriented and pooling their resources with their family. One could certainly argue money alone doesn't determine quality of life but the over all point of the video that we can't solve poverty by bringing everyone to the US is still valid.


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7 minutes ago, jg121783 said:

I thought about that when watching the video. The average working person makes probably about $200 a month in the Philippines and they find a way to get by. They don't have the living standards our working class has but they are generally happy people who take pride in what little they do have. Some of that has to do with their culture of being family oriented and pooling their resources with their family. One could certainly argue money alone doesn't determine quality of life but the over all point of the video that we can't solve poverty by bringing everyone to the US is still valid.

You nailed it. It's the strong sense of family. IMHO  that is the key failure of so much of what is wrong with certain segments of America that fail to thrive 

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11 hours ago, Transborderwife said:

Indeed.  But I do wonder how we go about that?  Do we change our military to include more of a peacekeeping and goodwill model?  Do we work with the UN?

It's called the Peace Corps.  Even though JFK was a Democrat (although many of his policies and actions may be construed as conservative with today's definitions), he had it right when he created the Peace Corps, help the people where they are.  Now the PC is not for everyone, but I think there are a lot of young college grads that may learn a thing or two from participating.


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Oh I like this vid! First saw it on facebook and puts things into perspective.

 

My favorite country and my husband's country, Nicaragua, is considered the 2nd poorest nation in the western hemisphere (Haiti is #1). Go down there nowadays and things have gotten much better since the decade that I have been going down there. There is actually an emerging middle class and there are far less corrugated-tin and plastic tarp houses than there was. From my first missions trip in '04 until now I've certainly learned a thing or two about poverty.

    Poverty is so complex with many causes and people often treat the symptoms but not the cause. Take short-term missions: a bunch of people go somewhere for 10 days or so and spend a butt ton of money on construction supplies to build houses or medical stuff. Some go with this super-inflated superman attitude that "I'm gonna save people from their own squalor". I've worked with people like that and quickly try to stop that line of thinking; and that's a whole other issue. I digress. Disclaimer: NOTHING WRONG WITH MISSIONS TRIPS (especially after natural disasters where the need is immediate) so don't misunderstand me because I love going on missions trips; but how often are they creating a temporary fix for an issue that runs deeper? Sure maybe they need a better house, but perhaps people could build up their confidence that they have skills get their own selves out and provide for their family instead of waiting for the next missions team to come. Break the poverty of being (for lack of better words) that  "my gpa lived like this, my parents do, so I guess I'm destined to as well so what's the point if this is how things are" which manifests as material poverty. Building a house or giving them medicine won't fix a mindset like that! You'll fix the symptom but not the real root cause. It's important to find people that host missions teams that treat people holistically. Not just physical needs but social needs, spiritual needs etc. Don't give them money without helping them be a good steward of that money.

 

     From '04-'09 a group of us went to the same area doing a lot of construction work with some food distribution all in the same little community. Over time, I noticed that we actually caused more harm than good - our continual presence created a dependence. Get a house halfways done, leave, come back with another team 7 months later and the house is still sitting there untouched. The men of the community that were happy to help us lay block and tie rebar (perfectly capable and knowledgeable about the work) but simply went home when we would leave and sit on their porches until we came back. There was a family who couldn't "afford school uniforms" or shoes so the team would get them some every year. If you don't have a uniform you can't go to school. Yet they had the best TV and phone money could get in those days. That's when I realized that the way we were approaching poverty wasn't right and wasn't helping. We created a dependence. We cared for all their physical needs while they spent what money they had on wants. Of course, this is one example out of many trips and from my own personal experience.

     Poverty is on so many levels. I have often said that there are people that are so poor that all they have is money. And yet there are people who are material poor yet quite satisfied with what they have...hmm. There's something to that. Someone mentioned the value of family and relationship...things that money can't buy. That's definitely true. 

  Are those in poverty happy or at LEAST satisfied? Sometimes yes it does but many instances I would say not. Ask those Nicaraguans families (sometimes kids with no parents) that literally live in the city dump digging through the trash to find metal to sell so they can eat today if they are happy with life. No. They are not. They watch TV and facebook; they know what life is like for others, even if it's the false sense of US living that TV gives; they want that...words my husband has said before. 

 

I think the best and cheapest way is to train people where they are not only so they can better their own life but also their community and ultimately their country.

 

These are just my opinions, observations, and experiences so don't take it as fact or truth. Working alongside poverty is near and dear to my heart so I had to jump in here :) 

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his whole argument is hot air. his premise is that the us is attempting to use immigration to solve world poverty. and that's simply not factual.

 

(also :secret:Beck has gained notable attention via a colorful presentation on YouTube where he used gumballs to illustrate the infeasibility of immigration as a tool to alleviate world poverty. The conclusion was to help the impoverished where they are, instead of exporting them to richer countries.[7] Figures from the world bank do not match the video, they show 1.85 billion people living on less than $1.90 in 1990 reduced to 881 million in 2012 and 767 million in 2013.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Beck

Edited by smilesammich

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14 hours ago, Nature Boy Flair said:

The Philippines is a poor country but generally most you meet are happy. My point is I am not convinced that having wealth of stuff makes us better off .

 

But all that aside the video is spot on .

Ya I agree. I think you have to ask what ultimate outcome are you looking at. Wealth as an outcome or just a metric or something else? Do you want to look at life expectancy? Happiness? Health?

 

We can shift our resources and go to other countries to try to make them "wealthier", but is that the real point? We could go places to try to make them "healthier", but then most metrics show that the US is not even the heathliest country in the world so are we a good model in the first place for that? Perhaps we can provide the "wealth" to help support change, but others can provide the model. That would require a little more humility on our part I think. We also have to always remember that what "works" for us may not work for other countries. Each place is unique, the geography, their population, their resources. We are where we are now because of our history and our history is only our own. If we want to improve other places we can't just go there and try to impose what works for us on them.

 

I also really want gumballs right now.

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I think happiness depends alot on experiences. Experiences can be family oriented, or it can be a date at a nice restaurant with your wife, or it can be a long vacation. It's been shown that rich people who only use their money to buy another house, another car, expensive jewelry are not happier than people who don't have that kind of money. Usually the excitement over a new material thing wears off in about two months. However, people that spend their money and time on experiences, are alot happier. It's also been shown that while the happiness level only goes down with time when it comes to material things, when it comes to experiences the more time that passes from that experience your happiness level from it actually goes up. Could be the memories, or the feeling you get when you can't wait for the next one. More money can also help you increase your health and life expectancy. So money as a goal is never going to make people happy, but money as a means to a better more fulfilling life with more experiences(especially ones with the family) can definitely make one happier. I think that's why they are more happy in the Philippines(well it's part of it anyway)...plenty of experiences to be had with not alot of money.


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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

05/06/2016: One month late - overnighted form N-400.

06/01/2016: Original Biometrics appointment, had to reschedule due to being away.

07/01/2016: Biometrics Completed.

08/17/2016: Interview scheduled & approved.

09/16/2016: Scheduled oath ceremony.

09/16/2016: THE END - 4 year long process all done!

 

 

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