Health Care in the U.S. [split topic]

[David&Femke 91]

1 hour ago, N-o-l-a said:

 

I think the point should be made that people who come on work visas should not be allowed to be hired for less than someone in the country as a LPR or citizen, that I have no problem with.  I'd even argue that it should be double or triple what would be paid to a current LPR or citizen.

 

However, I don't have a huge problem with some LPRs being paid less than citizens for a couple of reasons - one has to do with education and English fluency.  My husband, for example, gets paid exactly what his coworkers get paid because there is no difference between him and a native born American at the moment.  A recent immigrant from Somalia for another example, might get paid less because their fluency and comfort in negotiating American regulations is less.

 

The issue with raising wages by regulation is two-fold, one is that employers will hire less workers unless they increase the cost of goods and services, and two that with the increasing costs of goods, services, housing etc.  that wage increase is negated.  People always share this article on facebook about how Danish fast food workers get paid a lot more than American ones, but they don't account for the fact that that Danish worker loses a lot more of the pay to tax and that their cost of living is higher.  Right now in America, my husband's wage after tax is exactly what it would be in Denmark, but our cost of living is a lot lower.  We are infinitely better off here with lower wages.  

 i agree that it us a two-fold and that there are merrids on both sides.
i would however like to adress that even though a part of this sytem that you have in denmark and we also to a lesser extend have in the netherlands, could mean higher taxes and cost of living .( although i am not shure if this two-fold is in every way of regulating mutually exclusive) Denmark and the Netherlands because of this have les unimployment, more educated citezens, less people living under the poverty lines or people not resieving sufficient healthcare. and how high a country scales on these points is how we determine withs countrys are considered 1st world countrys ( and i believe for good reason).

And even though you personally migh be better off under the system where you get what you work for, for as long as you do ( because i think your edvantage in amerika compared to denmark will stop, when you get sick, lose your job or turn 65)
There are even now a lot of poeple who are not better off in that system and these poeple happen to be the weakest and most unlucky of sociaty. and the extra 100 or 200 or maybe 500 dollars every month that you can now blow on starbucks coffy and fancy shoes, as we all, including myself love to do, can also make the diferents betwen having a house or living on the steet, eating or not, or getting treatment or not for someone els. and i really hope that i am not wrong in this  and offending you in some great way. but i do believe that from someone from denmark this lower salery, maybe ment you could only have a small house and a bike instead of a car and less fancy food. but it never ment that you could not have a place to live or food to eat at all.

 

Inconlusion i think you could state that in the situation you seem to prefer the rich or well off are better off, but the poor are also much poorer.

 

Edited February 6, 2017 by David&Femke

[N-o-l-a 7,167]

26 minutes ago, David&Femke said:

 i agree that it us a two-fold and that there are merrids on both sides.
i would however like to adress that even though a part of this sytem that you have in denmark and we also to a lesser extend have in the netherlands, could mean higher taxes and cost of living .( although i am not shure if this two-fold is in every way of regulating mutually exclusive) Denmark and the Netherlands because of this have les unimployment, more educated citezens, less people living under the poverty lines or people not resieving sufficient healthcare. and how high a country scales on these points is how we determine withs countrys are considered 1st world countrys ( and i believe for good reason).

And even though you personally migh be better off under the system where you get what you work for, for as long as you do ( because i think your edvantage in amerika compared to denmark will stop, when you get sick, lose your job or turn 65)
There are even now a lot of poeple who are not better off in that system and these poeple happen to be the weakest and most unlucky of sociaty. and the extra 100 or 200 or maybe 500 dollars every month that you can now blow on starbucks coffy and fancy shoes, as we all, including myself love to do, can also make the diferents betwen having a house or living on the steet, eating or not, or getting treatment or not for someone els. and i really hope that i am not wrong in this  and offending you in some great way. but i do believe that from someone from denmark this lower salery, maybe ment you could only have a small house and a bike instead of a car and less fancy food. but it never ment that you could not have a place to live or food to eat at all.

 

Inconlusion i think you could state that in the situation you seem to prefer the rich or well off are better off, but the poor are also much poorer.

 

I disagree.  Here in America we are still considered "poor" by income standards, but we really struggled to find the money to afford food in Denmark (and there were no food banks to fall back on).   My refrigerator rarely had enough food in it and here it is filled with healthy fruits, veggies, and meats that were out of our price range before.   We lived in a very basic apartment on the edge of the city and couldn't afford a car.

 

With the same salary here, we support a household and can afford our grocery bills, utilities, insurance, etc.  It isn't that we now have money to blow, which we don't, it is that we can actually afford to buy a pair of shoes a year if we need to.  Those same exact shoes are cheaper (even half the price) and we have more money to spend.  One of the first things I bought when we moved to America was a pair of Ilse Jacobsen rainboots that must have been 1/3 or a 1/4 the price they sold for in Denmark.  Instead of being our grocery budget for two weeks, they were affordable. There is a big difference between the two lifestyles.

 

We've gone through a short period of unemployment in America and it was really no different compensation wise than cash help in Denmark that my husband also got for two months or something like that.  

 

Retirement money is also provided in America by social security and as a housewife, I'm also provided for in that regard.   Medicare is paid for out of your paycheck.   I appreciate that.  We also have socialized healthcare in this country that many people are on that is funded by taxpayer dollars.  We've been the beneficiaries of this system and now we pay into it.  I sense that you are unfamiliar with this.

 

There is a further issue of scale.  What might be acceptable and seem to work for a nation of 6 million (which isn't even the size of some of our cities), isn't going to work for a large and diverse nation.

 

We are straying off topic here, but I think some greater familiarity with the system you are moving into might be helpful.

 

[David&Femke 91]

12 minutes ago, N-o-l-a said:

I disagree.  Here in America we are still considered "poor" by income standards, but we really struggled to find the money to afford food in Denmark (and there were no food banks to fall back on).   My refrigerator rarely had enough food in it and here it is filled with healthy fruits, veggies, and meats that were out of our price range before.   We lived in a very basic apartment on the edge of the city and couldn't afford a car.

 

With the same salary here, we support a household and can afford our grocery bills, utilities, insurance, etc.  It isn't that we now have money to blow, which we don't, it is that we can actually afford to buy a pair of shoes a year if we need to.  Those same exact shoes are cheaper (even half the price) and we have more money to spend.  One of the first things I bought when we moved to America was a pair of Ilse Jacobsen rainboots that must have been 1/3 or a 1/4 the price they sold for in Denmark.  Instead of being our grocery budget for two weeks, they were affordable. There is a big difference between the two lifestyles.

 

We've gone through a short period of unemployment in America and it was really no different compensation wise than cash help in Denmark that my husband also got for two months or something like that.  

 

Retirement money is also provided in America by social security and as a housewife, I'm also provided for in that regard.   Medicare is paid for out of your paycheck.   I appreciate that.  We also have socialized healthcare in this country that many people are on that is funded by taxpayer dollars.  We've been the beneficiaries of this system and now we pay into it.  I sense that you are unfamiliar with this.

 

There is a further issue of scale.  What might be acceptable and seem to work for a nation of 6 million (which isn't even the size of some of our cities), isn't going to work for a large and diverse nation.

 

We are straying off topic here, but I think some greater familiarity with the system you are moving into might be helpful.

 

i probably could be more familliar still with the system in america, because i know how it will be for me and that is good as a millatary spouse i will get the benifits and healthcare you talk about recieving as well. But for example my inlaws do not recieve the same benefits, when they visitted us from oregon in georgia there insurance would not cover a routine treatment,   and we have to pay in full.

I believe that many evn most poeple in america will also be taken care of in the very basic needs, but i think the amouth of poeple living under poverty lines is  proof that not everyone gets this

 

http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=69

 

as you can see in this index both denmark and the netherlands score better on this than the US does

Edited February 6, 2017 by David&Femke

[N-o-l-a 7,167]

15 minutes ago, David&Femke said:

i probably could be more familliar still with the system in america, because i know how it will be for me and that is good as a millatary spouse i will get the benifits and healthcare you talk about recieving as well. But for example my inlaws do not recieve the same benefits, when they visitted us from oregon in georgia there insurance would not cover a routine treatment,   and we have to pay in full.

I believe that many evn most poeple in america will also be taken care of in the very basic needs, but i think the amouth of poeple living under poverty lines is  proof that not everyone gets this

 

http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=69

 

as you can see in this index both denmark and the netherlands score better on this than the US does

I'm not familiar with their insurance, but many American insurance plans will only cover emergency treatment out of network and/or out of state.  You'll find that your military (I think it is called tri-care) will have limitations as well.  You can think about states as like countries in that regard.  One of the interesting ideas that has been floating around as replacing obamacare and that Trump talked about on the campaign trail is allowing insurance companies to offer plans across state lines, so this issue of state to state treatment might disappear.  

 

I'm not sure what you are trying to prove with the standard of living indexes, if the Netherlands is better, then you should live there.  We all make individual judgments about the country that is right for us.  

Edited February 6, 2017 by N-o-l-a

[David&Femke 91]

12 minutes ago, N-o-l-a said:

I'm not familiar with their insurance, but many American insurance plans will only cover emergency treatment out of network and/or out of state.  You'll find that your military (I think it is called tri-care) will have limitations as well.  You can think about states as like countries in that regard.  One of the interesting ideas that has been floating around as replacing obamacare and that Trump talked about on the campaign trail is allowing insurance companies to offer plans across state lines, so this issue of state to state treatment might disappear.  

ooh i must say I had not heard of that plan, but that sounds really good.

 

( funn side note) also an intresting statistic to look at with raises the question, if you really have more mony in amerika or if you just get the abilety to spent more mony that is not really there. And im provoking a bit here becuase i love discussions. and in realety am a lot less unnuanced then i come across.
But here is the statistic of the national currant account balance , you see that the the netherlands scores high in positive here denmark averige but positive, and america with an increadable distance to all other countrys in the negative ( interesting to read in the sidenote how they messure these statistics)

 

http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?t=0&v=145&l=en

Edited February 6, 2017 by David&Femke

[Ebunoluwa 6,136]

38 minutes ago, David&Femke said:

ooh i must say I had not heard of that plan, but that sounds really good.

 

( funn side note) also an intresting statistic to look at with raises the question, if you really have more mony in amerika or if you just get the abilety to spent more mony that is not really there. And im provoking a bit here becuase i love discussions. and in realety am a lot less unnuanced then i come across.
But here is the statistic of the national currant account balance , you see that the the netherlands scores high in positive here denmark averige but positive, and america with an increadable distance to all other countrys in the negative ( interesting to read in the sidenote how they messure these statistics)

 

http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?t=0&v=145&l=en

Very interesting link, thank you. If we could we would move.

[David&Femke 91]

52 minutes ago, N-o-l-a said:

I'm not sure what you are trying to prove with the standard of living indexes, if the Netherlands is better, then you should live there.  We all make individual judgments about the country that is right for us.  

Honestly I think both the Netherlands and America are great countrys to live in, but that does not mean that in both the Netherlands, America and all other countrys there are things that can be inproved and there can be both good and bad examples we can take from eachother.

 

And as my personal reason to move to amerika, is not because i want to live in America, but to live with the person I love no matter where in the world that is.

To answer your question I am not really trying to prove anything, Im just trying to say things that makes poeple share there opinions, I just really love open discussion and reading how different people think about things, and telling poeple how i think about things, and i really love your reactions because they greatly represent a diferent valit perspective on things. so i hope im not getting to personal.

Edited February 6, 2017 by David&Femke

[Dutchster 1,106]

The only thing about the Netherlands that I miss is my good coverage, affordable healthcare

If there is one thing I hope it's that Trump does something about good, affordable healthcare instead of touching immigration stuff if he talks about America First.

[N-o-l-a 7,167]

10 minutes ago, David&Femke said:

Honestly I think both the Netherlands and America are great countrys to live in, but that does not mean that in both the Netherlands, America and all other countrys there are things that can be inproved and there can be both good and bad examples we can take from eachother.

 

And as my personal reason to move to amerika, is not because i want to live in America, but to live with the person I love no matter where in the world that is.

To answer your question I am not really trying to prove anything, Im just trying to say things that makes poeple share there opinions, I just really love open discussion and reading how different people think about things, and telling poeple how i think about things, and i really love your reactions because they greatly represent a diferent valit perspective on things. so i hope im not getting to personal.

 

Don't worry, it just gets a little tiring sometimes listening to immigrants complaining about America or trying to change it to be like their country.  This isn't a you in particular issue, but something that I've heard a lot of over the years on visajourney.  I sometimes forget that people like you might not have a choice in where you live because of a military spouse or whatever.  We had a choice, well a lot of choices actually, so we picked the country that we both agreed on was best.  For the record, I wanted a different Scandinavian country, but my husband can't abide the Swedes silly Dane that he is.

[FloridaMinsk 88]

7 minutes ago, N-o-l-a said:

 

Don't worry, it just gets a little tiring sometimes listening to immigrants complaining about America or trying to change it to be like their country.  This isn't a you in particular issue, but something that I've heard a lot of over the years on visajourney.  I sometimes forget that people like you might not have a choice in where you live because of a military spouse or whatever.  We had a choice, well a lot of choices actually, so we picked the country that we both agreed on was best.  For the record, I wanted a different Scandinavian country, but my husband can't abide the Swedes silly Dane that he is.

 

I agree on hearing people complain about our healthcare in particular.   I guess if you are used to cradle to death government healthcare our way is a change.    

 

The reality is that if we had a socialist medical system like European nations then the overall advancement of medicine would slow down significantly.   Since we are one of the few places where governments don't set medical costs we end up subsidizing the world in medical/prescription research.   

 

Maybe if some of these other countries would stop with the socialized medicine they could help us all lower costs worldwide while increasing quality.   

 

That being said it's understandable why the immigrants think this way. They have been indoctrinated to think the socialized medicine is better for everyone.    Hopefully over time they realize this is what separates us from the world.   Everyone should have a choice on quality.  

[David&Femke 91]

 

5 minutes ago, FloridaMinsk said:

 

I agree on hearing people complain about our healthcare in particular.   I guess if you are used to cradle to death government healthcare our way is a change.    

 

The reality is that if we had a socialist medical system like European nations then the overall advancement of medicine would slow down significantly.   Since we are one of the few places where governments don't set medical costs we end up subsidizing the world in medical/prescription research.   

 

Maybe if some of these other countries would stop with the socialized medicine they could help us all lower costs worldwide while increasing quality.   

 

That being said it's understandable why the immigrants think this way. They have been indoctrinated to think the socialized medicine is better for everyone.    Hopefully over time they realize this is what separates us from the world.   Everyone should have a choice on quality.  

you are right that is one of the advantages of free market and america is the overmelming leader when it comes to medical reaserch and development.

 

just to be to take the funn position of the oposition i have this article for you though.

besides that asia is catching up in this field, there are broather more abstract fields of sience that are just as advanced in other countrys for instance kwantum mecanica at the large hedron collider in cern, and human genome researge   done by sientists from all over the world but completed by england, that lays the ground work for countless medical developments mostly done in america

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/04/14/genome.reut/

 

 

[Russ&Caro 1,548]

33 minutes ago, FloridaMinsk said:

 

I agree on hearing people complain about our healthcare in particular.   I guess if you are used to cradle to death government healthcare our way is a change.    

 

The reality is that if we had a socialist medical system like European nations then the overall advancement of medicine would slow down significantly.   Since we are one of the few places where governments don't set medical costs we end up subsidizing the world in medical/prescription research.   

 

Maybe if some of these other countries would stop with the socialized medicine they could help us all lower costs worldwide while increasing quality.   

 

That being said it's understandable why the immigrants think this way. They have been indoctrinated to think the socialized medicine is better for everyone.    Hopefully over time they realize this is what separates us from the world.   Everyone should have a choice on quality.  

 

Interesting. So you're against socialism when it provides health care to individuals, but you are for socialism when it helps companies that do heath care R&D.

 

Not surprising. You scratch beneath the surface of most anti-socialists and you'll find that they almost never want to see government assistance end to the so called "free enterprise" system.

 

Waiting for the reply ... "No, no, no, you're misinterpreting what I'm saying... blah, blah, blah."

 

To which I reply... Floridaminsk said it simply: "they (the world) could help us". That's socialism to corporations on a global scale.

[FloridaMinsk 88]

22 minutes ago, Russ&Caro said:

 

Interesting. So you're against socialism when it provides health care to individuals, but you are for socialism when it helps companies that do heath care R&D.

 

Not surprising. You scratch beneath the surface of most anti-socialists and you'll find that they almost never want to see government assistance end to the so called "free enterprise" system.

 

Waiting for the reply ... "No, no, no, you're misinterpreting what I'm saying... blah, blah, blah."

 

To which I reply... Floridaminsk said it simply: "they (the world) could help us". That's socialism to corporations on a global scale.

 

I am all for the free market.   I would prefer a no insurance system.   Pay out of pocket for everything.  Costs would drop and we could decide the quality of care For the cost we are willing to pay.   

 

Healthcare is not a right.   It's a commodity.   We do ourselves all a disservice by treating a commodity as a right.  

[FloridaMinsk 88]

40 minutes ago, David&Femke said:

 

you are right that is one of the advantages of free market and america is the overmelming leader when it comes to medical reaserch and development.

 

just to be to take the funn position of the oposition i have this article for you though.

besides that asia is catching up in this field, there are broather more abstract fields of sience that are just as advanced in other countrys for instance kwantum mecanica at the large hedron collider in cern, and human genome researge   done by sientists from all over the world but completed by england, that lays the ground work for countless medical developments mostly done in america

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/04/14/genome.reut/

 

 

 

Some of the gene research is definelty more advanced outside of the US because I believe there are limitations.   

 

I am torn on these matters because once you go down that road it could lead to bad things.   

[Transborderwife 4,666]

3 minutes ago, FloridaMinsk said:

 

I am all for the free market.   I would prefer a no insurance system.   Pay out of pocket for everything.  Costs would drop and we could decide the quality of care For the cost we are willing to pay.   

 

Healthcare is not a right.   It's a commodity.   We do ourselves all a disservice by treating a commodity as a right.  

Healthcare should be a right.  Nobody deserves to die because they cannot afford care.