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Not a Tailor

Walker wants Boy Scouts ‘protected’ from gay people

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Yes, I posted about the Boy Scouts beginning to seriously discuss overturning their gay leadership ban the other day. This is a separate topic, as it regards the opinions of a presidential candidate regarding whether or not children should be 'protected' from gay people.

“I have had a lifelong commitment to the Scouts and support the previous membership policy because it protected children and advanced Scout values,” Walker told the Independent Journal Review, a popular news site with a young conservative following that published his comments on Tuesday afternoon.

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Yup, Scott Walker thinks that gay people can't have Scout values and that children need to be protected from us. Why is this a problem? Well, many things.

1) Scouting is a leadership/mentorship type of program designed to allow young kids (especially boys in America, though Scouting IS co-ed in other nations) to have positive role models that they can look up to and identify with. Gay Scouts are now allowed in the BSA. When you exclude gay leaders from the program, explicitly, you send the message to gay Scouts that there is no such thing as a positive homosexual role model. The program also encourages a lifelong commitment to Scouting, asking youth to take junior leadership opportunities and asking youth, as they reach age of majority, to assist in maintaining leadership:youth ratios at the correct numbers. Therefore, it goes against Scout values to ban gay leaders and allow gay Scouts.

2) (more importantly) Gay people are not more likely to be abusive towards children by any measure. There is literally no non-biased study or study that followed good selection sampling that has ever been done that has concluded that homosexuals are more likely to sexually offend or abuse against children than heterosexuals. Studies have found, however, that "extensive data available from more than 30 years of research reveal that children raised by gay and lesbian parents have demonstrated resilience with regard to social, psychological, and sexual health despite economic and legal disparities and social stigma".

3) (perhaps most importantly) As many as 60% of Americans supported Same Sex Marriage the month before the supreme court ruling. Can a man who believes that children need to be protected from gay people actually represent, suitably, the needs and desires of that 60% of Americans?

Edited by Not a Tailor

Met in 2010 on a forum for a mutual interest. Became friends.
2011: Realized we needed to evaluate our status as friends when we realized we were talking about raising children together.

2011/2012: Decided we were a couple sometime in, but no possibility of being together due to being same sex couple.

June 26, 2013: DOMA overturned. American married couples ALL have the same federal rights at last! We can be a family!

June-September, 2013: Discussion about being together begins.

November 13, 2013: Meet in person to see if this could work. It's perfect. We plan to elope to Boston, MA.

March 13, 2014 Married!

May 9, 2014: Petition mailed to USCIS

May 12, 2014: NOA1.
October 27, 2014: NOA2. (5 months, 2 weeks, 1 day after NOA1)
October 31, 2014: USCIS ships file to NVC (five days after NOA2) Happy Halloween for us!

November 18, 2014: NVC receives our case (22 days after NOA2)

December 17, 2014: NVC generates case number (50 days after NOA2)

December 19, 2014: Receive AOS bill, DS-261. Submit DS-261 (52 days after NOA2)

December 20, 2014: Pay AOS Fee

January 7, 2015: Receive, pay IV Fee

January 10, 2015: Complete DS-260

January 11, 2015: Send AOS package and Civil Documents
March 23, 2015: Case Complete at NVC. (70 days from when they received docs to CC)

May 6, 2015: Interview at Montréal APPROVED!

May 11, 2015: Visa in hand! One year less one day from NOA1.

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If they are so scared something will happen to their children they should take them out of Boy Scouts. Their children should be protected from pedophiles and rapist, not against a particular group of individuals who have life styles they don't approve of.

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As a complete aside I am friends with a family member of the founders of the movement, and I find the whole fuss risible. I, myself, belonged for many years but quit once I became a member.

The whole movement is dodgy IMO and should be folded.

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As a complete aside I am friends with a family member of the founders of the movement, and I find the whole fuss risible. I, myself, belonged for many years but quit once I became a member.

The whole movement is dodgy IMO and should be folded.

You mean Scouting? Yes, Baden-Powell was at one point a nazi sympathizer. Yes, Baden-Powell was a eugenicist. These things were very common for a man of his socioeconomic class at the time that Scouting was formed.

The movement that has grown out of it, at least in most countries, not so dodgy. I've literally met Scouts from all over the world, especially America (my city was a sister-city to the scouts of a city in Ohio and we hosted back and forth camps quite regularly). For the most part, Scouts are not meant to uphold many of the so-called values that were initially in the movement and the movement has become one largely of friendship, self-discipline (no one can make you get badges, for example, you have to do them yourself) and acceptance.


Met in 2010 on a forum for a mutual interest. Became friends.
2011: Realized we needed to evaluate our status as friends when we realized we were talking about raising children together.

2011/2012: Decided we were a couple sometime in, but no possibility of being together due to being same sex couple.

June 26, 2013: DOMA overturned. American married couples ALL have the same federal rights at last! We can be a family!

June-September, 2013: Discussion about being together begins.

November 13, 2013: Meet in person to see if this could work. It's perfect. We plan to elope to Boston, MA.

March 13, 2014 Married!

May 9, 2014: Petition mailed to USCIS

May 12, 2014: NOA1.
October 27, 2014: NOA2. (5 months, 2 weeks, 1 day after NOA1)
October 31, 2014: USCIS ships file to NVC (five days after NOA2) Happy Halloween for us!

November 18, 2014: NVC receives our case (22 days after NOA2)

December 17, 2014: NVC generates case number (50 days after NOA2)

December 19, 2014: Receive AOS bill, DS-261. Submit DS-261 (52 days after NOA2)

December 20, 2014: Pay AOS Fee

January 7, 2015: Receive, pay IV Fee

January 10, 2015: Complete DS-260

January 11, 2015: Send AOS package and Civil Documents
March 23, 2015: Case Complete at NVC. (70 days from when they received docs to CC)

May 6, 2015: Interview at Montréal APPROVED!

May 11, 2015: Visa in hand! One year less one day from NOA1.

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You mean Scouting? Yes, Baden-Powell was at one point a nazi sympathizer. Yes, Baden-Powell was a eugenicist. These things were very common for a man of his socioeconomic class at the time that Scouting was formed.

The movement that has grown out of it, at least in most countries, not so dodgy. I've literally met Scouts from all over the world, especially America (my city was a sister-city to the scouts of a city in Ohio and we hosted back and forth camps quite regularly). For the most part, Scouts are not meant to uphold many of the so-called values that were initially in the movement and the movement has become one largely of friendship, self-discipline (no one can make you get badges, for example, you have to do them yourself) and acceptance.

I hate uniforms having had to wear one at school for so many years.

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I hate uniforms having had to wear one at school for so many years.

Fair enough. Most of us actually really liked our uniforms and were proud of them--I still have my first uniform, which I stayed small enough to wear all the way through from Scouts to Rovers and through my leadership time, hanging in my closet. Like, I brought three suitcases of stuff to America when I moved and that was one of the items that I felt was important enough to me to keep.

They have changed the uniforms in Canada, at least, to be less uniform. Canadian Scouts have dress uniforms and activity uniforms now. Dress uniforms are more traditional styled and are considered optional by a majority of Troops. Activity uniforms consist of a fleece vest, neckerchief and t-shirt--the t-shirt comes in three colours and most troops either let the kids choose their own individual colour or let the kids vote on the t-shirt colour each year. I know there was discussion, when I left (I haven't led in about five years due to job commitments), of putting Cubs back to the very old traditional green shirts, but I'm not sure what came of that.

But yeah. Most of us liked our uniforms and worked hard to keep them nice.


Met in 2010 on a forum for a mutual interest. Became friends.
2011: Realized we needed to evaluate our status as friends when we realized we were talking about raising children together.

2011/2012: Decided we were a couple sometime in, but no possibility of being together due to being same sex couple.

June 26, 2013: DOMA overturned. American married couples ALL have the same federal rights at last! We can be a family!

June-September, 2013: Discussion about being together begins.

November 13, 2013: Meet in person to see if this could work. It's perfect. We plan to elope to Boston, MA.

March 13, 2014 Married!

May 9, 2014: Petition mailed to USCIS

May 12, 2014: NOA1.
October 27, 2014: NOA2. (5 months, 2 weeks, 1 day after NOA1)
October 31, 2014: USCIS ships file to NVC (five days after NOA2) Happy Halloween for us!

November 18, 2014: NVC receives our case (22 days after NOA2)

December 17, 2014: NVC generates case number (50 days after NOA2)

December 19, 2014: Receive AOS bill, DS-261. Submit DS-261 (52 days after NOA2)

December 20, 2014: Pay AOS Fee

January 7, 2015: Receive, pay IV Fee

January 10, 2015: Complete DS-260

January 11, 2015: Send AOS package and Civil Documents
March 23, 2015: Case Complete at NVC. (70 days from when they received docs to CC)

May 6, 2015: Interview at Montréal APPROVED!

May 11, 2015: Visa in hand! One year less one day from NOA1.

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The badges were cool...

I was one of those kids who didn't give a about badges for the most part. I learned all the skills for the badges and then was busy teaching those skills to other kids rather than going for formal testing of those skills, so I think I only earned like ten badges, officially. The experience was way more important.


Met in 2010 on a forum for a mutual interest. Became friends.
2011: Realized we needed to evaluate our status as friends when we realized we were talking about raising children together.

2011/2012: Decided we were a couple sometime in, but no possibility of being together due to being same sex couple.

June 26, 2013: DOMA overturned. American married couples ALL have the same federal rights at last! We can be a family!

June-September, 2013: Discussion about being together begins.

November 13, 2013: Meet in person to see if this could work. It's perfect. We plan to elope to Boston, MA.

March 13, 2014 Married!

May 9, 2014: Petition mailed to USCIS

May 12, 2014: NOA1.
October 27, 2014: NOA2. (5 months, 2 weeks, 1 day after NOA1)
October 31, 2014: USCIS ships file to NVC (five days after NOA2) Happy Halloween for us!

November 18, 2014: NVC receives our case (22 days after NOA2)

December 17, 2014: NVC generates case number (50 days after NOA2)

December 19, 2014: Receive AOS bill, DS-261. Submit DS-261 (52 days after NOA2)

December 20, 2014: Pay AOS Fee

January 7, 2015: Receive, pay IV Fee

January 10, 2015: Complete DS-260

January 11, 2015: Send AOS package and Civil Documents
March 23, 2015: Case Complete at NVC. (70 days from when they received docs to CC)

May 6, 2015: Interview at Montréal APPROVED!

May 11, 2015: Visa in hand! One year less one day from NOA1.

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I was one of those kids who didn't give a ###### about badges for the most part. I learned all the skills for the badges and then was busy teaching those skills to other kids rather than going for formal testing of those skills, so I think I only earned like ten badges, officially. The experience was way more important.

So serious!! I only did it for the badges;)

The leader (can't remember the title, not Brown Owl), had a fit when I quit as I was the star of the group and expected to become a Queen's whatever...

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So serious!! I only did it for the badges;)

The leader (can't remember the title, not Brown Owl), had a fit when I quit as I was the star of the group and expected to become a Queen's whatever...

So Jacque was a Boy Scout?? The plot thickens!! Spooky!! :lol:

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They have changed the uniforms [...] to be less uniform.

This potentially prompts some wordplay and philosophizing. At what point does a uniform become so less-uniform that it's no longer (a) uniform?


06-04-2007 = TSC stamps postal return-receipt for I-129f.

06-11-2007 = NOA1 date (unknown to me).

07-20-2007 = Phoned Immigration Officer; got WAC#; where's NOA1?

09-25-2007 = Touch (first-ever).

09-28-2007 = NOA1, 23 days after their 45-day promise to send it (grrrr).

10-20 & 11-14-2007 = Phoned ImmOffs; "still pending."

12-11-2007 = 180 days; file is "between workstations, may be early Jan."; touches 12/11 & 12/12.

12-18-2007 = Call; file is with Division 9 ofcr. (bckgrnd check); e-prompt to shake it; touch.

12-19-2007 = NOA2 by e-mail & web, dated 12-18-07 (187 days; 201 per VJ); in mail 12/24/07.

01-09-2008 = File from USCIS to NVC, 1-4-08; NVC creates file, 1/15/08; to consulate 1/16/08.

01-23-2008 = Consulate gets file; outdated Packet 4 mailed to fiancee 1/27/08; rec'd 3/3/08.

04-29-2008 = Fiancee's 4-min. consular interview, 8:30 a.m.; much evidence brought but not allowed to be presented (consul: "More proof! Second interview! Bring your fiance!").

05-05-2008 = Infuriating $12 call to non-English-speaking consulate appointment-setter.

05-06-2008 = Better $12 call to English-speaker; "joint" interview date 6/30/08 (my selection).

06-30-2008 = Stokes Interrogations w/Ecuadorian (not USC); "wait 2 weeks; we'll mail her."

07-2008 = Daily calls to DOS: "currently processing"; 8/05 = Phoned consulate, got Section Chief; wrote him.

08-07-08 = E-mail from consulate, promising to issue visa "as soon as we get her passport" (on 8/12, per DHL).

08-27-08 = Phoned consulate (they "couldn't find" our file); visa DHL'd 8/28; in hand 9/1; through POE on 10/9 with NO hassles(!).

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2) (more importantly) Gay people are not more likely to be abusive towards children by any measure. There is literally no non-biased study or study that followed good selection sampling that has ever been done that has concluded that homosexuals are more likely to sexually offend or abuse against children than heterosexuals. Studies have found, however, that "extensive data available from more than 30 years of research reveal that children raised by gay and lesbian parents have demonstrated resilience with regard to social, psychological, and sexual health despite economic and legal disparities and social stigma".

So assuming the rates of sexual abuse are the same, if I was going to rebut this I would have to ask: would you want an adult heterosexual male taking a group of young female teens/pre-teens to the mountains for the weekend?


I don't believe it.. Prove it to me and I still won't believe it. -Ford Prefect

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So assuming the rates of sexual abuse are the same, if I was going to rebut this I would have to ask: would you want an adult heterosexual male taking a group of young female teens/pre-teens to the mountains for the weekend?

All of my Scout leaders were male until I was a fourth year (and then we broke our female leader tobogganing, oops). We brought along a female parent on overnights to satisfy the requirements of the Bylaws (if you had female youth, there had to be an adult female present on overnights). But I was regularly taken into the hills and even interprovincially by a group of adult heterosexual (I assume they were as they were married to ladies) males as a teen/pre-teen girl. When we went on a 14 day excursion to PEI, we did not, in fact, have our own female--the token female leader belonged to another troop we were traveling with and was on another bus. The idea of men mentoring young women does not, in fact, bother me in the slightest. Not one of the girls in my troop (we had one of the largest proportions of female Scouts for miles and miles as we were the first ones in the region to allow girls, back when it was on a troop-by-troop basis--girls had been allowed in our Beavers, Cubs, Scouts, Venturers and Rovers since literally the day girls were permitted in the troops on a case-by-case basis) was ever made to feel harassed by a leader, male or female. I never met a girl in any group who had felt harassed (at least on the basis of attraction to the girl--obviously some leaders sucked and held the girls to a different standard of ability, which was something that we fought back against a lot and other leaders just sucked and treated kids like ) by a male leader.

And trust me, teenage and pre-teen girls gossip about their leaders. A lot.

My rebuttal question to you is this: Do you trust stepfathers to be home alone with their teen/preteen stepdaughters overnight?


Met in 2010 on a forum for a mutual interest. Became friends.
2011: Realized we needed to evaluate our status as friends when we realized we were talking about raising children together.

2011/2012: Decided we were a couple sometime in, but no possibility of being together due to being same sex couple.

June 26, 2013: DOMA overturned. American married couples ALL have the same federal rights at last! We can be a family!

June-September, 2013: Discussion about being together begins.

November 13, 2013: Meet in person to see if this could work. It's perfect. We plan to elope to Boston, MA.

March 13, 2014 Married!

May 9, 2014: Petition mailed to USCIS

May 12, 2014: NOA1.
October 27, 2014: NOA2. (5 months, 2 weeks, 1 day after NOA1)
October 31, 2014: USCIS ships file to NVC (five days after NOA2) Happy Halloween for us!

November 18, 2014: NVC receives our case (22 days after NOA2)

December 17, 2014: NVC generates case number (50 days after NOA2)

December 19, 2014: Receive AOS bill, DS-261. Submit DS-261 (52 days after NOA2)

December 20, 2014: Pay AOS Fee

January 7, 2015: Receive, pay IV Fee

January 10, 2015: Complete DS-260

January 11, 2015: Send AOS package and Civil Documents
March 23, 2015: Case Complete at NVC. (70 days from when they received docs to CC)

May 6, 2015: Interview at Montréal APPROVED!

May 11, 2015: Visa in hand! One year less one day from NOA1.

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Your question would show tremendous shortsightedness and unfamiliarity of how the Scouts operate.

Other pertinent questions would be: Is this person qualified for this task? What is the history of this person with the group he/she will be chaperoning during the weekend? Will there be other chaperons accompanying the group? What is the location of the outing? What are the resources at the site? How will the group be transported to/fro their departure point?

So assuming the rates of sexual abuse are the same, if I was going to rebut this I would have to ask: would you want an adult heterosexual male taking a group of young female teens/pre-teens to the mountains for the weekend?


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