Is it legal to get married to my foreign first cousin in IL with the marriage license from TN, meaning the officiant is from IL?

[divemaster19 17]

I would probably prepare for the interview since they might think you are marrying her just to bring her to the US and get her citizenship.

Or maybe this is just me thinking from the perspective of my culture and the way I was raised and it will be a non issue at the interview.

[Villanelle 4,121]

well once again- you have done research yourself and found the 3 points:

1) Laws of the place where the marriage took place;
(2) Laws of the State of proposed residence in the United States; and
(3) Facts that vary in each individual case.

Part of my other post was deleted as it was included in quoted text and Im sorry for that so Ill go back over it-

You already seem to know the answers from what you wrote on page 1.

RE

#1 Marriage is taking place in a valid location so CHECK

#2 and #3 / For number 2 there is no law stating you and your spouse can not marry elsewhere and reside in TX. TX will and does acknowledge your marriage as valid. Your problem is the penal code that says a big NO NO to sexual relations. However as referenced here- http://www.justanswer.com/criminal-law/76bti-married-first-cousin-new-mexico-know-marriage.html

this is generally a penal code that is on the books but is not enforced. Reason 1- no one makes a big announcement generally about being related. Reason 2- a jury would be hard pressed to punish 2 consenting Married adults for having marital relations. The underlying law was designed to prevent bigamy and cutting the BS religious cult type activity. From my understanding no one has been prosecuted under this. (I did a quick search and could not find anyone - certainly not average folks).

So anyway, as the attny interpretation stated that YOU posted- the immigration law is loosely worded saying "marriage does not violate laws" technically your marriage does not violate laws as you can be married and not have sexual relations. However you can see from the experiences posted SOME were denied as it is up to the CO how they interpret this.

This directly ties into the number 3- FACTS VARY/specific case...

So there is no specific answer. Technically YES the law is on your side- however the HUGE problem you face is the discretion will lie with the CO. They can easily say no and then... well Im guessing you dont know because thats why you are here- so heres a crash course in basic policy=

The attny overview you referenced referred to BIA cases and the what not. Thats good. That means policy is on your side. Its not great because it means negative decisions had been made and someone somewhere had to fight all the way to the BIA for a clearer descision. That does not automatically mean that every low level CO knows about the BIA decision and will abide by it.

IF you are denied by a CO: Well with any other USCIS form if you are denied, basically if you have an A# and you submit a form and are denied the denial comes with an explanation on how to appeal it. When you apply for a visa (which is what you are doing) you dont have an A# (yet) so there is no built in appeal form. It stinks. There is no "easy way" to appeal. Sure its possible, but its a long drawn out process. The easiest way is to act while your papers are still at the foreign embassy. Get your congresspeople involved. Get lawyers involved. Try to get them to change their mind while the file is there. I say "get" because there is no official standard to force them to act.

Otherwise your file will get sent back to USCIS. This takes time. You then have to submit requests for copies of your file. Wait for the official 'denial'/ This stuff moves at a snails pace. Youre going to want a lawyer. Esp if youre going to attempt to go to the BIA about it being unfairly rejected under the code above. Youd be looking at a lot of money in lawyers fees plus- no joking but at least 2-3 years in court to get a decision before going back to the consulate for processing again.

Very few people would go through all of that just to make a point. Unless you have something significant holding you to TX for the next several years- most people would move upon being denied then go through all that/

So how to NOT be denied. Be prepared. An attny can help you with that. Now of course no CO is going to like being confronted with- here is the law/here is how to do your job. So its going to have to be handled tactfully. If in the interview it begins to go that route, having prepared materials to present can make the difference. Bringing with you print outs of the BIA decisions referencing those cases and ONLY presenting them if the CO states I have to deny you because blah blah and politely stating I was advised that might come up and was told to present this- a recent decision showing the BIA ruled the following and then shutting your mouth.

[thetruefinale 0]

I think what you need to check is if a marriage license from TN is valid for a ceremony performed in IL. I don't think it is. I think the licenses are state specific.

Yup, that was one of the first things I checked. TN marriage licenses can be executed outside of state. Each state has its own laws concerning that. Now, that isn't the issue for me. My issue is that, as a resident of Texas, do they care that I went to TN for, what they call, "evasive marriage"? Meaning, I go out of state purely for the reason to marry because it is would be illegal in TX. According to Wikipedia, it is fine, but I haven't found the TX code or law that states I can do that (I am not a lawyer, so this is difficult for me to do). This is the first item of business I am trying to figure out.

Now, let's say it is legal and valid in TX for me to do that. What will immigration say? They seem to care about the laws of where I reside as a petitioner. It seems sometimes it is okay in TX, and sometimes it isn't, depending on the officer. The reason for that discrepancy would be because cousin marriages are not allowed in TX. However, cousin marriages out of state are valid (though still need to figure out if "evasive marriages" are okay). To what will the immigration officer give more consideration? If the former, I need to move. If the latter, then I should be okay.

[thetruefinale 0]

I would probably prepare for the interview since they might think you are marrying her just to bring her to the US and get her citizenship.

Or maybe this is just me thinking from the perspective of my culture and the way I was raised and it will be a non issue at the interview.

I mean I do realize that. I will of course prepare myself for that, and I will have evidence to substantiate a legitimate relationship. I obviously want to bring her over to live with her, and I just have to prove that to the best of my ability.

[thetruefinale 0]

well once again- you have done research yourself and found the 3 points:

1) Laws of the place where the marriage took place;

(2) Laws of the State of proposed residence in the United States; and

(3) Facts that vary in each individual case.

Part of my other post was deleted as it was included in quoted text and Im sorry for that so Ill go back over it-

You already seem to know the answers from what you wrote on page 1.

RE

#1 Marriage is taking place in a valid location so CHECK

#2 and #3 / For number 2 there is no law stating you and your spouse can not marry elsewhere and reside in TX. TX will and does acknowledge your marriage as valid. Your problem is the penal code that says a big NO NO to sexual relations. However as referenced here- http://www.justanswer.com/criminal-law/76bti-married-first-cousin-new-mexico-know-marriage.html

this is generally a penal code that is on the books but is not enforced. Reason 1- no one makes a big announcement generally about being related. Reason 2- a jury would be hard pressed to punish 2 consenting Married adults for having marital relations. The underlying law was designed to prevent bigamy and cutting the BS religious cult type activity. From my understanding no one has been prosecuted under this. (I did a quick search and could not find anyone - certainly not average folks).

So anyway, as the attny interpretation stated that YOU posted- the immigration law is loosely worded saying "marriage does not violate laws" technically your marriage does not violate laws as you can be married and not have sexual relations. However you can see from the experiences posted SOME were denied as it is up to the CO how they interpret this.

This directly ties into the number 3- FACTS VARY/specific case...

So there is no specific answer. Technically YES the law is on your side- however the HUGE problem you face is the discretion will lie with the CO. They can easily say no and then... well Im guessing you dont know because thats why you are here- so heres a crash course in basic policy=

The attny overview you referenced referred to BIA cases and the what not. Thats good. That means policy is on your side. Its not great because it means negative decisions had been made and someone somewhere had to fight all the way to the BIA for a clearer descision. That does not automatically mean that every low level CO knows about the BIA decision and will abide by it.

IF you are denied by a CO: Well with any other USCIS form if you are denied, basically if you have an A# and you submit a form and are denied the denial comes with an explanation on how to appeal it. When you apply for a visa (which is what you are doing) you dont have an A# (yet) so there is no built in appeal form. It stinks. There is no "easy way" to appeal. Sure its possible, but its a long drawn out process. The easiest way is to act while your papers are still at the foreign embassy. Get your congresspeople involved. Get lawyers involved. Try to get them to change their mind while the file is there. I say "get" because there is no official standard to force them to act.

Otherwise your file will get sent back to USCIS. This takes time. You then have to submit requests for copies of your file. Wait for the official 'denial'/ This stuff moves at a snails pace. Youre going to want a lawyer. Esp if youre going to attempt to go to the BIA about it being unfairly rejected under the code above. Youd be looking at a lot of money in lawyers fees plus- no joking but at least 2-3 years in court to get a decision before going back to the consulate for processing again.

Very few people would go through all of that just to make a point. Unless you have something significant holding you to TX for the next several years- most people would move upon being denied then go through all that/

So how to NOT be denied. Be prepared. An attny can help you with that. Now of course no CO is going to like being confronted with- here is the law/here is how to do your job. So its going to have to be handled tactfully. If in the interview it begins to go that route, having prepared materials to present can make the difference. Bringing with you print outs of the BIA decisions referencing those cases and ONLY presenting them if the CO states I have to deny you because blah blah and politely stating I was advised that might come up and was told to present this- a recent decision showing the BIA ruled the following and then shutting your mouth.

Thank you for your information! I will probably end up moving if that is the case, and I will definitely be getting legal consultation soon.

However, one thing (among others) I am concerned with is the first point, the place of marriage. If I get the license from TN and have the ceremony in IL (which is fine from TN's standpoint), does immigration care about the fact the ceremony was in IL, where first cousin marriages are illegal? Where is my place of marriage? It will be registered in TN, but the ceremony took place in IL. If that is indeed a problem, I could just have the ceremony in TN, and the celebration in IL...hopefully that is something immigration wouldn't care about. Or am I just thinking too much about this, and only the state of marriage registration is the item of interest to immigration?

[Villanelle 4,121]

Thank you for your information! I will probably end up moving if that is the case, and I will definitely be getting legal consultation soon.

However, one thing (among others) I am concerned with is the first point, the place of marriage. If I get the license from TN and have the ceremony in IL (which is fine from TN's standpoint), does immigration care about the fact the ceremony was in IL, where first cousin marriages are illegal? Where is my place of marriage? It will be registered in TN, but the ceremony took place in IL. If that is indeed a problem, I could just have the ceremony in TN, and the celebration in IL...hopefully that is something immigration wouldn't care about. Or am I just thinking too much about this, and only the state of marriage registration is the item of interest to immigration?

You know this I read and re-read several times in your initial postings and each and every time it confused the heck out of me! So instead of making this more complex Im going to take away everything and make it simpler and you fill in the blanks:

Marriage license- means nothing. Its a piece of paper authorizing you to get married. You turn this in to USCIS they send it back to you. Worthless crud no one anywhere ever wants to see again. The only person that ever ever needs this is the person who is going to marry you. They need this in order to marry you lol.

Marriage certificate. You get this by turning in your marriage license to the county clerk once it has been signed. Now procedures vary place to place. Usually the signed license must be turned in by the person who signed off it and did the wedding - because you know dont want any forgeries going on-. Sometimes the clerk can take weeks to give you a certified marriage certificate, sometimes days, sometimes hours. THIS is the document you want for USCIS. This is the holy grail doc.

Often people turn in the license rather then the certificate and it causes an RFE (request for evidence) Sometimes new brides go to the DMV with the marriage license thinking its the certificate and try to change their name and leave blushing because its the wrong paper. Some couples even have (dont laugh) their marriage license framed in their home instead of the certificate because they look just as fancy and the couple doesnt realize I guess its not the same document.

From what you seem to be saying one state is going to give you a license and allow you to perform you physical ceremony in another location correct?> Sooooo okay...

Your certificate will be from (Blank-insert state/county) thats technically where you would fill out marriage location on forms. Thats where your marriage is (the location {county and state of where your marriage is registered} not where you physically said I do )

[aaron2020 11,651]

Yup, that was one of the first things I checked. TN marriage licenses can be executed outside of state. Each state has its own laws concerning that. Now, that isn't the issue for me. My issue is that, as a resident of Texas, do they care that I went to TN for, what they call, "evasive marriage"? Meaning, I go out of state purely for the reason to marry because it is would be illegal in TX. According to Wikipedia, it is fine, but I haven't found the TX code or law that states I can do that (I am not a lawyer, so this is difficult for me to do). This is the first item of business I am trying to figure out.

Now, let's say it is legal and valid in TX for me to do that. What will immigration say? They seem to care about the laws of where I reside as a petitioner. It seems sometimes it is okay in TX, and sometimes it isn't, depending on the officer. The reason for that discrepancy would be because cousin marriages are not allowed in TX. However, cousin marriages out of state are valid (though still need to figure out if "evasive marriages" are okay). To what will the immigration officer give more consideration? If the former, I need to move. If the latter, then I should be okay.

With a TN license that allows you to marry out of state, you still must also comply with the laws of the state where you are planning to have the ceremony.

1st cousin marriages are illegal in IL with the exceptions that both parties are over 50 or infertile. You can not get around this law with a marriage license from another state. If you tried to use the TN license in a state that does not allow it (Texas for example), then the marriage is not valid because it's not allowed. Do you really think that Texas would allow you to marry there where cousin marriages are ban with a TN marriage certificate? Wouldn't that make Texas laws worthless when a cousin marriage occurs there with an out-of-state TN marriage license?

You must get marry in a state that allows it. Look at the language of what you quoted, "laws of the place where the marriage takes place." You are not getting marry in TN. You would be getting marry in IL which is the place where the marriage will take place and the laws of IL will apply.

Why not just get a court house marriage in a state that allows it and then have a celebration in IL?

Edited May 24, 2015 by aaron2020

[thetruefinale 0]

You know this I read and re-read several times in your initial postings and each and every time it confused the heck out of me! So instead of making this more complex Im going to take away everything and make it simpler and you fill in the blanks:

Marriage license- means nothing. Its a piece of paper authorizing you to get married. You turn this in to USCIS they send it back to you. Worthless crud no one anywhere ever wants to see again. The only person that ever ever needs this is the person who is going to marry you. They need this in order to marry you lol.

Marriage certificate. You get this by turning in your marriage license to the county clerk once it has been signed. Now procedures vary place to place. Usually the signed license must be turned in by the person who signed off it and did the wedding - because you know dont want any forgeries going on-. Sometimes the clerk can take weeks to give you a certified marriage certificate, sometimes days, sometimes hours. THIS is the document you want for USCIS. This is the holy grail doc.

Often people turn in the license rather then the certificate and it causes an RFE (request for evidence) Sometimes new brides go to the DMV with the marriage license thinking its the certificate and try to change their name and leave blushing because its the wrong paper. Some couples even have (dont laugh) their marriage license framed in their home instead of the certificate because they look just as fancy and the couple doesnt realize I guess its not the same document.

From what you seem to be saying one state is going to give you a license and allow you to perform you physical ceremony in another location correct?> Sooooo okay...

Your certificate will be from (Blank-insert state/county) thats technically where you would fill out marriage location on forms. Thats where your marriage is (the location {county and state of where your marriage is registered} not where you physically said I do )

Ohh, okay. So, my marriage license will be from TN. It gets signed in IL, then sent to the county clerk's office in TN. I get my marriage certificate. I am happy with that, and immigration is happy with that. Immigration sees TN as my place of marriage. They won't care at all that IL is where the ceremony was, only that the registration is in TN, where cousin marriages are legal?

With a TN license that allows you to marry out of state, you still must also comply with the laws of the state where you are planning to have the ceremony.

1st cousin marriages are illegal in IL with the exceptions that both parties are over 50 or infertile. You can not get around this law with a marriage license from another state. If you tried to use the TN license in a state that does not allow it (Texas for example), then the marriage is not valid because it's not allowed. Do you really think that Texas would allow you to marry there where cousin marriages are ban with a TN marriage certificate? Wouldn't that make Texas laws worthless when a cousin marriage occurs there with an out-of-state TN marriage license?

You must get marry in a state that allows it. Look at the language of what you quoted, "laws of the place where the marriage takes place." You are not getting marry in TN. You would be getting marry in IL which is the place where the marriage will take place and the laws of IL will apply.

Why not just get a court house marriage in a state that allows it and then have a celebration in IL?

You know, this is also an option I am considering. I might just get married in TN and then have the celebration in IL. I am heavily leaning towards that option.

[aaron2020 11,651]

Your certificate will be from (Blank-insert state/county) thats technically where you would fill out marriage location on forms. Thats where your marriage is (the location {county and state of where your marriage is registered} not where you physically said I do )

In Texas, 1st cousin marriages are illegal.

1st cousins in Texas gets TN marriage license to get marry.

They return to Texas to marry with the TN license.

Texas laws in Texas is then worthless?

It's not where the marriage is registered. Read carefully. It states the marriage must be legal under "the laws where the marriage takes place." Where is the marriage taking place?

[Villanelle 4,121]

They won't care at all that IL is where the ceremony was, only that the registration is in TN, where cousin marriages are legal?

Um yes and no. Your marriage certificate will be from TN

HOWEVER like Aaron said if it is scrutinized and it probably will be and it is discovered by USCIS that the marriage took place (the ceremony) in a location where it was illegal - then it wont be valid for immigration purposes.

I attempted to look online to see if there is anything about how they register out of state marriages in TN, you know anything specifically stating that it will say so on your certificate and I cant find anything either way (saying it says something on the certificate or it just looks like a plain old TN certificate) Now you can look into it further but honestly WHY?? A marriage in IL is no good for you. A celebration sure. But to have your officiant perform over you saying I do there is immigration suicide.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Damara

[thetruefinale 0]

In Texas, 1st cousin marriages are illegal.

1st cousins in Texas gets TN marriage license to get marry.

They return to Texas to marry with the TN license.

Texas laws in Texas is then worthless?

It's not where the marriage is registered. Read carefully. It states the marriage must be legal under "the laws where the marriage takes place." Where is the marriage taking place?

I've basically decided to just have the ceremony in TN and celebration in IL. Now, the question about this is, since it's considered an evasive marriage, is this allowed under Texas Family Code? Hopefully someone knows the answer to that question.

[thetruefinale 0]

Thanks for helping me figure out some of this mess, everyone. I initially didn't think I would get many answers, but I actually did! I really do appreciate everyone's help!

[Villanelle 4,121]

Once more

sec 6.201 (fam) does not void the marriage because you are cousins

(FYI sec 2-004 asks if you are cousins and sec 2-009 would deny them giving you a license but 6.201 does not void your marriage)

However

penal 25.02 makes it FELONY to engage in sexual intercourse

(immigration aspect has been discussed above) Do with the information what you wish in choosing where to reside.

[aaron2020 11,651]

Once more

sec 6.201 (fam) does not void the marriage because you are cousins

(FYI sec 2-004 asks if you are cousins and sec 2-009 would deny them giving you a license but 6.201 does not void your marriage)

However

penal 25.02 makes it FELONY to engage in sexual intercourse

(immigration aspect has been discussed above) Do with the information what you wish in choosing where to reside.

Not all laws on the book are enforced.

For example, SCOTUS ruled that laws against interracial marriages were unconstitutional in 1967. Alabama still had it on the books until 2000. That law was not enforceable for 33 years. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2015/02/09/alabama-was-a-final-holdout-on-desegregation-and-interracial-marriage-it-could-happen-again-on-gay-marriage/

Just because there is a Texas law against 1st cousins having sex, it does not mean that Texas will go after 1st cousins having sex when they are legally married. I would be shocked if anyone can find a case where Texas came after legally married 1st cousins.

[Ash.1101 1,755]

Tbqh, I'm from Texas and maybe it's the southern mentality but I can't wrap my mind around wanting to marry your first cousin unless you met them and then surprise years down the road you find out that you're related.


Either way, I'd seek a lawyers advice. We could tell you what we think and what we can find online, but... the amount of detail you're taking to try to avoid red flags and walls is extreme and I really think you should seek a lawyer, at the very least they could find the best legal route for all of these law dodging that you're trying to do.

With that said, my marriage certificate from my previous marriage, which SHOULD look like your future one, but it actually has something that would red flag you forever if you plan on fudging things.

It shows the groom and bride's residence, current address per se. Then it shows the liscense info, AKA what you would apply for in TN. Shows the liscense number the signature of the issuer, and then the date issued and where the lisense was issued.

It shows the location (city AND county) you got married, which would NOT be TN. It also states the officiants title and his mailing address. Now if you're going to ask them to lie and write on your CERTIFICATE, the thing you're going to show the USCISC that you got married in TN you should probably just stop before it gets dirty. You would have to have your Officiant lie on official documents because he legally has to put the city and the county you got married in.

If it looks anything like mine, and I'm sure they are standard, it should show that you got your Marriage Liscense in TN, but that you married with the address, county, and mailing info for the officiant in IL, and it should show that your current residence is in TX.


Everything you're trying to cover up or not have to talk about will be on a paper that is very binding and very very important, even more so to immigrations.

Edited May 24, 2015 by ash1101