Lawmakers won't be silenced over Obama administration's proposed ammo ban

[lostinblue 1,989]

making some up tonight ...

[Sousuke 1,214]

Not exactly. I wanted to check myself:

The steel penetrator is what distinguishes this round. "Ball" refers to the common type of powder used. The M16 was designed to function properly with "ball" or spherical powder.

The definition of armor piercing is as follows:

Armor piercing ammunition

18 U.S.C., § 921(a)(17)(B)

• A projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

• A full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

Apparently M855 meets neither due to the weight of lead in the projectile so I'm not sure whats up with the ATF.

Also I was always taught ball ammo equals FMJ.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Also I was always taught ball ammo equals FMJ.

Very common mistake.

http://www.gd-ots.com/ballpowder_military.html

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

There also seems to be a another school of thought: The term "ball" is historical, referring to when the projectiles were indeed round, where any standard live round, as opposed to blank, incendiary, or tracer, for example, the projectile would be referred to as "ball".

Edited March 2, 2015 by I AM NOT THAT GUY

[Ban Hammer 12,836]

When referring to ammo, "ball" is synonymous for "standard." The term comes from the time of the transition from smooth-bore muskets to rifle muskets. Originally, the rifled muskets (i.e., rifles) shot the same round lead balls that smooth-bore muskets had been using for over a century. But it didn't take too long for specialized bullets to be developed for the rifle muskets to take advantage of their increased accuracy. Though the Minie ball is among the most famous of these early improved bullets due to its wide use in the American Civil War, there were many other designs used before and since. Anyway, as these new bullet designs came into use, the word "ball" was used to refer to "standard" ammo (meaning round lead balls) vs. the new conical bullets. The term has stuck, even though the development of jacketed bullets. Today, "ball" generally means FMJ bullets, as these are the "default" or "standard" bullets used by the military. -Troy

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/150142_Definition_of_the_term_andapos_ball_ammoandapos___.html

as for the type of powder leading to the definition of ball ammo, i've never heard that one.

Edited March 2, 2015 by charles!

[lostinblue 1,989]

http://www.peakprosperity.com/wsidblog/81183/understanding-ammunition Thoughts on Ammunition:

Ammunition (and caliber) is a hotly contested issue. The 5.56mm has been lauded as inefficient and underpowered, while the Afghans nicknamed the Soviet 5.45 x 39mm “The Poison Bullet” due to the smallest injuries resulting in death.

There’s less than 0.11mm difference between them, so why the disparity? Truthfully, it doesn’t exist.

Design has a lot to do with it – the Russians designed the 5.45 with a hollow cavity in the rear of the bullet, which causes its lighter rear end to ‘turn’ immediately upon impact, sending it on a wildly erratic path once it enters tissue, a process called “keyholing”. The 5.56mm used by American forces, by comparison, is a simple, jacketed ball round, not meant to maim or cause excessive wounding. Bullet design has a lot to do with what the bullet is good at, as well as what it is not.

Ball ammunition, for example, is notorious (in both handguns and rifles) for passing through the intended target (or drywall, OSB, vehicles, and so forth) and striking ‘unintended’ targets. For this reason, Hollow Point ammunition is used by most professionals and citizens. This is because upon striking a target, hollow points rapidly expand in diameter, which creates drag and slows the projectile, making it both larger and more likely to strike vital targets, while decreasing the likelihood that it will pass through the target.

Another important note to make is that Hollow Points, though they sound terrible and nefarious, are actually far safer to use for defense than is ball (which sounds pretty unimpressive) because of this reason. Hollow Points are *not* “Armor Piercing” rounds, and this means they are not regulated in any capacity (yet) though some are restricted to Military and L.E. purchases.

Armor Piercing rounds, while we’re on the subject, have a misnomer.

The body armor worn by police officers (Commonly referred to as IIIA, soft armor, or Kevlar) is penetrable by nearly every single production rifle round that’s above .22 caliber. For this reason, all rifle rounds could be considered “armor piercing”, unless we are discussing military-grade armor (Commonly known as IVA, SAPI or Ceramic Plate armor), which is made specifically to stop military ammunition. Therefore, the only “armor piercing” ammunition that’s made is made for rifles, and it only applies to military grade SAPI plates.

This is an important academic point as the political rhetoric continues to boil over – as a ban on “armor piercing” ammunition could easily be taken to mean “all rifle calibers other than .22”.

So, when you select ammunition for hunting or personal defense, it’s important to learn:

1. The ballistics of the cartridge you’ve selected (how ‘high’ or ‘low’ will the bullet be at a given distance?)

2. How prone will it be to passing through walls, tissue, or vehicles? (Very important for safety and liability reasons – it’s incumbent on you to know where every round you fire goes!)

3. Is the type of ammunition you’ve selected appropriate to the task at hand. For example, there’s no reason to buy hollowpoints to practice your marksmanship! They’re more expensive, and will perform better, but ball will serve just fine for this role.

[Teddy B 17,251]

Balls and ammo together in one thread. Doesn't get any better!

[Ban Hammer 12,836]

Balls and ammo together in one thread. Doesn't get any better!

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

as for the type of powder leading to the definition of ball ammo, i've never heard that one.

I first heard that term referring to the type of propellant used while reading the history of the development of what became the M-16. Stoner's original design took advantage of the more evenly burning modern propellants, however, heritage ammunition manufacturers lobbied heavily for retention of Ball powder. As result, further modifications were made to the weapon especially the buffer and spring assembly.

The weapon’s reputation for durability and reliability was based on this ammo/extruded propellant combination. However, the military wanted to standardize propellants and the propellant used in the established 7.62×51mm NATO cartridge was Ball powder manufactured by Olin Corporation. So, when ammunition was ordered, Olin’s Ball powder was used for the new 5.56×45mm M193 Ball cartridge. Both powders created the desired 50,750 psi.

Ball (spherical) powder reaches its peak pressure significantly faster than extruded IMR powder. Ball powder generates larger amounts of carbon residue that clogs the gas tube and barrel port, causing the firearm to malfunction. The most serious malfunctions, during the early use of Ball powder, involved extraction problems and a significant increase in the cyclic rate of fire. Despite having this information, the Department Of Defense still approved use of Ball powder.

Gene Stoner was approached by Frank Vee of the OSD Comptrollers office after the package was approved and asked what he (Gene Stoner) thought of the use of Ball powder. Stoner asked, “Why are you asking me now?” Vee said, “I would have felt better if you would have approved the package.” Stoner replied, “Well, now we both don’t feel so good.”

http://www.gundigest.com/article/the-ar-16m16-the-rifle-that-was-never-supposed-to-be

[Ban Hammer 12,836]

however, calling something "ball ammo" based on the powder is stretching it as the powder cannot be seen.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

however, calling something "ball ammo" based on the powder is stretching it as the powder cannot be seen.

The bullets can be seen, and are not ball shaped. Either way, the nomenclature remains, whether because the projectile was spherical more than a hundred years ago, or because the propellant used still is.

Edited March 2, 2015 by I AM NOT THAT GUY

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Ball powders generally replaced Cordite.

[Ban Hammer 12,836]

still looking, but not finding a single source that supports your stance.

http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=351378

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-261520.html

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AwrBT.BFnfRUcqUA9PJXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE0MW5zMWRiBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMjUEY29sbwNiZjEEdnRpZANRQkFDSzJfMQ--?qid=20120110084933AAhm2C0

[lostinblue 1,989]

So back to topic ...Kevlar) is penetrable by nearly every single production rifle round that’s above .22 caliber.... So why ban this round .....

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

still looking, but not finding a single source that supports your stance.

http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=351378

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-261520.html

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AwrBT.BFnfRUcqUA9PJXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE0MW5zMWRiBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMjUEY29sbwNiZjEEdnRpZANRQkFDSzJfMQ--?qid=20120110084933AAhm2C0

I know. Been looking myself.

So back to topic ...Kevlar) is penetrable by nearly every single production rifle round that’s above .22 caliber.... So why ban this round .....

The steel penetrator?

Edited March 2, 2015 by I AM NOT THAT GUY