Can friends and relatives attend oath ceremonies?

[Kanyiri 0]

I would also disagree with the general statement that Marriage is a religious ceremony and that the whole point of marriage is to join together to raise a family, ie children. If that is the case then my husband and I have no right to be married - both of us are beyond child-bearing years - and we weren't married in a religious ceremony - we were married in a civil ceremony. We married because we love each and wanted to spend our lives together, not for religion and not for children.

My actual statement said, "If it is a religious ceremony" I had kids running around my wedding and I was fine with it. If yours or hers was not, that is different. I am fine with the fact that different people marry for different reasons and everyone has the right to their own decisions. Hence the beauty of America.

"Catholic theology has always recognized that, according to natural law and the Bible, marriage is not only for the companionship and mutual love of the spouses but also for the procreation of children.

Thomas Aquinas stated, "It is clear that offspring is the most essential thing in marriage, secondly fidelity, and thirdly [the] sacrament; even as to man it is more essential to be in nature than to be in grace, although it is more excellent to be in grace" (Summa Theologiae IIIb:49:3).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, "By its very nature the institution of marriage and married love is ordered to the procreation and education of the offspring, and it is in them that it finds its crowning glory" (CCC 1652). "Married couples should regard it as their proper mission to transmit human life and to educate their children" (CCC 2367)."

[ziia 9]

Ziia-I understand where you are coming from too, and by all means, you have every right to say what you have to say here. True, I was not at your ceremony, and I realize that in your situation you felt that your ceremony was not as expected with this happening. Nevertheless, just because one child is disrputive, doesn't mean that all children are this way.

Hi Ant. I agree, not all children are the same but all toddlers are because they don't know better, they are young and unaware of the solemnity of the event and if they are awake, they get bored. Either that or they sleep. If they are asleep, then I don't see your point in bringing them inside(they can wait with the nanny outside). It is not like you are going to stare at them as you listen to the judge and take the oath. You pay attention to what's being said, no? Now, imagine if you are there while in the background there were families trying to keep their children quiet and busy shushing or making goofy signs up in the air to make the kids focus on something else rather than crying or making loud baby noises? The person who would entertain such child would have no way of actually "being there" except physically as the kid would keep the adult busy too not just the other way around. It would all be a facade just so you "remember" years later who was there and show pictures to other friends and not to actually remember or feel, completely feel what it was about and how important this was for everyone there, including you or your spouse. Sure it is a great story to tell your kid later that he/she was there too but if that kid is not aware at that age it will not mean that much, trust me. It's the idea that's "cool" but aside from that there would be not much else. Sure, your kid will tell his/her friends when he grows up that he attended but he was too young and doesn't remember and guess what? It might surprise you but it won't mean that much for the general public either. You know what they will say? they will say "wow that's cool" or they might use "really?, that's cool" and that's about it. That is why i'm saying that having children there is only for your self interest to show something in pictures later on, not theirs and not anyone else's. The decision is for everyone to take but i'm just telling you from my point of view, going a bit in detail to offer a different perspective.

Just make sure the children are well behaved and under control, then all should go well there.

Or the toddler might surprise you and act his/her age(he's/she's not a dog that can be trained when to shut up and you know this) and start crying and then you know what happens? Either everyone else has the ceremony disrupted and can't hear the judge or both the kid and the parent are told to leave the room and they both miss the important event...the father(or mother) won't even be able to tell the kid what it was like because he wouldn't have been there. Imagine this as a story to tell: yeah, I attended to your mother's Oath and quarter way in you started crying and I missed it. Go ask your mother about it". I mean, really, people are taking a chance like that when they show up with kids that are too young to understand anything that's going on.

"This only happens once in a lifetime"...and one should be able to bring their loved ones to celebrate with them at all parts of the ceremony.

I agree with you if the parent who's child is disrupting the ceremony would get out on his own without having the judge cut off the actual speech to tell the father how to behave like an adult(respectful to others around) or is everyone there, including kids would be of a decent age to understand what's going on.

If the ceremony was only about the people taking the oath, then why are family, friends, and others invited?

So by having it in a group ceremony, the USCIS is encouraging everyone that is is a family event and that "all are invited"!....

If it is only about the oath takers, then they should forget about the group ceremony and just say "no one else is invited, only oath takers".....

By inviting all guests, then they know that oath takers will bring their children, or whoever else...And those people may cause disruptions.....

Lol..The USCIS as the host assumes responsibility there....

Then assume that there are irresponsible people too...

And assume that there even more people who are responsible too...

They want to invite abd be welcoming everyone....And one should feel welcomed into the country as a US Citizen and with their loved ones...

You welcome me, you welcome my family too! After all...Children are future citizens of the country too!

My point is: Keep the ceremony open and welcome to all, or to none at all.....

And parents...please be responsible with your children.....

Ant

That's the whole idea...what you said last I give you credit and I applaud. People have to be responsible for their children. I would also like to add that USCIS is not specialized and doesn't focus on parenting issues and doesn't have the authority to tell people who to bring and who not to. That would be discrimination if they would put it black on white because there are a lot of sensitive people out there and a lot of ambulance chasers who would jump in a lawsuit as soon as an issue like that would come up. Remember where you are living and try to throw a little rock out your window...the chases to hit a lawyer with it are quite high. The chances for that lawyer to take you to court for spine injuries(even if it is a tiny little harmless stone that actually didn't hit him but his friend or his briefcase) are even higher...i dare say about 90% or even more now with this economy:). So, the point i'm trying to make is that USCIS can't tell you who to bring at the Oath. The most as they can do without a lawsuit being slammed at them is tell you that everyone should behave. The rest they leave it up to the common sense of people to have respect for one another and for the rest of the people there and take the appropriate grown up action to either not attend the event with an unaware tiny baby(yes, babies cry unless they sleep and it is not their fault) that's not gonna remember anything anyway or if they want to take a chance and bring such baby then they should be ready to leave the courtroom out of respect for the rest of the people there, and possibly miss the event themselves and NOT wave your arms around, shushing your way through the baby's cry and the judge's speech and wait until everyone takes notice of you and the ceremony is interrupted for everyone just for you(i'm using 2nd person but i speak in general) to be asked to get out and miss everything. If that's the chance you want to take, by all means, bring whomever you want.

Edited March 1, 2010 by ziia

[ziia 9]

Also, the event is first for the people there taking the Oath and second come the friends and family for those people. I understand that some can't possibly put themselves and their family to the same equality(importance) level with other strangers but at this event you have to.

I was lucky to have the judge take such action and tell the guy to leave the courtroom until the kid calms down. My Oath Ceremony was wonderful and meaningful because of that judge. I am sure that everyone else there felt the same way. We were grateful the whole thing happened towards the beginning of the ceremony so we did not miss a thing and everything turned out perfect! Still why i got into this discussion is because I read that another poster had to actually sit at their Oath event, listening to a baby while trying to hear the whole thing and that is so wrong, I feel bad for them. People with toddlers should either leave them home or in the waiting room or be respectful to others or be told to leave when the kid becomes disruptive. If the judge wouldn't have told that person to step out, I would have and I think anyone should have the guts to do that because the Citizenship ceremony is as important for everyone there as it is important for any other person there. Everyone should have the right to have great memories about it:). 'nough said.

Edited March 1, 2010 by ziia

[Anh map 2,098]

Disruptive guests, regardless of age, should not spoil the event for the oath takers. As stated earleir: parents be responsible. That means use your formal, public filter, not at home filter when judging acceptable behavior.

If a person wants to have potentially disruptive persons attend (young child, DD family member, grandparent with Alzheimers, etc.) then why not make arrangements for a private ceremony?

[antda 13]

Disruptive guests, regardless of age, should not spoil the event for the oath takers. As stated earleir: parents be responsible. That means use your formal, public filter, not at home filter when judging acceptable behavior.

If a person wants to have potentially disruptive persons attend (young child, DD family member, grandparent with Alzheimers, etc.) then why not make arrangements for a private ceremony?

Anhmap-I agree!!!....

Yes, parents should be responsible for their children (as I mentioned above in my earlier posts).

And ANY person can be disrputive, regardless of age, conditions, etc. No need to just single out children here....

So those who bring these potentially disruptive guests should be responsible for their guests too.

And it's funny how the USCIS holds responsibility here too, as when they arrange a big group of guests together in one room, something is bound to happen...someone is more likely to disrupt.....lol...Hard to control 200+ people in one small crammed room, really.....

By all means, I definitely think that one should have the option for a group ceremony versus a private ceremony, due to their circumstances...

Lol..Glad that I did the responsible thing here....Worked out for the best that I had my private oath ceremony instead of a group one....

Really, do I need people who dislike children to ruin my ceremony with my family? lol.....

Ant

[antda 13]

Ziia-True, that some children do not know any better at times, and can misbehave. However, there are also children that are well behaved and can sit through an oath ceremony without any problems. That is the responsibility of the parent to make sure that the children are well behaved during moments like this, and if they cannot control their children, then yes, they should leave the room to calm their child down. One bad apple shouldn't spoil the whole bunch. Again, sorry to hear that in your ceremony a child was disruptive there, but this is not the case in all ceremonies, I'm sure. Children can learn a great deal out of these events, and I personally think that if they are well behaved, they have every right to be there. Just because they don't remember it at the monent, doesn't mean that they don't remember being there at all. For example, I went to my Canadian naturalization ceremony as a child (even though it wasn't required of me to go then), and even though I don't remember all the moments of it, I still remember some of it and have memories of it through photos and through my parents telling me about it. My family was happy for me to be there, and I was happy to be there too. Another example is of my then 3 month old son going to my American naturalization ceremony. Sure he won't remember it, but when I tell him about it later on, and when I show him the photos, I bet you more than anything, he well be happy about such, just as I was happy about him being there. I wouldn't have wanted it any other way. And what better way to explain my immigration journey, then to share such a story with those that attended such with me. Again, naturalization ceremonies are a family and friends event, and as far as I and/or the USCIS is concerned, "all are welcomed", regardless. Sure there can be discruptions and things not going as planned along the way. But that should come as no surprise really, especially with a room full of so many people. Lol..If it was my child that was being disruptive, I would have done the proper thing, and would have stepped out of the room to calm my child down, then would have returned when they were calmed down. If the child then did not calm down, I would have just left for the day, and said the heck the group ceremony, and I would have left right then and there, and figured out other arrangements for another more child-friendly ceremony later on. Lol..luckily it didn't come to that for me though, as I arranged for a private ceremony beforehand (for various other reasons though..that's another story), and even during that, my son was well behaved during my ceremony. It is not my fault that the USCIS seems to "lump everyone together" in one big group for a 1-2 hour long ceremony, making everyone wait and sit still for so long, for their convenience, not bearing in mind that some people bring children and/or other people that can be disruptive. Heck, even adults can grow impatient at being treated like this. I would not blame a child presonally for making a fuss, because they didn't know any better. What an awful thing to say to a child that they were to blame for an oath taker missing out on a ceremony. Instead of thinking negatively that the child was disruptive, at least I can say to the child "at least you were there for the first few minutes, and that you tried to be there for me", and that is all that matters. You yourself say that it is "discrimination" and that the USCIS doesn't have too much of a say as to who can come to a ceremony or not. Then why is it that you say that toddlers cannot come to a ceremony? Seems kind of contradictory there. It should be "all or nothing"....Either guests are allowed to come, or not allowed to come at all....And that is up to the USCIS to decide. Oath-takers only, or Oath-takers with their guests...That they can decide on. But until that happens, again, it is a "free for all and all are welcome!" And that's the way it should be...

After all, shouldn't all citizens and potential citizens be "Welcomed to America!", surrounded by the ones that they love and care about.

Ok..I'm done with this topic...moving on to another post topic...

Ant

Hi Ant. I agree, not all children are the same but all toddlers are because they don't know better, they are young and unaware of the solemnity of the event and if they are awake, they get bored. Either that or they sleep. If they are asleep, then I don't see your point in bringing them inside(they can wait with the nanny outside). It is not like you are going to stare at them as you listen to the judge and take the oath. You pay attention to what's being said, no? Now, imagine if you are there while in the background there were families trying to keep their children quiet and busy shushing or making goofy signs up in the air to make the kids focus on something else rather than crying or making loud baby noises? The person who would entertain such child would have no way of actually "being there" except physically as the kid would keep the adult busy too not just the other way around. It would all be a facade just so you "remember" years later who was there and show pictures to other friends and not to actually remember or feel, completely feel what it was about and how important this was for everyone there, including you or your spouse. Sure it is a great story to tell your kid later that he/she was there too but if that kid is not aware at that age it will not mean that much, trust me. It's the idea that's "cool" but aside from that there would be not much else. Sure, your kid will tell his/her friends when he grows up that he attended but he was too young and doesn't remember and guess what? It might surprise you but it won't mean that much for the general public either. You know what they will say? they will say "wow that's cool" or they might use "really?, that's cool" and that's about it. That is why i'm saying that having children there is only for your self interest to show something in pictures later on, not theirs and not anyone else's. The decision is for everyone to take but i'm just telling you from my point of view, going a bit in detail to offer a different perspective.

Or the toddler might surprise you and act his/her age(he's/she's not a dog that can be trained when to shut up and you know this) and start crying and then you know what happens? Either everyone else has the ceremony disrupted and can't hear the judge or both the kid and the parent are told to leave the room and they both miss the important event...the father(or mother) won't even be able to tell the kid what it was like because he wouldn't have been there. Imagine this as a story to tell: yeah, I attended to your mother's Oath and quarter way in you started crying and I missed it. Go ask your mother about it". I mean, really, people are taking a chance like that when they show up with kids that are too young to understand anything that's going on.

I agree with you if the parent who's child is disrupting the ceremony would get out on his own without having the judge cut off the actual speech to tell the father how to behave like an adult(respectful to others around) or is everyone there, including kids would be of a decent age to understand what's going on.

That's the whole idea...what you said last I give you credit and I applaud. People have to be responsible for their children. I would also like to add that USCIS is not specialized and doesn't focus on parenting issues and doesn't have the authority to tell people who to bring and who not to. That would be discrimination if they would put it black on white because there are a lot of sensitive people out there and a lot of ambulance chasers who would jump in a lawsuit as soon as an issue like that would come up. Remember where you are living and try to throw a little rock out your window...the chases to hit a lawyer with it are quite high. The chances for that lawyer to take you to court for spine injuries(even if it is a tiny little harmless stone that actually didn't hit him but his friend or his briefcase) are even higher...i dare say about 90% or even more now with this economy:). So, the point i'm trying to make is that USCIS can't tell you who to bring at the Oath. The most as they can do without a lawsuit being slammed at them is tell you that everyone should behave. The rest they leave it up to the common sense of people to have respect for one another and for the rest of the people there and take the appropriate grown up action to either not attend the event with an unaware tiny baby(yes, babies cry unless they sleep and it is not their fault) that's not gonna remember anything anyway or if they want to take a chance and bring such baby then they should be ready to leave the courtroom out of respect for the rest of the people there, and possibly miss the event themselves and NOT wave your arms around, shushing your way through the baby's cry and the judge's speech and wait until everyone takes notice of you and the ceremony is interrupted for everyone just for you(i'm using 2nd person but i speak in general) to be asked to get out and miss everything. If that's the chance you want to take, by all means, bring whomever you want.

Also, the event is first for the people there taking the Oath and second come the friends and family for those people. I understand that some can't possibly put themselves and their family to the same equality(importance) level with other strangers but at this event you have to.

I was lucky to have the judge take such action and tell the guy to leave the courtroom until the kid calms down. My Oath Ceremony was wonderful and meaningful because of that judge. I am sure that everyone else there felt the same way. We were grateful the whole thing happened towards the beginning of the ceremony so we did not miss a thing and everything turned out perfect! Still why i got into this discussion is because I read that another poster had to actually sit at their Oath event, listening to a baby while trying to hear the whole thing and that is so wrong, I feel bad for them. People with toddlers should either leave them home or in the waiting room or be respectful to others or be told to leave when the kid becomes disruptive. If the judge wouldn't have told that person to step out, I would have and I think anyone should have the guts to do that because the Citizenship ceremony is as important for everyone there as it is important for any other person there. Everyone should have the right to have great memories about it:). 'nough said.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Ant+D+BabyA

[ziia 9]

Ziia-True, that some children do not know any better at times, and can misbehave. However, there are also children that are well behaved and can sit through an oath ceremony without any problems. That is the responsibility of the parent to make sure that the children are well behaved during moments like this, and if they cannot control their children, then yes, they should leave the room to calm their child down. One bad apple shouldn't spoil the whole bunch. Again, sorry to hear that in your ceremony a child was disruptive there, but this is not the case in all ceremonies, I'm sure. Children can learn a great deal out of these events, and I personally think that if they are well behaved, they have every right to be there.

Ant, I don't mean to be offensive here but do you even read my posts? I am talking about TODDLERS, not children of 3 years and up, but actually small babies(2-3-8-10 months old) who only do 3 things: sleep, eat and cry. I love children, I don't know what made you make those comments. My comments have nothing to do in that respect but are focused solely on the importance of the Oath Ceremony and the fact that adults should be responsible and leave the courtroom if the TODDLER starts crying so the other people there can have the experience they deserve to such event. Twisting my words around and dismissing me or other people as "oh, they don't like children" is so wrong and very ignorant for you to say(maybe the smartest way is just for me to drop it because you obviously see things to an extreme and refuse to acknowledge others perspectives). First of all you don't know me and second of all I think my English is pretty darn clear that what I was trying to say all this time has everything to do with THE OATH EVENT and PEOPLE TAKING THE OATH and RESPECT FOR OTHERS AROUND YOU and not the love for kids. Can you see past the baby stroller when you answer? or I should just give up!?

To say that 200 grownups can't behave for an hour in a US courtroom, at such an event, with a judge and security around then I have no comment, i'm speechless!-it's too out there for me to even comprehend the fact that such adults would manage to attend such ceremony. But that's just me.

Who in their right minds would want a mentally ill(with papers, so no offense) person there with them? First of all: why in the world would anyone opt to bring that person fully knowing that there might be a slight change they'll go "bazooka"? Anyway, i think i'm done here too..moving as well to another topic but before that I want to say that I agree with you that there should be a "special" room assembled for looters or families who somehow managed to live a "clean" life and get the Citizenship or decided to enter as guests.

Edited March 2, 2010 by ziia

[antda 13]

Ziia-Now the same back to you: Don't you even read my posts?

I am talking overall about DISCRIMINATION, regardless of who does the discriminating around here. And children should not be discriminated against attending special events/ceremonies just because they are children and don't know any better. Again, there are some children that can misbehave, while others are not, and to assume all children misbehave is just wrong. It is the parents' responsibility to make sure they are well behaved in events like this, and if they misbehave, then they should be removed out of the room. You are right in saying...IT IS RESPECT FOR OTHERS AROUND YOU. And if there is children around you, you should respect them too. Same goes for distabled people, people with other medical conditions, old people, young people, whatever....

Everyone is invited to such an oath ceremony, and they should not be discriminated against, just because they can be preceived as being troublemakers, even though they might not be. That is discrimination and that is wrong.

Personally, I think that it is insensitive of you to say that the oath ceremony is just about the oath takers.

It is about family and friends too, according to the USCIS, and that's why they are invited to such.

How would you feel if your family and friends wern't invited to such a ceremony, just because they were a certain way?

Gee, isn't that discrimination too? I'm sure you wouldn't like that either.....

My point is: The oath ceremonies should be open to all. "All are welcomed to the ceremony, and all are welcomed to America!" Nobody should be discriminated against!

Lol..In certain situations, I've seen other grownups act less in a mature way that the children too. Enough said.

Ant

P.S. My then 3-month old son acted just fine during my ceremony....And he does more than eat, sleep, and cry......

Ant, I don't mean to be offensive here but do you even read my posts? I am talking about TODDLERS, not children of 3 years and up, but actually small babies(2-3-8-10 months old) who only do 3 things: sleep, eat and cry. I love children, I don't know what made you make those comments. My comments have nothing to do in that respect but are focused solely on the importance of the Oath Ceremony and the fact that adults should be responsible and leave the courtroom if the TODDLER starts crying so the other people there can have the experience they deserve to such event. Twisting my words around and dismissing me or other people as "oh, they don't like children" is so wrong and very ignorant for you to say(maybe the smartest way is just for me to drop it because you obviously see things to an extreme and refuse to acknowledge others perspectives). First of all you don't know me and second of all I think my English is pretty darn clear that what I was trying to say all this time has everything to do with THE OATH EVENT and PEOPLE TAKING THE OATH and RESPECT FOR OTHERS AROUND YOU and not the love for kids. Can you see past the baby stroller when you answer? or I should just give up!?

To say that 200 grownups can't behave for an hour in a US courtroom, at such an event, with a judge and security around then I have no comment, i'm speechless!-it's too out there for me to even comprehend the fact that such adults would manage to attend such ceremony. But that's just me.

Who in their right minds would want a mentally ill(with papers, so no offense) person there with them? First of all: why in the world would anyone opt to bring that person fully knowing that there might be a slight change they'll go "bazooka"? Anyway, i think i'm done here too..moving as well to another topic but before that I want to say that I agree with you that there should be a "special" room assembled for looters or families who somehow managed to live a "clean" life and get the Citizenship or decided to enter as guests.

Edited March 2, 2010 by Ant+D+BabyA

[Kathryn41 3,205]

This is the other issue I was trying to make - that the spaces in which Citizenship oath ceremonies are held are often not 'spacious' and that they can quickly become crowded if people bring a lot of guests. This is a direct quote from the USCIS website for offices in the District of Columbia:

We have limited seating capacity in our waiting room areas. Unless the presence of your child is required, please do not bring small children to the scheduled interview or oath ceremony.

https://egov.uscis.gov/crisgwi/go?action=of...or.statecode=DC

[Jules67 0]

Thank you all for responding to my query. I will be bringing my family, including four children (2 three yr olds and 2 one year olds). A friend is accompanying us to give a hand should it require that we remove ourselves (excluding me) should the kids become disruptive. My experience with the toddlers is such (at church and other gatherings) that I am confident they will do me proud. However, kids are kids, and should they need to be removed from the ceremony, we will make sure that it happens. It is very important to me that they are there with me, as my journey in some ways have been their journeys as well.

This forum has really made me realize what a gift it is - American citizenship. I have appreciated this and other debates on here tremendously as it has time and again reminded me of freedom and democracy, of which is sorely amiss in a lot of our home countries.

Again, thank you all, and Vive la difference!

Jules

[antda 13]

This is the other issue I was trying to make - that the spaces in which Citizenship oath ceremonies are held are often not 'spacious' and that they can quickly become crowded if people bring a lot of guests. This is a direct quote from the USCIS website for offices in the District of Columbia:

We have limited seating capacity in our waiting room areas. Unless the presence of your child is required, please do not bring small children to the scheduled interview or oath ceremony.

https://egov.uscis.gov/crisgwi/go?action=of...or.statecode=DC

Kathryn-Understandable that in this particular office, that the USCIS does not allow children due to limited seating. For safety (and whatever else reasons...lol..probably an immigration official that gets annoyed at children easily...just kidding..), then yes, children should not attend, as stated by the USCIS that they cannot do such. See, this is what the USCIS needs to do for all its offices and oath ceremonies...clearly state who can attend, and who cannot, and WHY this is the reason....If it is a safety and/or heath reason...fine.....But if it is just for discriminatory reasons..That is wrong there....

In the end, it is the USCIS that says as to who can attend and who can not, and they have to be held accountable too as for what they decide there...

Hmm..I wonder what happens to the people that do bring their children there, if they have no choice for other childcare arrangements?....Do they not get to take the oath?...Can they request for other locations instead?.....Doesn't seem fair for those who live in that area who have children....

Lol..To Ziia....Maybe you should have had your oath ceremony in Washington, DC...It's a child-free zone there..

Ant

[antda 13]

Jules67-You're welcome...Glad to be able to help you here...

Lol..Sorry that it had to go into some long debate though..

Nevertheless, as you said..."American is about freedom and democracy"...

And it is great to be able to have that opportunity to have such here in the USA!

Glad to hear too, that you are bringing your children and the rest of your family and friends! (which you shouldn't have any problems in at your location..good too, that you have extra help with you that day and are a responsible parent there in thinking ahead regarding such...)...

I'm sure they will make you proud! And yes, "their journey is your journey" too!

Someday your children are able to look back on this and be happy for you, and be happy that they got to see you there and be part of such a moment!

This is definitely a family and friends special occasion/event! And I'm glad that you find them important to be there with you for that day!

Good luck to you and your family for your oath ceremony coming up soon!

And yes, do post about that here on VJ afterwards too! I'm looking forward to reading your oath ceremony review, children and all!

Ant

Thank you all for responding to my query. I will be bringing my family, including four children (2 three yr olds and 2 one year olds). A friend is accompanying us to give a hand should it require that we remove ourselves (excluding me) should the kids become disruptive. My experience with the toddlers is such (at church and other gatherings) that I am confident they will do me proud. However, kids are kids, and should they need to be removed from the ceremony, we will make sure that it happens. It is very important to me that they are there with me, as my journey in some ways have been their journeys as well.

This forum has really made me realize what a gift it is - American citizenship. I have appreciated this and other debates on here tremendously as it has time and again reminded me of freedom and democracy, of which is sorely amiss in a lot of our home countries.

Again, thank you all, and Vive la difference!

Jules

Edited March 2, 2010 by Ant+D+BabyA

[antda 13]

Jules67-By the way, here are the links to the local offices in Massachussets:

https://egov.uscis.gov/crisgwi/go?action=of...or.statecode=MA

And more specifically so, here is the link to the Boston, MA local office (where your oath ceremony will be, I think, based on the Sept N-400 thread...):

https://egov.uscis.gov/crisgwi/go?action=of...or.statecode=MA

And nowhere on those pages does it say that small children are not allowed for naturalization ceremonies for that location!

So by all means..This definitely means..."All are welcomed to attend the ceremony!".....

Go ahead, and bring your family and friends for your special day!

Ant

Edited March 2, 2010 by Ant+D+BabyA

[ziia 9]

Ziia-Now the same back to you: Don't you even read my posts?

I am talking overall about DISCRIMINATION, regardless of who does the discriminating around here. And children should not be discriminated against attending special events/ceremonies just because they are children and don't know any better. Again, there are some children that can misbehave, while others are not, and to assume all children misbehave is just wrong. It is the parents' responsibility to make sure they are well behaved in events like this, and if they misbehave, then they should be removed out of the room. You are right in saying...IT IS RESPECT FOR OTHERS AROUND YOU.

I think we're both saying the same thing with different words, that's why we don't get along lol. I agree with you except for the fact that no one is discriminating. It is up to every person to decide who to bring and how chance they want to take with the people they opt to bring as guests.

And if there is children around you, you should respect them too. Same goes for distabled people, people with other medical conditions, old people, young people, whatever....

Everyone is invited to such an oath ceremony, and they should not be discriminated against, just because they can be preceived as being troublemakers, even though they might not be. That is discrimination and that is wrong.

How in the world do you go about respecting a child? What is that anyway? Like what, let him/her cry for hours and not do anything about it but smile because you "god forbid" disrespect a toddler? Give me a break. You make me wanna say right now a line from Seinfeld "the dingow ate cho baby"(with an accent too) lol...because you keep talking about disrespect without any proof. lol I'm just joking man, so don't jump on me next . I respect a human being, any human being and their right to live free. I don't understand why you bring "discrimination" and "respect"(funny, that word I used to prove my point) into this? What made you think I don't respect kids or other humans? I didn't say i'll go to USCIS and post a note or make a big deal out of who can come to the Oath and who can't. All I said is for people to be responsible and if they bring a disruptive person, to take action right away just so that everyone can have a decent Ceremony. I also didn't encourage taking toddlers inside the room IF the person who takes care of them doesn't want to take the chance to miss the whole thing in case the kid starts crying and keeps going. What part of my English makes me a "bad person" according to you and what part shows I don't respect children and disabled people? You said it yourself that people should have the option to take the Oath separate from others. Should I consider that discrimination too? I mean really...let it go because apparently we are on the same page, we just don't know it . And admit it, it's kind of fun disagreeing with me heh?

Personally, I think that it is insensitive of you to say that the oath ceremony is just about the oath takers.

I said it's first for them and second for their guests. I corrected that in a following post

How would you feel if your family and friends wern't invited to such a ceremony, just because they were a certain way?

Why you keep going with this? I said it is a personal decision everyone should be able to take. USCIS doesn't deal with family issues nor is a nanny that tells adults to be responsible. If I had a toddler, i'd most likely leave him/her home that day or bring her/him with and have the nanny and the kid waiting outside the courtroom to make sure the ceremony is not disrupted by my baby starting to cry or doors opening and closing. If one of my family members had some mental issues and might act up, again I would use my judgment in whether it is advantageous for that person, me and others to take them with or not. If they can comprehend the event and I can get through to them that they have to sit there for an hour and not disrupt, then of course i'd take them with. But if they can't understand nada of what's going on, what's the point? Just so I tell friends, just for my ego gratification? Maybe you think different and that's fine but that is how I think. And please don't mention "discrimination" again because no one is discriminating and I'm not telling you or USCIS they should do something about this. It's called a personal opinion and personal responsibility each has to be aware of BEFORE they show up in court. Hope i made myself clear.

P.S. My then 3-month old son acted just fine during my ceremony....And he does more than eat, sleep, and cry......

I don't wanna go there but I know

To Ziia....Maybe you should have had your oath ceremony in Washington, DC...It's a child-free zone there..wink.gif

Ahhhh you keep pushing my button, man lol. I'ma get you for this lol-just kidding. Peace and take care.

Edited March 2, 2010 by ziia

[ziia 9]

If your toddler behaved(probably slept:)) then that's cool. But a lot of toddlers cry when they get bored and you know it. All I wanted here is to raise awareness that people show respect for the event and for the other people and if they opt to bring the toddlers with(which is FINE, it's their right and no one has any problem with that) they should be aware that they might have to leave the room ON THEIR OWN in case the kid starts crying and keeps crying, disrupting the Ceremony for others. As long as the adults with SMALL children(babies, toddlers) are aware of the fact that someone might, just might miss the ceremony then they will know in who's care to leave that kid if they bring him with. I don't recommend it is a family member because that person might have to leave in case the toddler acts like a toddler in court. THAT"S ALL! Hope my point is clear now:)

Edited March 2, 2010 by ziia