Speeding Ticket and Naturalization

[Italian_in_NYC 259]

N-400 instructions are clearly flawed...

Then I suggest you contact USCIS and ask them to change the instructions. Don't go on the verbal assurance of anyone, even if they are a government official.

If there is any confusion on how to answer, I would advise that people err on the side of being truthful and disclosing too much instead of too little. If you fail to disclose something, you could be denied, or your citizenship could be taken away at a later time if USCIS eventually finds out. Now, granted, the odds of these sanctions probably aren't that great, but it doesn't matter what the odds are if you end up being the unlucky target of them.

It seems strange to me the people who say not to discose are asked what they would have to lose by telling the whole truth, their response is to accuse those of us who choose to be up front and honest on our applications of being paranoid.

They're talking about legalizing millions of people who broke the law and crossed the border illegally and then they want to deny or possibly denaturalize people for a moving violation?

I'm fine with that, go ahead and deny me, I don't really need a US passport anyways.

But it does sound a little ridicolous, wouldn't you agree?

N-400 instructions are clearly flawed...

Then I suggest you contact USCIS and ask them to change the instructions. Don't go on the verbal assurance of anyone, even if they are a government official.

If there is any confusion on how to answer, I would advise that people err on the side of being truthful and disclosing too much instead of too little. If you fail to disclose something, you could be denied, or your citizenship could be taken away at a later time if USCIS eventually finds out. Now, granted, the odds of these sanctions probably aren't that great, but it doesn't matter what the odds are if you end up being the unlucky target of them.

It seems strange to me the people who say not to discose are asked what they would have to lose by telling the whole truth, their response is to accuse those of us who choose to be up front and honest on our applications of being paranoid.

Then go ahead and disclose all the "crimes" you committed without being arrested (caught).

I guarantee you nobody would apply for naturalization...

[jsnearline 2]

Sigh....you seem to assume that the plain meaning of words such as "crime" and "offense" governs.

For someone who has an ordinary traffic citation, i.e. a mere "moving violation," the answer to this question is almost certainly

NO, because a "moving violation," barring additional circumstances/enhancements (e.g. alcohol) is NOT a crime or an offense.

Not necessarily... Here's what our local traffic court has on their website

Centennial Municipal Court handles a wide variety of minor offense violations which include traffic penalties, animal violations, municipal code and zoning code violations.

[jsnearline 2]

They're talking about legalizing millions of people who broke the law and crossed the border illegally and then they want to deny or possibly denaturalize people for a moving violation?

I'm fine with that, go ahead and deny me, I don't really need a US passport anyways.

But it does sound a little ridicolous, wouldn't you agree?

Then go ahead and disclose all the "crimes" you committed without being arrested (caught).

I guarantee you nobody would apply for naturalization...

I never said the rules or the process made sense, but unfortunately we don't get to make or change them on our own.

My wife answered "yes" to question 15 because she got a speeding ticket and was cited but not arrested. It seems to me the wording on the question should be re-written to "Have you ever committed a crime or offense for which you were not arrested, cited or detained by any law enforcement officer?"

[Rigoletto 0]

They're talking about legalizing millions of people who broke the law and crossed the border illegally and then they want to deny or possibly denaturalize people for a moving violation?

I'm fine with that, go ahead and deny me, I don't really need a US passport anyways.

But it does sound a little ridicolous, wouldn't you agree?

Then go ahead and disclose all the "crimes" you committed without being arrested (caught).

I guarantee you nobody would apply for naturalization...

I never said the rules or the process made sense, but unfortunately we don't get to make or change them on our own.

My wife answered "yes" to question 15 because she got a speeding ticket and was cited but not arrested. It seems to me the wording on the question should be re-written to "Have you ever committed a crime or offense for which you were not arrested, cited or detained by any law enforcement officer?"

Again, why do you assume that a speeding ticket/citation is a "crime" or an "offense"? The legal definitions are

quite different from everyday language.

Under the facts you pose, your wife should have answered NO to question 15 and YES to question 16. [Of course,

you may say, in practice, does it really matter whether I said YES to both or YES only to question 16. Probably

not, since it is pretty clear that your intent was to give full disclosure. But since we are debating the technicalities

here, I thought I should point out the legally correct answer.]

[jsnearline 2]

Why would she have answered "no" to 15? The question on the form is "Have you ever committed a crime or offense for which you were not arrested?"

The court with jurisdiction classifies a traffic violation is a minor offense and I'll take them at their word.

My wife committed an offense (speeding) for which she was cited, but NOT arrested. Therefore, based on the way the question is worded, "yes" appears to be the correct answer.

Edited April 21, 2009 by jsnearline

[KyngSilva 0]

They're talking about legalizing millions of people who broke the law and crossed the border illegally and then they want to deny or possibly denaturalize people for a moving violation?

I'm fine with that, go ahead and deny me, I don't really need a US passport anyways.

But it does sound a little ridicolous, wouldn't you agree?

Then go ahead and disclose all the "crimes" you committed without being arrested (caught).

I guarantee you nobody would apply for naturalization...

I never said the rules or the process made sense, but unfortunately we don't get to make or change them on our own.

My wife answered "yes" to question 15 because she got a speeding ticket and was cited but not arrested. It seems to me the wording on the question should be re-written to "Have you ever committed a crime or offense for which you were not arrested, cited or detained by any law enforcement officer?"

Again, why do you assume that a speeding ticket/citation is a "crime" or an "offense"? The legal definitions are

quite different from everyday language.

Under the facts you pose, your wife should have answered NO to question 15 and YES to question 16. [Of course,

you may say, in practice, does it really matter whether I said YES to both or YES only to question 16. Probably

not, since it is pretty clear that your intent was to give full disclosure. But since we are debating the technicalities

here, I thought I should point out the legally correct answer.]

So what is the legally correct answer? According my state

An offense is a violation of the penal law. An offense can range from a simple petty misdemeanor (e.g. a traffic violation) to a felony (e.g. capital murder). In common law usage, 'offense' differs from 'crime' in that there is typically no victim, but the action remains prohibited by statute.

And now I'm done with this topic. We are going around in circles. You want to report it, do it. You don't want to report it don't.

[chuckandkim 0]

Or just obey the speed limit law on the road... you leadfoot you!

[warlord 72]

Best bet then if you are worried is to contact the INS yourself and ask them. That's what I did along with many others and we were saved the trouble and hassle of having to get all the documentation for old tickets. It didn't even matter that it came up in the interview.

Now just remember for a lot of people tracking down and trying to get the records of old tickets might be a lot of work, especially out of state fines, so just be prepared if you do decide you want to go through with it, to really get working on it as it may not be as easy as you hope...

[Rigoletto 0]

Why would she have answered "no" to 15? The question on the form is "Have you ever committed a crime or offense for which you were not arrested?"

The court with jurisdiction classifies a traffic violation is a minor offense and I'll take them at their word.

My wife committed an offense (speeding) for which she was cited, but NOT arrested. Therefore, based on the way the question is worded, "yes" appears to be the correct answer.

Which body of law did you use in defining the word "offense?" Remember who the party is that is using the

word "offense." This question does NOT turn on CO law.

They're talking about legalizing millions of people who broke the law and crossed the border illegally and then they want to deny or possibly denaturalize people for a moving violation?

I'm fine with that, go ahead and deny me, I don't really need a US passport anyways.

But it does sound a little ridicolous, wouldn't you agree?

Then go ahead and disclose all the "crimes" you committed without being arrested (caught).

I guarantee you nobody would apply for naturalization...

I never said the rules or the process made sense, but unfortunately we don't get to make or change them on our own.

My wife answered "yes" to question 15 because she got a speeding ticket and was cited but not arrested. It seems to me the wording on the question should be re-written to "Have you ever committed a crime or offense for which you were not arrested, cited or detained by any law enforcement officer?"

Again, why do you assume that a speeding ticket/citation is a "crime" or an "offense"? The legal definitions are

quite different from everyday language.

Under the facts you pose, your wife should have answered NO to question 15 and YES to question 16. [Of course,

you may say, in practice, does it really matter whether I said YES to both or YES only to question 16. Probably

not, since it is pretty clear that your intent was to give full disclosure. But since we are debating the technicalities

here, I thought I should point out the legally correct answer.]

So what is the legally correct answer? According my state

An offense is a violation of the penal law. An offense can range from a simple petty misdemeanor (e.g. a traffic violation) to a felony (e.g. capital murder). In common law usage, 'offense' differs from 'crime' in that there is typically no victim, but the action remains prohibited by statute.

And now I'm done with this topic. We are going around in circles. You want to report it, do it. You don't want to report it don't.

Why do you assume that your state law applies? Also, why do you assume that a traffic citation is a misdemeanor? Felonies and

misdemeanors are not the only violations that exist and not all violations are "crimes" or "offenses."

[jasminelily 1]

Why would she have answered "no" to 15? The question on the form is "Have you ever committed a crime or offense for which you were not arrested?"

The court with jurisdiction classifies a traffic violation is a minor offense and I'll take them at their word.

My wife committed an offense (speeding) for which she was cited, but NOT arrested. Therefore, based on the way the question is worded, "yes" appears to be the correct answer.

Which body of law did you use in defining the word "offense?" Remember who the party is that is using the

word "offense." This question does NOT turn on CO law.

They're talking about legalizing millions of people who broke the law and crossed the border illegally and then they want to deny or possibly denaturalize people for a moving violation?

I'm fine with that, go ahead and deny me, I don't really need a US passport anyways.

But it does sound a little ridicolous, wouldn't you agree?

Then go ahead and disclose all the "crimes" you committed without being arrested (caught).

I guarantee you nobody would apply for naturalization...

I never said the rules or the process made sense, but unfortunately we don't get to make or change them on our own.

My wife answered "yes" to question 15 because she got a speeding ticket and was cited but not arrested. It seems to me the wording on the question should be re-written to "Have you ever committed a crime or offense for which you were not arrested, cited or detained by any law enforcement officer?"

Again, why do you assume that a speeding ticket/citation is a "crime" or an "offense"? The legal definitions are

quite different from everyday language.

Under the facts you pose, your wife should have answered NO to question 15 and YES to question 16. [Of course,

you may say, in practice, does it really matter whether I said YES to both or YES only to question 16. Probably

not, since it is pretty clear that your intent was to give full disclosure. But since we are debating the technicalities

here, I thought I should point out the legally correct answer.]

So what is the legally correct answer? According my state

An offense is a violation of the penal law. An offense can range from a simple petty misdemeanor (e.g. a traffic violation) to a felony (e.g. capital murder). In common law usage, 'offense' differs from 'crime' in that there is typically no victim, but the action remains prohibited by statute.

And now I'm done with this topic. We are going around in circles. You want to report it, do it. You don't want to report it don't.

Why do you assume that your state law applies? Also, why do you assume that a traffic citation is a misdemeanor? Felonies and

misdemeanors are not the only violations that exist and not all violations are "crimes" or "offenses."

I have come to a stop myself on this "English/law/explanation/definition" game. I have come to the conclusion agreeable with KyngSilva: You want to report it, do it. You don't want to report it, then don't. Anyone else wants to continue please feel free to do so. I've gotta get some popcorn and watch this goes on if it does go on. Anyone can tell me where can I find a "eating popcorn" post icon? Thanks in advance!

[jsnearline 2]

The horse is DEAD people!!!

[NickD 202]

It wasn't easy explaining to my why if have zillions of speed limit signs plastered all over the place when she first came here, coming from a country with terrible roads and zero speed limit signs. Can't even convince myself of that when on an interstate, have to poke along at 55 mph, and maybe up to 65 mph if far from the nearest dinky little town. But she asked about all those cars with the flashing red and blue lights stopped along the side of the road. They sure aren't protecting people, issuing speeding tickets instead. Quite a racket in this country with speed traps, and if you are driving on a lonely dead country road, can bet your last buck there is a cop hidden at the bottom waiting to give you a ticket especially on a very steep hill. We also happened by our court house with over 200 people in line waiting to pay fines. Just said, that is a perfect example of Homeland Security where just about every small town in WI had the police force more than doubled. All they are good for is issuing tickets, and mainly for speeding.

But she was a good girl and managed to get through USC without a ticket. But she did get stopped two weeks ago for doing 24 in a 20 mph speed zone, use to be a 35, then a 25, now a 20, if they keep on dropping the speed limits, we will be driving backwards. So why aren't the people bitching about this? Why so many speed traps, and if you are even stopped with a burnt out useless sidelamp that most cars don't even have, they can search your vehicle for drugs, or your money as 80% of all of our cash is drug tainted. Fortunately, her officer just told her to slow down but only doing four miles over the limit, but never issued a ticket. But that is how ridiculous are laws have become.

No compromise if you are driving a hot sports car that can go from 60 to zero in under 90 feet and going just a couple of mph over the limit. Now a fully loaded 18 wheeler would take over 500 feet to stop at the same speed and do a hell of a lot of damage in between, but 55 means 55, no exceptions. Who makes these laws? And why isn't the majority of Americans complaining about this? Been driving so long, can smell a cop a mile away and well aware of their hiding places, but have given up and set the cruise at 55.

But here is the ironic thing, we live in a society that demands you be on time, work, school, and especially the USCIS, yep, had to cheat a little with unexpected accidents, detours, and unreported work construction. Even though the bastards will make you wait 3 hours, already happened to us, if you are one second late for your appointed time, can reject you.

[KyngSilva 0]

Rigoletto my friend,

Firstly I work with the PD here so, speeding in Minnesota is an offense. Regardless of what you think or how you interpret the question, it's an offense. Plain and simple. Might not be an offense where you come from, but it is an offense here. The question relates to both State and Federal. I have not assumed anything. If you apply for ANY federal job you are required to put down every bit of information, every time a cop has stopped you, regardless of the reason. Same applies to your N-400. They are Federal application and failure to report the smallest details can make your application null and void. Which is determined by the person reviewing your documents. Goes back to the point of judging your moral character, not the offense that was committed unless it was capital murder. I know my state statues. I sit for 3.5 hrs studying them every other day. Secondly I did not assume that a traffic citation is a misdemeanor, I said it was a petty misdemeanor. Big difference here in Minnesota.

Edited April 21, 2009 by KyngSilva

[NickD 202]

20 mph over the limit here in WI, they will take your license away, no if's and's or but's. I won't even own a vehicle unless it has cruise control, very easy to creep up, hour after hour.

[Rigoletto 0]

Rigoletto my friend,

Firstly I work with the PD here so, speeding in Minnesota is an offense. Regardless of what you think or how you interpret the question, it's an offense. Plain and simple. Might not be an offense where you come from, but it is an offense here. The question relates to both State and Federal. I have not assumed anything. If you apply for ANY federal job you are required to put down every bit of information, every time a cop has stopped you, regardless of the reason. Same applies to your N-400. They are Federal application and failure to report the smallest details can make your application null and void. Which is determined by the person reviewing your documents. Goes back to the point of judging your moral character, not the offense that was committed unless it was capital murder. I know my state statues. I sit for 3.5 hrs studying them every other day. Secondly I did not assume that a traffic citation is a misdemeanor, I said it was a petty misdemeanor. Big difference here in Minnesota.

Your analysis should start with the definitions under Title 18 of U.S.C.

Again, don't confuse the issues - we are dealing with the question at hand - not the questions in other federal job applications. I work at

a federal district court and have had to fill out such forms. The questions are more broadly phrased.

Incidentally, we have a lot of police officers coming through here - some know the law, and others don't. But all claim that they do.