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Death of Petitioner before Green Card

#1 TBoneTX

TBoneTX

    Among the 99.44% HOSED at the Guayaquil consulate



Posted 27 January 2009 - 01:47 AM

Hypothetical scenarios, posed out of curiosity:

1. K-1 recipient enters U.S., and marries and files for AOS within the first 90 days. U.S. spouse dies before AOS interview. Does the widowed survivor have to return to home country within 30 days?

2. K-1 recipient enters U.S., and marries and files for AOS within the first 90 days. AOS application is transferred to CSC; there is no AOS interview; 2-year green card arrives in mail; but the U.S. spouse has died after the filing for AOS. What happens to the widowed survivor, immediately and long-term?

If more information is needed before meaningful answers can be given, I can expand the hypothetical scenarios, or respondents can talk about varying circumstances. Thanks, si man.

Edited by TBoneTX, 27 January 2009 - 01:49 AM.

  • 0
06-04-2007 = TSC stamps postal return-receipt for I-129f.
06-11-2007 = NOA1 date (unknown to me).
07-20-2007 = Phoned Immigration Officer; got WAC#; where's NOA1?
09-25-2007 = Touch (first-ever).
09-28-2007 = NOA1, 23 days after their 45-day promise to send it (grrrr).
10-20 & 11-14-2007 = Phoned ImmOffs; "still pending."
12-11-2007 = 180 days; file is "between workstations, may be early Jan."; touches 12/11 & 12/12.
12-18-2007 = Call; file is with Division 9 ofcr. (bckgrnd check); e-prompt to shake it; touch.
12-19-2007 = NOA2 by e-mail & web, dated 12-18-07 (187 days; 201 per VJ); in mail 12/24/07.
01-09-2008 = File from USCIS to NVC, 1-4-08; NVC creates file, 1/15/08; to consulate 1/16/08.
01-23-2008 = Consulate gets file; outdated Packet 4 mailed to fiancee 1/27/08; rec'd 3/3/08.
04-29-2008 = Fiancee's 4-min. consular interview, 8:30 a.m.; much evidence brought but not allowed to be presented (consul: "More proof! Second interview! Bring your fiance!").
05-05-2008 = Infuriating $12 call to non-English-speaking consulate appointment-setter.
05-06-2008 = Better $12 call to English-speaker; "joint" interview date 6/30/08 (my selection).
06-30-2008 = Stokes Interrogations w/Ecuadorian (not USC); "wait 2 weeks; we'll mail her."
07-2008 = Daily calls to DOS: "currently processing"; 8/05 = Phoned consulate, got Section Chief; wrote him.
08-07-08 = E-mail from consulate, promising to issue visa "as soon as we get her passport" (on 8/12, per DHL).
08-27-08 = Phoned consulate (they "couldn't find" our file); visa DHL'd 8/28; in hand 9/1; through POE on 10/9 with NO hassles(!).

#2 Dakine

Dakine

    BIG crab/Anaka



Posted 27 January 2009 - 02:18 AM

QUOTE (TBoneTX @ Jan 26 2009, 08:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hypothetical scenarios, posed out of curiosity:

1. K-1 recipient enters U.S., and marries and files for AOS within the first 90 days. U.S. spouse dies before AOS interview. Does the widowed survivor have to return to home country within 30 days?

2. K-1 recipient enters U.S., and marries and files for AOS within the first 90 days. AOS application is transferred to CSC; there is no AOS interview; 2-year green card arrives in mail; but the U.S. spouse has died after the filing for AOS. What happens to the widowed survivor, immediately and long-term?

If more information is needed before meaningful answers can be given, I can expand the hypothetical scenarios, or respondents can talk about varying circumstances. Thanks, si man.

1. Yep!
2. May get away with it until they have to remove conditions and then they will be "toasted".

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K1 denied, K3/K4, CR-1/CR-2, AOS, ROC, Adoption, US citizenship and dual citizenship
!! ALL PAU!

#3 Teacher Mark

Teacher Mark

    Star Member



Posted 27 January 2009 - 04:53 AM

Here's a 60 Minutes segment on real life scenarios:

http://www.cbsnews.c...ce=search_video

and the VJ discussion:

http://www.visajourn...howtopic=163721

Edited by Joe Six-Pack, 27 January 2009 - 04:55 AM.

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#4 TBoneTX

TBoneTX

    Among the 99.44% HOSED at the Guayaquil consulate



Posted 27 January 2009 - 12:24 PM

Thanks for the URLs, si man -- interesting. Sadly, the VJ discussion went badly off-topic, and, as stated, the 60 Minutes piece seemed vague regarding what the situation of the widows actually was. Would appreciate a definitive citation of the rules, si man.
  • 0
06-04-2007 = TSC stamps postal return-receipt for I-129f.
06-11-2007 = NOA1 date (unknown to me).
07-20-2007 = Phoned Immigration Officer; got WAC#; where's NOA1?
09-25-2007 = Touch (first-ever).
09-28-2007 = NOA1, 23 days after their 45-day promise to send it (grrrr).
10-20 & 11-14-2007 = Phoned ImmOffs; "still pending."
12-11-2007 = 180 days; file is "between workstations, may be early Jan."; touches 12/11 & 12/12.
12-18-2007 = Call; file is with Division 9 ofcr. (bckgrnd check); e-prompt to shake it; touch.
12-19-2007 = NOA2 by e-mail & web, dated 12-18-07 (187 days; 201 per VJ); in mail 12/24/07.
01-09-2008 = File from USCIS to NVC, 1-4-08; NVC creates file, 1/15/08; to consulate 1/16/08.
01-23-2008 = Consulate gets file; outdated Packet 4 mailed to fiancee 1/27/08; rec'd 3/3/08.
04-29-2008 = Fiancee's 4-min. consular interview, 8:30 a.m.; much evidence brought but not allowed to be presented (consul: "More proof! Second interview! Bring your fiance!").
05-05-2008 = Infuriating $12 call to non-English-speaking consulate appointment-setter.
05-06-2008 = Better $12 call to English-speaker; "joint" interview date 6/30/08 (my selection).
06-30-2008 = Stokes Interrogations w/Ecuadorian (not USC); "wait 2 weeks; we'll mail her."
07-2008 = Daily calls to DOS: "currently processing"; 8/05 = Phoned consulate, got Section Chief; wrote him.
08-07-08 = E-mail from consulate, promising to issue visa "as soon as we get her passport" (on 8/12, per DHL).
08-27-08 = Phoned consulate (they "couldn't find" our file); visa DHL'd 8/28; in hand 9/1; through POE on 10/9 with NO hassles(!).

#5 Teacher Mark

Teacher Mark

    Star Member



Posted 27 January 2009 - 12:38 PM

QUOTE (TBoneTX @ Jan 27 2009, 12:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thanks for the URLs, si man -- interesting. Sadly, the VJ discussion went badly off-topic, and, as stated, the 60 Minutes piece seemed vague regarding what the situation of the widows actually was. Would appreciate a definitive citation of the rules, si man.


Did you actually watch that segment? Sadly, I don't think you did. It laid the USCIS's postion out very nicely. Death of USC = Deportation of Widow (dependent of where they are in the process).

Edited by Joe Six-Pack, 27 January 2009 - 12:43 PM.

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#6 Teacher Mark

Teacher Mark

    Star Member



Posted 27 January 2009 - 12:46 PM

QUOTE (Joe Six-Pack @ Jan 27 2009, 12:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (TBoneTX @ Jan 27 2009, 12:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thanks for the URLs, si man -- interesting. Sadly, the VJ discussion went badly off-topic, and, as stated, the 60 Minutes piece seemed vague regarding what the situation of the widows actually was. Would appreciate a definitive citation of the rules, si man.


Did you actually watch that segment? Sadly, I don't think you did. It laid the USCIS's postion out very nicely. Death of USC = Deportation of Widow (dependent of where they are in the process).


  • 0

#7 Teacher Mark

Teacher Mark

    Star Member



Posted 27 January 2009 - 12:52 PM

I apologize for the tone. I misread your response and couldn't edit. As it is this subject, namely USCIS's position, pisses me off. A few years ago there was a guy in California who died trying to save 2 kids that were caught in a riptide. What does the Government want to do? Deport the wife. Unbelievable. I'll try to find something more definitive later.
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#8 TBoneTX

TBoneTX

    Among the 99.44% HOSED at the Guayaquil consulate



Posted 28 January 2009 - 12:51 AM

QUOTE (Joe Six-Pack @ Jan 27 2009, 11:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I apologize for the tone. I misread your response and couldn't edit. As it is this subject, namely USCIS's position, pisses me off. A few years ago there was a guy in California who died trying to save 2 kids that were caught in a riptide. What does the Government want to do? Deport the wife. Unbelievable. I'll try to find something more definitive later.
No problem at all, si man. I appreciate your interest, and also certainly your righteous passion regarding these outrages. Why the Feds can't concentrate on the illegals is beyond (more than just) me, but the fact remains that the lawful-but-not-yet-legal end up bearing the brunt of governmental and the public's anger over illegal immigration.

  • 0
06-04-2007 = TSC stamps postal return-receipt for I-129f.
06-11-2007 = NOA1 date (unknown to me).
07-20-2007 = Phoned Immigration Officer; got WAC#; where's NOA1?
09-25-2007 = Touch (first-ever).
09-28-2007 = NOA1, 23 days after their 45-day promise to send it (grrrr).
10-20 & 11-14-2007 = Phoned ImmOffs; "still pending."
12-11-2007 = 180 days; file is "between workstations, may be early Jan."; touches 12/11 & 12/12.
12-18-2007 = Call; file is with Division 9 ofcr. (bckgrnd check); e-prompt to shake it; touch.
12-19-2007 = NOA2 by e-mail & web, dated 12-18-07 (187 days; 201 per VJ); in mail 12/24/07.
01-09-2008 = File from USCIS to NVC, 1-4-08; NVC creates file, 1/15/08; to consulate 1/16/08.
01-23-2008 = Consulate gets file; outdated Packet 4 mailed to fiancee 1/27/08; rec'd 3/3/08.
04-29-2008 = Fiancee's 4-min. consular interview, 8:30 a.m.; much evidence brought but not allowed to be presented (consul: "More proof! Second interview! Bring your fiance!").
05-05-2008 = Infuriating $12 call to non-English-speaking consulate appointment-setter.
05-06-2008 = Better $12 call to English-speaker; "joint" interview date 6/30/08 (my selection).
06-30-2008 = Stokes Interrogations w/Ecuadorian (not USC); "wait 2 weeks; we'll mail her."
07-2008 = Daily calls to DOS: "currently processing"; 8/05 = Phoned consulate, got Section Chief; wrote him.
08-07-08 = E-mail from consulate, promising to issue visa "as soon as we get her passport" (on 8/12, per DHL).
08-27-08 = Phoned consulate (they "couldn't find" our file); visa DHL'd 8/28; in hand 9/1; through POE on 10/9 with NO hassles(!).

#9 Sinergy

Sinergy

    My kids are smarter than most adults!



Posted 28 January 2009 - 05:20 PM

Your not planning to kill yourself are you? tongue.gif
  • 0
Posted ImagePosted Image
"VJ Timelines are only an estimate, they are not actual approval dates! They only reflect VJ members. VJ Timelines do not include the thousands of applicants who do not use VJ"
IF YOU ARE NEW TO THE SITE, PLEASE READ THE GUIDES BEFORE ASKING ALOT OF QUESTIONS. THE GUIDES ARE VERY HELPFUL AND WILL SAVE YOU ALOT OF TIME!

#10 TBoneTX

TBoneTX

    Among the 99.44% HOSED at the Guayaquil consulate



Posted 29 January 2009 - 12:29 AM

QUOTE (Sinergy @ Jan 28 2009, 04:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Your not planning to kill yourself are you? tongue.gif
(Ahem) "The most dangerous food is Wedding Cake," si man. (Ahem) "Socrates died from an overdose of Wedlock," si man. Only problem around here is that I'm losing the bihemispheric War of Administering & Receiving Unexpected Wedgies, oof man.

Seriously, would still appreciate citations regarding the original questions, si man.

Edited by TBoneTX, 29 January 2009 - 12:30 AM.

  • 0
06-04-2007 = TSC stamps postal return-receipt for I-129f.
06-11-2007 = NOA1 date (unknown to me).
07-20-2007 = Phoned Immigration Officer; got WAC#; where's NOA1?
09-25-2007 = Touch (first-ever).
09-28-2007 = NOA1, 23 days after their 45-day promise to send it (grrrr).
10-20 & 11-14-2007 = Phoned ImmOffs; "still pending."
12-11-2007 = 180 days; file is "between workstations, may be early Jan."; touches 12/11 & 12/12.
12-18-2007 = Call; file is with Division 9 ofcr. (bckgrnd check); e-prompt to shake it; touch.
12-19-2007 = NOA2 by e-mail & web, dated 12-18-07 (187 days; 201 per VJ); in mail 12/24/07.
01-09-2008 = File from USCIS to NVC, 1-4-08; NVC creates file, 1/15/08; to consulate 1/16/08.
01-23-2008 = Consulate gets file; outdated Packet 4 mailed to fiancee 1/27/08; rec'd 3/3/08.
04-29-2008 = Fiancee's 4-min. consular interview, 8:30 a.m.; much evidence brought but not allowed to be presented (consul: "More proof! Second interview! Bring your fiance!").
05-05-2008 = Infuriating $12 call to non-English-speaking consulate appointment-setter.
05-06-2008 = Better $12 call to English-speaker; "joint" interview date 6/30/08 (my selection).
06-30-2008 = Stokes Interrogations w/Ecuadorian (not USC); "wait 2 weeks; we'll mail her."
07-2008 = Daily calls to DOS: "currently processing"; 8/05 = Phoned consulate, got Section Chief; wrote him.
08-07-08 = E-mail from consulate, promising to issue visa "as soon as we get her passport" (on 8/12, per DHL).
08-27-08 = Phoned consulate (they "couldn't find" our file); visa DHL'd 8/28; in hand 9/1; through POE on 10/9 with NO hassles(!).

#11 Teacher Mark

Teacher Mark

    Star Member



Posted 29 January 2009 - 06:30 AM

Here's the USCIS guidelines (I think). It's regarding Affidavits of Support, but I think it's the right area. Hit Ctrl F and enter death:

http://www.uscis.gov...c60f144e8aeb8ce

Here's another case I found online. I think it covers some of what you are asking. It is from 2004 however. I won't post the whole article, but here's the link:

http://community.sea...mp;slug=rubi01m

Relevant portion:

2-year green card

The procedures by which an American citizen and a foreign-born spouse can petition for permanent residency were established by the Immigration and Naturalization Act of 1952.

Contrary to what many believe, the marriage does not make permanent residency automatic.

The foreign-born spouse qualifies for a conditional green card that is good for two years. At the end of that period, the couple must return to have the conditions removed.

Five decades ago, the process was simple and quick, Renison said. "Many of these cases were adjudicated [decided upon] the same day."

It wasn't until 1999 that Congress made allowances for the death of a spouse. Widows and widowers of U.S. citizens could then self-petition for a green card.

But concerns about possible marriage fraud prompted lawmakers to require couples to have been married at least two years before the U.S. citizen spouse's death.

"It's a somewhat arbitrary cutoff," Rubi Dobrenz's Seattle attorney, Bart Stroupe, said of the two-year rule.

"In some cases, like Rubi's, it creates a hardship. There are procedures that the immigration service uses to judge the bona fides of a marriage — even if it's a brief marriage."

Over the years, there have been exceptions to the two-year rule: Spouses of Sept. 11 victims were granted waivers, as have widows or widowers of active-duty military personnel killed in combat.

In 2000, Sen. Diane Feinstein, D-Calif., won congressional approval of a bill written on behalf of a widow from Thailand whose husband was killed in a car crash near their home in Vancouver, Wash.

But a bill in Congress that would grant waivers to people like Rubi Dobrenz, assuming they can prove their marriage was legitimate, has been stalled.

"There's an awareness the problem exists," Renison said. "Congress doesn't want to be seen to be deporting 9/11 widows and widows of servicemen.

"But we should cover everybody if we will cover anyone in this group of people whom I believe everyone will agree is deserving of some sort of humane consideration."

Dobrenz, who first came to the U.S. in 1997, is hanging her hopes on a section of the law reserved for victims of domestic violence — the Violence Against Women Act.

In her case now pending before an immigration judge, Stroupe makes the argument that despite Al Dobrenz's love for his wife, his suicide was an extreme act of cruelty.

"In all the litigation, no one has questioned that Al and Rubi loved each other, that he wrote a will that left everything to her, that they had joint bank accounts, real estate ... that they had joined their lives like married people do," Stroupe said.

Edited by Joe Six-Pack, 29 January 2009 - 06:33 AM.

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#12 Teacher Mark

Teacher Mark

    Star Member



Posted 29 January 2009 - 06:50 AM

Here's a link to the Adjudicator's Field Manual - Redacted Public Version.

http://www.uscis.gov...DocView/afmid/1


At the bottom of the page it says:

AD 00-05 (05/14/04) Chapter 21.5(g)(1) - Clarifies issues relating to the automatic revocation of visa petitions upon the death of the petitioner, the discretionary authority not to revoke the petition, and the effect of the Family Sponsor Immigration Act.

I can't find anything other than that though. No links, Googlefoo exhausted, major headache after reading this.

My final verdict after reading all of this is: If you have a temporary 2 year green card, and the USC dies, you stand a good chance of being deported. Spouses of Active Duty Soldiers appear to be exempt, as do spouses of 9/11 victims.

Edited by Joe Six-Pack, 29 January 2009 - 06:55 AM.

  • 0

#13 *JG*

*JG*

    Future 2010 Fantasy Baseball Queen!!!!


  • Group: Members
  • Joined: 22 May 2006
  • City:St. Louis, MO
  • Country: Jamaica



Posted 29 January 2009 - 07:06 AM

QUOTE (Sinergy @ Jan 28 2009, 04:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Your not planning to kill yourself are you? tongue.gif



ha ha.....that's what I was thinking.

Did you know someone this happened to, OP?
  • 0
Life's just a crazy ride on a run away train
You can't go back for what you've missed
So make it count, hold on tight find a way to make it right
You only get one trip
So make it good, make it last 'cause it all flies by so fast
You only get one trip

#14 TBoneTX

TBoneTX

    Among the 99.44% HOSED at the Guayaquil consulate



Posted 29 January 2009 - 11:41 AM

QUOTE (Jomo's girl @ Jan 29 2009, 06:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Did you know someone this happened to, OP?
Nope; just curious. This IS an issue that potentially affects many, though, si man.

MANY thanks to the majorly ache-heading Joe Six-Pack for his intrepid research, which will be helpful to more people than just me, si man.

  • 0
06-04-2007 = TSC stamps postal return-receipt for I-129f.
06-11-2007 = NOA1 date (unknown to me).
07-20-2007 = Phoned Immigration Officer; got WAC#; where's NOA1?
09-25-2007 = Touch (first-ever).
09-28-2007 = NOA1, 23 days after their 45-day promise to send it (grrrr).
10-20 & 11-14-2007 = Phoned ImmOffs; "still pending."
12-11-2007 = 180 days; file is "between workstations, may be early Jan."; touches 12/11 & 12/12.
12-18-2007 = Call; file is with Division 9 ofcr. (bckgrnd check); e-prompt to shake it; touch.
12-19-2007 = NOA2 by e-mail & web, dated 12-18-07 (187 days; 201 per VJ); in mail 12/24/07.
01-09-2008 = File from USCIS to NVC, 1-4-08; NVC creates file, 1/15/08; to consulate 1/16/08.
01-23-2008 = Consulate gets file; outdated Packet 4 mailed to fiancee 1/27/08; rec'd 3/3/08.
04-29-2008 = Fiancee's 4-min. consular interview, 8:30 a.m.; much evidence brought but not allowed to be presented (consul: "More proof! Second interview! Bring your fiance!").
05-05-2008 = Infuriating $12 call to non-English-speaking consulate appointment-setter.
05-06-2008 = Better $12 call to English-speaker; "joint" interview date 6/30/08 (my selection).
06-30-2008 = Stokes Interrogations w/Ecuadorian (not USC); "wait 2 weeks; we'll mail her."
07-2008 = Daily calls to DOS: "currently processing"; 8/05 = Phoned consulate, got Section Chief; wrote him.
08-07-08 = E-mail from consulate, promising to issue visa "as soon as we get her passport" (on 8/12, per DHL).
08-27-08 = Phoned consulate (they "couldn't find" our file); visa DHL'd 8/28; in hand 9/1; through POE on 10/9 with NO hassles(!).

#15 Teacher Mark

Teacher Mark

    Star Member



Posted 29 January 2009 - 12:31 PM

QUOTE (TBoneTX @ Jan 29 2009, 11:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Jomo's girl @ Jan 29 2009, 06:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Did you know someone this happened to, OP?
Nope; just curious. This IS an issue that potentially affects many, though, si man.

MANY thanks to the majorly ache-heading Joe Six-Pack for his intrepid research, which will be helpful to more people than just me, si man.


No problem T Bone. That's how I look at it too.

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