I can honestly say I have not had more than a couple of PMs about anyone's repeated behaviour sent to me. Individuals, yes, trolls, yes, spam, yes, but over and over regarding certain members? No. It's mentioned in threads, of course, it's hinted at all the time, but unless someone actually sends me examples of that member's behaviour and backs it up so I can act, them I can't do much.

Making insinuations about people doesn't cut it, I'm afraid, send me cold, hard facts and then I'll do something.

Ok.

I agree. Maybe we can add a smiley with a mirror?

A little personal responsibility would be nice as well, to make the community welcoming to everyone. We should all be adults here, or at least over 18. Why can't we show common courtesy to each other when posting rather than requireing a moderator to tell us we've misbehaved like we are children? It's a frustrating process as it is, this place is supposed to be a supportive eye in the storm.

I agree with you to a point. I have strong opinions but respect that others have strong opinions as well. I don't try to make others agree with me or "rally" agreement with me on a board. I also don't feel state my opinion as fact or feel the need to belittle someone else's opinion as silly or irrelevant because I don't agree. It silences discussion. And that's what I consider bullying.

I state how I feel clearly on the boards where it occurs and then if I don't feel comfortable that they "get it" I leave. And I would state to what Mags posted, that I've never PM'd a moderator cause it seems ridiculous to me that people can't be responsible for their own personal behavior on the board. I don't think of the moderators as babysitters who I should go to complain because someone isn't "playing nice". You can't force people to be courteous and respectful. I just move on rather than feel abused or belittled, must less disrespected.

Well said. We need your voice around here more.

I totally agree with you here. I was very vocal in the past for not wanting mods here. (Saying that, I think E made a perfect choice with the mods he did choose). I don't really think a community of our sort needs mods as teachers, referees, etc. We are all adults...and we should all be able to deal with the fact that there's a plethora of different personalities here, and we're not all going to get along all the time. Yet, at the same time, if this is really going to be an issue where people are saying that they feel so 'bullied' by a member that they are going to stop posting, well then a mod could be helpful in rectifying that. Me personally, if someone insults me, I would rather it stay up than be removed. If someone were to attack me online, I could easily brush it off because it really doesn't matter to me. But eh, I guess we're all different.

I just feel that instead of threads like this where everyone skirts around something, it'd be better to just go to the mods. I totally agree with Mags....some people just like to complain and not do anything proactive about it. In Steven's case, (the way I see it in this instance) he's all for wanting members not to get their feelings hurt, but yet he totally gave you a pat on the back when you responded to me. Which makes me go hrmm....cos obviously there was a miscommunication, and instead of diffusing it, he gave you a 'way to go!'. But if he were truly interested in making sure no one gets upset...why not just say 'hey Bassi, I think she was talking to me'

Stina....no offense taken, btw! Thank you for your opinion. I am quite opinionated, so no secret there! I wasn't captain of the debate team for nothing, lol.

See that's a curious comment right there. Did you feel abused, belittled, or disrespected when you thought I was talking to you the first time here?

Cos I think that was a perfect example of how text is easily misunderstood at times....you felt 'hit by a train for voicing your opinion' when I wasn't even talking to you.

So where's the line of responsibility? Towards the supposed 'bullies' or toward the people who just MIGHT be misinterpreting what is said?

Lisa, bullying isn't about hurting someone's feelings ...it's about intimidation, ridicule, and belittling as a form of domination. Remember in school, playing king of the hill? Or how about the bully who'd push around smaller or less agressive kids for their amusement, to boost their ego. Typically, a bully can't socialize with others without an incessant need to dominate, and in the case of internet forums - they set out to ridicule other's for what they posted than actually adding anything productive to the discussion.


Here's from another internet site on internet forums:


People who bully are adept at creating conflict between those who would otherwise pool negative information about them. The method of creating conflict is provocation which bullies delight in because they know they can always coerce at least one person to respond in a manner which can then be distorted and used to further flame and inflame people. And so it goes on. The bully then sits back and gains gratification from seeing others engage in destructive behaviour towards each other.

Many serial bullies are also serial attention-seekers. More than anything else they want attention. It doesn't matter what type of attention they get, positive or negative, as long as they can provoke someone into paying them attention. It's like a 2-year-old child throwing a tantrum to get attention from a parent. The best way to treat bullies is to refuse to respond and to refuse to engage them - which they really hate. In other words, do not reply to their postings, and on forums carry on posting without reference to their postings as if they didn't exist. In other words, treat nobodies as nobodies.

http://www.bullyonline.org/related/cyber.htm

i had to clean my monitor after reading that

As was stated in another post, at what point do you also look at yourself? (which is ultimately the only thing you have control of) If it appears to be overly aggressive to more than one person, or more than one person "misinterprets" your posts....maybe you should put more thought into the wording of your posts so that they more appropriately convey your intent.

So.....I posted a message on another forum and was immediately attacked for the message because the person saw my post come after their post and thought it was referring to them. But the reaction was aggressive and insulting. I was very confused and had to go back and re-read for a couple of pages to figure out what happened to cause me to upset someone. I responded that I wasn't talking to that person, and then was told that I "need to learn how to post correctly and use the quote buttons more often". Now, granted, she was the only person on the forum who reacted that way and "misinterpreted" my post. But I now use the quote button incessantly. I also told her that I don't expect the be addressed like I'm her child unless she's willing to send me checks to pay my support. And that was the end of that. But, how much of that unnecessary drama is the average person willing to deal with. I'm knee deep in this process. More like drowning in it really and my stress levels related to waiting for my fiance to come over here is my focus. I'm not interested in having regular battles on my "support" forum. That's why I move on.

I have never actually seen a real "Troll" at VJ. I've seen strongly opinionated people, I've seen pissed off people, I've seen total bitches/jerks, but I haven't really seen a troll.

Ya wanna see a troll? I mean a good, old-fashioned trolling? Check out these screenshots from a place I used to know once upon a time...
(WARNING: "Naughty" Language)

Screenshot 1

Screenshot 2

Screenshot 3

Screenshot 4

THAT is trolling. Everything on VJ has been mild in comparison. This, by the way, is a small example of HIMEOBS, which Mags mentioned earlier.

Yup, if HIMEOBS get you in their clutches there is nothing you can do; they will not stop until they have either taken over the site or destroyed it. They are proxy IP specialists and you can not ban them, however hard you try. Now THAT is trolling. What we get here is child's play, really.

I agree with this point from the author of the article in the OP ....

Beware of these people (bullies) and watch out for them because they can be a lot more trouble in the long run than isolated trolls running loose.

Sometimes you just need an excellent troll to combat an established forum bully.

A woman posted a question asking for help. When she returned, her post was under a cruel attack by other forum users trying to destroy her reputation, her business and her ambition. Unusual? Not at all.

The truth is, personal attacks happen on the Internet forums every day. Thousands of forum users suffer from verbal abuse each time they are trying to ask for advice. Many times you don't care about such episodes. Until it happens to you. And now your name or business is under a threat.

Why do people attack on forums? Many times it is because they have a strong opinion about a subject, and want it to be heard. But it only takes one such post to have others jump in and turn an innocent question into an ugly war that is very difficult to stop.

There is a great diversity of views online - many times I am surprised how different people really are in tastes, opinions and reaction! The one reason for debates turning into flame wars is that many people enter a discussion ONLY when they disagree and want to express their opinion. Many people will find a forum boring if everyone agrees. Controversial forums are much more fun and attractive to inquisitive minds of the online users.

Can anyone be attacked on the forum? Absolutely!

When I did a search on the Internet looking for articles on the subject of "flame wars", I found hundreds of forum messages instead. People are trying to fight flame wars. They complain and ask others to stop. Yet, no solution has been found.

Flaming does not only occur on forums. Discussion groups have their own problem - "trolls", a common term for a newsgroup bully. Most newsgroups moderators recommend ignoring trolls who once in a while spoil the discussion with their irellevant and abusive messages.

Sadly, people want "blood". Someone even created a discussion group called alt.flame. It is a forum for every bully that you ever met in your school and if you decide to join, you are certainly not going to be called a "friend". Prepare to be crushed and humiliated. This group has been specifically created for flame wars and does not claim to be intellectual or informative.

Many forum users agree that a lot of good information and solid advice is missed due to the misrepresentation. You start paying attention to the WAY it is written instead of WHAT it actually says.

The Pew Research Center in their December 1998 survey showed that 45% of online users communicate with other people through online forums, discussion lists and chat groups. 5% of them post every day, and 17% post several times a week.

Online communication has turned our world around by allowing people of all cultures, abilities and means to feel equal and freely express their views. Yet it let out those who thrive on anonymity, abuse and pain.

Are There Solutions?

While there no fool-proof solutions have been found, there are ways to stop or avoid a flame war.

1.In my interview with Dave Brzegowski who is handling abuse reports for Epix Internet Services, I found out that you may report such an attack to the ISP (Internet Service Provider) of the attacker which you can identify by their e-mail address. Such incidents are thoroughly investigated before any action takes place.

2. One way to minimize the number of such attacks is to ask users to register. Every user will need his own ID and password to be able to post. Forum owners, however, are worried that traffic to their web site will drop because people don't like to go through the registration process.

3. If forum owners are too busy to keep an eye on their forums, a good moderator is a solution. Of course, not too many people are willing to volunteer their time moderating forums, but it is a good chance for them to get their names out, and develop a relationship with their potential customers.

4. Do you know if you are a "forum bully?" There is a good chance that you don't realize that your posts might make others feel angry and upset. The fact is, you don't really feel that a message sounds harsh until it is directed toward you. So before you press "Send", read what you wrote. Use a lot of smiley faces (:-). Be careful how you phrase things and capitalize your words. Try to sound helpful rather than criticizing. State facts rather than emotions.

5. Moderators agree that they are too busy to catch every such attack. It is also hard to draw the line between an attack and a strongly opinionated message. Who should decide? Moderators. The fairness of moderators, though, is totally subjective. Some forum users expressed an opinion that moderators should be voted in and dismissed publicly. If the majority agrees that this moderator is not doing a good job of moderating and being objective while removing attacks on others, he or she should be replaced by someone who is known to be fair. Of course, all of the above is completely up to the forum owner.

6. Some users expressed their willingness to pay an annual fee to be a member of a well-moderated board. When people are paying a fee, forum owners and moderators will feel more obligated to control its atmosphere. A forum should provide a true value to justify the fee, though. If I had to choose, I would probably pick two such forums out of 20 that I visit weekly.

7. Another way to control a forum is to have strict banning rules. After all, if you post an advertisement of your company, the post will be immediately removed and you could lose the privileges to post there ever again. Yet when you are attacked, the attacker is not banned. May be if everyone knew the penalty for attacking or starting a flame war is harsh, there would be less abuse.

http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2001/08/...he-verbal-abuse

I think we've got your point, Steven. Most people here know exactly what bullies and trolls are like, they don't need it broken down into tiny pieces for them to understand it, give them some credit.

LaL and I are completely capable of dealing with this kind of stuff too.

No you aren't. You need my superpowers.

What have you got then super power wise? Might be interested. I've always wanted to fly or freeze time. Got any of that to spare?

What have you got then super power wise? Might be interested. I've always wanted to fly or freeze time. Got any of that to spare?

I can make bullies cry.

That'll work.

Pyscho babble BS! VJ has TONS of 'bullies".. I see them posting every day. They are not some figment of a person's imagination. We aren't taking about personalities that sync (or not) with any given member. Rather, bullies are defined by their consistant behavior as a poster -not individual interpretation of those posts by readers.

As far as 'being all adults here', that would require the exercise of normal, socially accepted behavior. Most do, some don't. Neither trolls nor Bullies would meet that definition in any venue - VJ included.

Regarding "If that person is iyo out of line...report that person and let admin deal with it" - well, there's the rub and the reason we have so much discord here: an unwillingness of the admin staff to moderate and call out the trolls and bullies. The result??? New members who are the natural future and life blood of VJ either quickly become silent readers and don't post or worse, simply choose to leave.

-Samby

[quote name='L

You're smoking crack, right?
Are you REALLY so sure about that?

Let me tell you something.... you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

One of the moderators - Mags - temp. banned her own husband - me - for getting in someone's face. Does that sound like an unwillingness to call out trolls and bullies? The mods can't deal with it if you don't tell them. We have TWO moderators for this entire freaking board. How in the hell do you expect them to keep up with everything? I don't know about Lal, but Mags has a life outside of VJ, and doesn't sit here at the computer all day just waiting for some fun troll action to pop up.

Also, the mods are rather limited on what they can do. I know of a couple of people who shouldn't just have warnings and temp bans; they should be permanently IP banned due to their inability to interact with people in a non-combative, non-snarky way. The Mods can't do that, though. Too bad.

So, I suggest you just keep your ill-informed opinions to yourself when it comes to talking crap about my wife and Lal. If you think you could do a better job, start by trying to read half of every day's new posts. Let me know how that works out for ya.

I not only used the quote button, but said the name of the person to whom I was referring to.

I'm sorry you seem to be so stressed!

Bravo! I am so sick of everything being laid at the feet of the mods. They do a great job here.

No, I didn't want mods here, but the ones that are here now are the perfect people for the job and all they do is get sh!t on.

The mods here do a good job and it is a thankless one, I was very surprised actually when mods were introduced that they were made 'public', the job can be done without names attached to the job.

I have always liked and respected Mags and Lal, I think it is a shame that they have become targeted and criticised for things that are beyond their control.

I was tempted a few weeks back to post a poll esp for the mods actually, asking if the enjoyment of participating in VJ has changed since taking on the roll...

Unfortunately, I would say it absolutely has to dimish enjoyment since taking the roles of mods.....

hehe....I just spotted my bad spelling....of course mods don't roll...duh

This is ridiculous. While we're at it, why don't we bring up ######-stirrers?

Happens on EVERY forum, and is discussed on every forum.

You have the power to change your own environment. Report something to the mods or take something to PM if you feel you need to resolve something.

Are we in kindergarten or something?

I can't speak for LaL, but I don't think it has diminished it for me very much. I still interact on the boards the same way I used to do and I try to keep the mod personality separate from the member side; although when it comes to chocolate pudding it's hard to tell. Whether other members here can separate mod-me from member-me is their problem I guess.

hahaha, I didn't even notice it either!



It's official...I Lori


And Mags....glad to hear it's not diminished your enjoyment!

Gotta go show prop, peeps...be good!

Just curious...is anything ever done with the data from the praise/report member feature?

I usually just do a "report member" every two weeks to those people who I consider to be bullies and who I think detract from the site.

P.S. And no, I'm not in kindergarten. Those are exactly the kind of comments that are an attempt to bully people into clamming up, IMO.

We do use it, plus it gives us a very good idea of who is well received on the site and who isn't. So, keep on using it!

I'm in NO way a bully by any means. Just saying what I think. It's funny how threads like this have the most views, and seem to go on forever.

Is it so hard really? I mean, if you see a topic and you want to say something, say it. Be prepared that not everyone is going to agree with you, and have thick enough skin to take what you give.

Case in point, what you said to me. I didn't single anyone out, and said "we". Is this your attempt to clam me up? Curious.

I'm not offended by the way, you have a right to your opinion as do I.

Lisa -

When my report card comes back this term, can I get some gold stars please? My Mum says she'll take me to McDonald's if I've been good enough.

I mod on a few boards, on one in particular there is a karma system in place....it's amazing how quickly people watch what they say when those little boxes and hearts start disappearing

It's not my attempt to clam you up. That's usually how it works though - a bully says something antagonizing, and when someone calls them on it, the response is something like, "oh well, aren't you just antagonizing me then? so you're no better!" Saying "What? Are we in kindergarten?" is going to make a lot of people think twice before posting their opinion because they know that they're gonna get jumped on and called childish, etc. Shouldn't we able to discuss an issue without pre-emptive insults? Happens ALL the time in the political threads as well - insulting any people that hold a certain opinion before that opinion is even put forth. Who wants to jump in there when they've already been insulted before they've even opened their mouths?

BTW, I don't think that you're a bully. I was using that comment as an example of what creates a hostile atmosphere.

You're right, we're all big boys and girls, and we should all be able to handle ourselves on an internet forum. I just don't see what's so difficult about saying, "well, it seems that my comments are often interpreted as belittling an offensive, maybe that's something I could work on." Instead it seems to be a source of pride for people to tell it how it is, now matter how many people they tick off.

ETA: It seems that some always want the onus to be on the reader, and never on the poster. It should go both ways.

Hug a Mod Today-----------that's my bumper sticker.

Jackie

I understand what you're saying, I do. It's a shame that people feel they are being antagonized. I never said I was better than anyone else, we're just different. If someone feels they have to think twice before posting, then perhaps they should move on to another topic? Like I said before, if you DO decide to post, be prepared to have thick enough skin to hear the responses.

I haven't really seen a "hostile atmosphere" around here really. Opinions and people that really don't like each other, yes. That's going to happen ya know?

I agree that people "should" question themselves if something keeps coming up like that. But it's not for *me* to dictate to them. I know that if *I* repeatedly seemed to offend people, I would rethink my actions, after all, that's the only thing I'm accountable for.

To each his/her own is what I'm trying to say here. I like the diversity of this place, but that's me.

I did.... right before I walked out the door to leave for work.

You did.

I am hugless this week

Me too. *hugs LaL*

oooh virtual hugs! I'll take it!

V. important question for Mr. Mags....so when she banned you, did she do it virtually or did she physically prohibit you from posting for an allotted length of time?

Too funny!

My lesson from the past day or two is to STAY AWAY from Off Topic! I, like many, have very strong opinions about immigration, and know that they differ wildly from many of those who post on that forum. That's fine, and I really tried my best to express my perspective without making any personal swipes at those who differ in opinion, and I feel like I'm able to do that. However, I was shocked to see how people acted...even going so far as having side discussions not even related to the points at hand, but rather patting each other on the back agreeing on assumptions about what kind of person I am. Quite the nasty environment! And who needs more nasty in her life?

Excuse me?? Excuse YOU! Nope, Not smoking crack or anything else. Just calling it like I see and experience it every day! And that would be everyday that I DO read more than half of the posts on this forum, thank you very much! Sheesh! Some people's kids!

Sure moderators can't police everything. No Sh_t! Duh! And sure we all as community members have a responsibility. But I'm not the only one who has seen flames go on and on, sometimes with admin/mod inputs and nothing is done to curtail it. I am not the only one who has reported concerns (yes that's right - I do follow the process and report extreme examples to the admins) with not only no result, but not even a communique.

So, you can take all of your pent up attitude and spew it all day long. That wont change the basic facts.

Oh and since you want to throw down and duke it out here, I can see why you were banned. Hell, let's just come out of the gate blasting a load of BS from both barrells without having a clue what or who you are blasting at. Now, who is the one that doesnt know what the hell they are talking about?

-Samby

I have never received a PM from you about anything. A word to the wise, if you click the report button it ONLY goes to the Captain, who isn't online as much as LaL or I. If you see something that needs quick action then a PM to LaL or myself is probably the better option simply because one of us is around most of the time.

Fair enough. Thanks for that info about the limited use of the REPORT button. I will be sure to utilize PM in the future, per your point.

how do you do these things? I've never seen anything about praising members (though I can see the 'report' button no problem)