Trolls vs Internet bullies

I actually find that there are two classes of people who cause maximum trouble on forums. One is of course, the traditional "troll" who wreaks havoc by anti-social behaviour and by deliberately riling up forum members to get kicks out of it, causing havoc and bad blood in the process.

I think as admins, we need to realize that there is another group which I would term as "online bullies" or "internet bullies" who can become equally destructive in undermining communities.

These gentlemen/ladies differ from trolls in the sense that they are not anti-social, but they are an accepted and sometimes well-respected members who assume a sort of informal and unofficial leadership role. They use this position to intimidate and assert their views on newer and less established members and often push their weight around to mark territorial rights. They will generally try and behave properly, but subtly try and behave like moderators and preach about forum behaviour. They will also turn and insult people as they wish and surprisingly other forum members will turn a blind eye to them. They will usually "adopt" ownership of a single forum or a subforum of a board and hang out there frequently with their clan. (this feature is usually more common in larger forums)

These people are often the starting point of cliques because they can gather a group of yes-people around them in no time.

Beware of these people and watch out for them because they can be a lot more trouble in the long run than isolated trolls running loose.

Sometimes you just need an excellent troll to combat an established forum bully

Similarities between trolls and bullies:

1. Both trolls and bullies can cause enormous damage to a forum by their behaviour.

2. Both trolls and bullies usually have excellent communication skills using which they attack their opponents unmercifully.

3. Both trolls and bullies can be intimidating to any normal forum user.

4. Both trolls and bullies have the effect of creating bad blood.

5. Both trolls and bullies are hard to control without intervention right from the top - the forum administrator(s) or owner(s) because even moderators might find it hard to control them without support from others.

Differences

1. Trolls are usually isolated. They are generally short-lived in a forum. A person who signs up on a forum specifically to troll doesn't hang around in other parts of the forum and leaves as soon as the damage is done.

Bullies are more or less regular forum members who might have a huge post count and a following.

2. Trolls usually hit and run. A successful troll needs only a couple of posts in a single thread to turn it into a raging tornado.

Bullies stay on and intimidate other members by throwing their weight around and using their group of yes-people to lend force to their powerful attacks.

3. Trolls are usually identified for what they are.

Bullies rarely get identified for what they are, because they are regular members and nobody can suggest that they are ordinary trolls because they have a huge post count.

4. Trolls hardly respond to challenges. Instead they enjoy watching others fight.

Bullies enjoy fighting and run around bashing everybody who dares oppose them.

5. The potential damage done by trolls is limited to a particular topic of discussion or at most a forum.

The potential damage done by bullies is forum-wide and not related to topics, but to the personality of the bully and the kind of respect and influence he wields.


http://www.theadminzone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26193

Interesting...

We've certainly had a few of them bullies in the past. And now? Well...

They breed like rabbits.

HIMEOBS are especially clever with their trolling. Just look 'em up.

Oh this thread is not gonna end well

D'ya think?

I wonder what the intentions were for posting this particular thread? Cos Stevie Wonder can see the potential for a sh!t fling on this one.

Move it to the MENA forum and see what happens

OH MY GOD!!! I am on the internet a lot and all around on various forums related to whatever might be going on in my life. I've had lots of experience with trolls and really have learned to just ignore them. The bullies!!!! I haven't experienced that until I came to VJ and there are several boards that I simply avoid like the plague because of the atmosphere they create there. I've stated how I feel about it and now I've moved on. I'm watching how I feel in other boards here and we'll see if I stick around after my journey is over or not. It COULD be a cool place to hang out and lend support because it's an incredibly emotional and life changing journey.....but I deal with enough crap irl, no way I'm coming on VJ for added grief. I'm happy about this post, because now I don't feel like everyone is in the clique and doesn't see what I see.

It's always good to hear from members who normally don't post because they've been bullied into silence.

I don't think that the above poster was 'bullied into silence', Steven...if she makes a choice to post or leave, that's her choice. It's not that she's 'afraid of the bullies' so much that she doesn't post.

There's a difference to a personality conflict where two adults simply don't click in temperment, and bullying.

I think it's all in perspective, really. We can each look at a person and walk away with different opinions. Bully is a bit OTT, no? No one here's gonna get a faceful of dirt shoved in his/her face during recess. People will agree, people will disagree. And some people are 'bullies' and some are 'wussies', and everything in between....at the end of the day...if you don't get on with someone, one should either manually or automatically ignore that person. Problem solved.

This thread, to me, reads like passive aggressive finger pointing at it's worst. We're all adults here. We all make our own choices. To have to place blame for one's choices on a stranger seems silly to me.

If you don't like someone, ignore him/her. If that person is iyo out of line...report that person and let admin deal with it. We're not all going to agree....we're not all going to like each other. And we're all at a stage of a v frustrating process...so naturally the stress level is going to be high sometimes. The answer is not having to wrap everything in cotton wool and walk on eggshells in fear of offending someone.

Which one am I?

Neither. You're the VJ Mascot

We don't have any of those here

Excellent post Steven. Bullying DOES hurt people, whether in real life or online. And we are ALL people.

Ok, where are the hot VJ cheerleader babes? Do I get to climb on top?

There's no squad anymore. It's just you.

In that case, I demand a raise.

Keep up this kind of crazy talk and you'll do it for half.

Lisa, you are the WORST.BOSS.EVER!!!!!

*tantrum*

Your break is over...get back to work!

Hopefully the moderators will pay more attention to it, who is doing it on a regular basis and nip in the bud before we lose more members or they stop posting.

Did I just get hit by a train for voiceing my opinion? Oh, no, I didn't, I was being passive aggressive instead of just aggressive and attacking. Wow! That's my character flaw. I'll work harder at being verbally aggressive instead of sharing and being open and welcoming to others opinions.

FYI, I do post.

LOL

Steven,

Quit trying to get me banned. Just because I bully you with my superior wit and charming looks doesn't mean you need to bring our rivalry to this forum.

See, this is what I mean. I wasn't directing that at you, or even saying that you were posting or not posting at all. In fact, I said 'Steven' which clearly showed who I was responding to.

Hit by a train for voicing your opinion? What?

Lisa, stop being such a bully!

I sincerely don't want to see anyone banned here...really. But I also don't want to see people leave here because some people, especially members who've been here awhile, can't extend the kind of courtesy and respect to newer members. I'm hopeful that with the help of the moderators, we can keep in check those who tend to feel an incessant need to go beyond just disagreeing, who actually ridicule others' opinions.

A serious response? Well excuse my lame attempt at humor.

ps. a lot of the newer members are retards with attitude. Not most but way too many.

I agree on the issue of flamming towards new and old members alike. If you see members being flamed report the thread to me please.

But at the same time, you lolled and to Bassi and Zainab's complete misinterpretation at my post. I am assuming here that you knew full well when I said 'Steven' I was addressing you...yet you lolled at this poster's total overreaction in thinking I was somehow insulting her. Would it have been so hard to say 'she was talking to me' or something similar to diffuse and clarify the situation instead of the 'you go girl'esque response you gave? Think about it.

At the same time, I think that poster's response to what I said is a perfect example of how text...as it's so one dimensional...is easy to misinterpret...and feelings can get hurt when absolutely none were intended.



Get back to work!

I'm just going to clarify something here because I don't think everyone has grasped exactly what the moderators jobs are around here.

We do NOT police the board (this fact is in the TOS for those who wish to have a look). We act on PMs sent to us and on anything we may come across on our general travels around the place. If you, a member, sees something that you do not like, whether this be attitude, a TOS violation or anything else that you feel needs attention then the onus is on YOU, the member, to let US know about it.

NEVER assume that we have seen it, never assume that we are not acting or that we condone that kind of behaviour. Instead PM us with the link and show us where the problem is. That is the only way you can ever assume that we've seen the potential problem. So, it isn't a case of "the moderators not paying enough attention" it is more a case of the members needing to be more pro-active and aiding the moderators.

It was an informative read and quite accurate, IMO. I don't think it takes policing the boards to effectively moderate those members who fit the description.

It is amazing how some of the poster in this thread already fit the discription.... but of course they would never see themselves as bully's it just that others always misinterprate the meaning of there posts.... how many people does it take to read a post and be offended before the poster stops and thinks about the way they write their posts that makes all these people think they are being flamed....

And So it will continue....

Kez

If you're referring to me and the misinterpretation of my post earlier, that is really quite unfair and inaccurate...I'm not Monday morning qb'ing a 'oops you misunderstood'...clearly it says 'Steven' in my post, and I quoted and referred to a post of his.

Therefore I was referring to him, and not the other poster.

If you were not referring to me, then my bad! But I'm the only one who's claimed a 'misinterpretation' here, so I'm pretty sure that's what you're skirting around. Which is a bit unfair if you ask me. We cannot always prevent everyone on this site getting offended...

If people have complaints about someone, report it if it's so bad...don't just complain about it in a thread under a shroud of generality about 'some people'. The mods don't need 'schooling' and the wheel doesn't need any reinventing.

But if we are not shown the posts where there is a problem it will continue. We don't follow certain members around reading their posts so, if they post something that you think crosses the line, take some bloody action and let us know. Don't whine about it and say "oh, why don't the mods do anything!" PM us, let us know, be pro-active. Some days I only have time to check my daily PMs and act on them, other days I am able to have a look around the board. If I am PMed though I WILL make an effort to do a clean up or a suspension or just a warning. That's a guarantee. If you don't PM me (or LaL) then these things WILL continue. Don't assume that someone else has PMed us either; we don't care if we have multiple PMs regarding the same thing.

To be honest I think some members LIKE to moan about the actions of others; it's easier to moan about it rather than actually do something about it themselves and PM a moderator. That's my POV anyway.

So, to clarify, if you want certain members to "behave", PM us a link to their posts and we'll have a look. If you don't, we won't know about it and can't act. If you want VJ to improve its attitude then everyone needs to play their part, not just depend on the mods to see every little thing (which is impossible). And that's really all I have to say on this as I've got to really go and do some painting. Bloody old houses.

I bet we all have our own ideas on who is a bully or not, because some that people consider a bully here I might not, and someone who I might consider a bully others might not. If someone is just very opinionated it does not = bully to me. I also think ppl are implying Lisa is a bully, but sorry I don't think so. She is just opinionated (no offense Lisa!) as are many of us on VJ. I see a bully as someone who also violates the TOS during their pushy posts. If I see that going on I would report it. If it's just ppls' clashing opinions and no TOS is violated, I wouldn't report it, it's just someone with a strong opinion. In the past I have misjudged people who had strong opinions thinking they were really rude, but they turned out to be really nice people who just had strong opinions.

OK, so what I'm hearing is that the moderators act on PMS. That scares me enough to leave them alone & do their job. (Which you do very well. I'm going over here now. If that's OK. Thank you.)

For 3 weeks of the month we are approachable.

Seriously though, we do look around the forums as much as we can, but due to the sheer size of them it is impossible to see every post, which is where members PMing us is so very important to help keep this site on track.

One more thing I could add, is that I don't really feel comfortable discussing all my political ideals on VJ, maybe some of them, but not all because I don't feel like getting backlash from others. I feel my political ideals are thought of as stupid by many here because I am more conservative on many many issues. So I can either get into a million debates(more like I used to) or just not worry about discussing my political ideas here as much anymore to avoid conflict/annoyance. I know people on the other side may even feel the same. I could say it's a sort of political bullying, but really it's just strong opinions.

I think those who would fit the bill would never understand or accept it anyway. That is evident.

There's being opinionated and then there's acting like a child who must constantly prove his/her point and use passive-aggressive tactics. And there is an awful lot of "ooh he made a joke and I get it but you don't so you can't join my club" behavior. It's annoying, juvenile, and clearly a bid for attention because something is missing IRL, but it's not bullying, IMHO.

I think overall VJ mods/admins are great at catching bullying or trolling and stopping it. The other behavior they can't do much about unless they spent every moment censoring people's posts. But we have to just accept that some people will act like that the same way they do in our daily lives.

I like to chuckle at those people, shake my head, wonder why they need such attention, and move on!

I just want to add something. At times, perhaps we have seen a particular item that one would wrinkle their nose at. As in myself or Mags were in the thread where the questionable post is made. PM us about it anyway, should you have a concern that the post was over the top. Perhaps we didnt see it specifically, are unfamiliar with usage, or a whole myriad of other things that could cause us to pass the post by. I assure you, we take member's concerns very seriously, and do our best to sort it out.

I can also say that it might not be the best form for a member to report a post to us only to have responded to it using an equally objectionable retort. Kinda takes the wind out of the sails of the objection, so to speak. That little analogy isn't just applicable to objectionable posts, but also to threads posted. Members have also heard us state that we are specifically *not* referees. Members themselves are responsible for what they type out and who is responded to.

I understand the expectation of members on what should be/should not be allowed, and we certainly try our best to mediate, however there is something to be said for personal responsibility as well. Treat each other as you wish to be treated

I guess I don't see a good political debate the same as 'bullying', unless people in the thread decide to start name-calling or insulting each other.

Rebecca, I agree a good political debate is something else. But it seems almost all the political debates here end the same way, not really good, LOL. A lot of insults fly in them.

Stop being such a bully. I'm gonna report you.

Seriously, we're all adults here. Also, from different cultures and backgrounds, different ways of speaking.

I hate to see anyone get their feelings hurt, but if you do, report it. Simple as that.

The mods and admin know how to do their jobs.

This is the way I speak by the way, straight forward, so sorry if I ruffled any feathers.

Sure. That's a given in any social setting.

But.....when the same people do the same stuff over and over and over and over and over again, what are members supposed to do about that? Especially if they (many) have asked over and over and over and over again for the problem to be corrected, and it is not?

A message board isn't like a building where you can show someone the door. Unless somebody in charge of the virtual space decides to show it to them.

Yeah, I've seen that.

I guess if you are going to discuss your politics and/or your ideals, you have to develop a 'thick skin'. Hard to do sometimes if you are passionate or believe deeply about something.

But.....one shouldn't participate in a debate if one is going to behave like a social retard about their views either. That's SUPPOSED to be the beauty of living in America - one can think or believe whatever one likes, and no one can force what they believe on another person. People who INSIST on this, that or the other philosophy kind of scare me. They show no capacity to learn or reason.

There's nothing wrong with the way you speak. I kind of like it.

There's a difference between someone who speaks in a straight-forward manner, and someone who says what they have to say purposely to hurt others, or to draw others into a hot-pot.