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Fettman
Hey all,

I posted not too long ago that Liliana was going to get a B1/B2 visa to have a job interview here in the US. She got the visa and it is a one year, multiple entry visa. Is there anyway to use this to our benefit? Again, the interview is for a position in Russia, not the US.

If a K-1 visa is still required, etc., can she use the B1/B2 to come visit me or will that not be possible. I appreciate any help you all can give. Thanks!

- Steven
Fettman
One clarification, she currently does not plan on staying with J&J, it is a good job she can have until she is able to come here. She wants to look at her options here before making a decision. She did not list me as a fiance on any forms she filled out. So, again, any advice would be appreciated. Especially if she can visit me on a visa she has already obtained. Thanks!
slim
She is not your fiancee right now. Not officially, anyway. That means she can do anything the B visa entitles her to do.

Until you file for K-1, she is simply a tourist (or seeking employment) and that's it.


Fettman
QUOTE(slim @ Nov 5 2007, 10:07 AM) *
She is not your fiancee right now. Not officially, anyway. That means she can do anything the B visa entitles her to do.

Until you file for K-1, she is simply a tourist (or seeking employment) and that's it.


This is what I thought. Once she becomes my fiancee would her visa still be valid? I know people have talked about getting visas after filing for the K-1, but in this case she has it beforehand. Also, does anyone know anything about the B visas in terms of what you have to have in order to make another entry? For example could I arrange for a business in my town to write an invite or does it even matter since she has been approved for multiple entries? Thanks!

- Steven
russ
QUOTE(Fettman @ Nov 5 2007, 12:41 PM) *
This is what I thought. Once she becomes my fiancee would her visa still be valid? I know people have talked about getting visas after filing for the K-1, but in this case she has it beforehand. Also, does anyone know anything about the B visas in terms of what you have to have in order to make another entry? For example could I arrange for a business in my town to write an invite or does it even matter since she has been approved for multiple entries? Thanks!

- Steven



It is up to the POE to decide how long you can stay and how often.
Satellite
If that newly issued B1/B2 visa is going to last as long as it takes her school to finish, you can really simply this process if you avoid calling her your fiancée" until she comes here and both decide the issue here in US" if you know what I mean. Yes, the POE will have the last call on determining if she has a valid reason to come here and has reason to return.
Fettman
QUOTE(Satellite @ Nov 5 2007, 03:29 PM) *
If that newly issued B1/B2 visa is going to last as long as it takes her school to finish, you can really simply this process if you avoid calling her your fiancée" until she comes here and both decide the issue here in US" if you know what I mean. Yes, the POE will have the last call on determining if she has a valid reason to come here and has reason to return.



I am a bit confused by what you mean. Are you saying that she can come her under this visa and then while she is here we can get married and follow a different process? We have said nothing about her or I being in a "fiance/e" relationship.
russ
QUOTE(Fettman @ Nov 7 2007, 07:56 AM) *
I am a bit confused by what you mean. Are you saying that she can come her under this visa and then while she is here we can get married and follow a different process? We have said nothing about her or I being in a "fiance/e" relationship.


As long as you don't intend to marry when you enter the US, you can marry someone here while admitted under a different visa. If you had intended to marry, it would be fraud, since you had immigrant intent.

Proving this either way is difficult. Just don't make any decisions about marriage until you enter the country on a B1 and you would be within the letter of the law. USCIS would prefer that you give up the B1 and get a K1 in another country. If you do get married in the US, you can either adjust status here, or get a K3 overseas.
mox
It's doubtful that USCIS would be scouring this site looking for "intent," but it needs to be mentioned that your line of questioning sounds a lot like intent.

For example, your question "Are you saying that she can come her under this visa and then while she is here we can get married and follow a different process?" is pretty strong evidence that you are intending marriage after she enters the country, even if you are just trying to educate yourself. I'm not accusing you of anything, nor am I trying to be combative. I'm just saying that if someone wanted to show intent, your line of questioning is pretty strong evidence that you do in fact intend to marry her on her B1/B2 Visa.
russ
QUOTE(moxcamel @ Nov 7 2007, 01:19 PM) *
It's doubtful that USCIS would be scouring this site looking for "intent," but it needs to be mentioned that your line of questioning sounds a lot like intent.


The purpose of the B1 is for a job interview, for a position in a foreign country. This does not show any intent. It is both possible and reasonable to date someone without being sure about marrying them. Getting the B1 for the purpose of marrying would be fraud. That is not what is happening though - it is legitimately for a job. They may break up, in which case the job will be important.

Besides, getting married on another visa type isn't the issue. Using it to adjust status is. Even if they got married in the US, they would probably end up going the K3 route and trying to work out a job transfer with the US employer. As long as your intention at the POE is for a job interview, you aren't breaking the rules.

I did a lot of research before deciding to get married. Nothing wrong with that.

Also, the fact that she is planning for a job in Russia would show that you aren't planning to marry at this time.
slim
All you have to do is see what happens once she gets here.

As posted above, she's coming here for the job, and if the two of you happen to get married while she's here, that's not fraud. Asking about it, and even keeping the strong possibility of it open aren't fraud either. After all, she's not even your fiancee yet!

If anything, you got a lucky break.

When she comes to the U.S., visit her for a while and then make up your minds what you want to do. You are following the right steps already..... She's not a fiancee, she's a visitor!
Satellite
Just to add to the conversation.
My fiancée came here on a K1 and we weren't sure if we would get married either. Nothing is a 100% possibility. Plus both of us thought it was absurd to immigrate to the US without first experiencing life here. So after 2 months we had a city hall marriage and the K1 (technically used improperly) allowed us to confirm that we should indeed get married. How the hell will a USCIS officer figure any of this out, is beyond me. Same goes in reverse if you came on B visa and then decided to marry and stay. Also keep in mind if you do the latter route, the date of your marriage in comparison to her arrival in the states will have a huge impact.
In the procedural manual followed by the USCIS officers, (FAM code something, too lazy to look it up), it states that if marriage takes place within 30 days of arrival it is presumed that you intended fraud, if it takes place after 60 days it is presumed you did not and it is neutral between 30 to 60 days. So keep that in mind in making any kind of decision. Obviously it is better to have the USCIS overcome a presumption in your favor rather than the other way around.
slim
QUOTE(russ @ Nov 7 2007, 02:57 PM) *
I did a lot of research before deciding to get married.


laughing.gif laughing.gif laughing.gif So did I.

I just wish I would've done more!
russ
QUOTE(Satellite @ Nov 7 2007, 03:17 PM) *
In the procedural manual followed by the USCIS officers, (FAM code something, too lazy to look it up), it states that if marriage takes place within 30 days of arrival it is presumed that you intended fraud, if it takes place after 60 days it is presumed you did not and it is neutral between 30 to 60 days. So keep that in mind in making any kind of decision. Obviously it is better to have the USCIS overcome a presumption in your favor rather than the other way around.


There is certainly a bias towards K visas here. In the case of my wife, it was a choice between a K1 or F1 (she is a full time student anyway). K1 saved us about 10K a year in out of state tuition. Moving in with me while here on an F1 would not break any rules as far as I know, even if we decided to get married some time in the future.

The B visa will probably allow for multiple entries, so she can come back to see you in the future. If you decide to get married while she is here, the choice is still to either file an AOS here or a K3 in Moscow.

Though I'm not a lawyer, and not telling you to do this, if you do get married and pursue an AOS here, she will almost certianly overstay her I94. She will therefore not be able to travel out of the US until the AOS is adjudicated. The rules as implemented by USCIS encourage a visa overstay in this case. The other alternatives are getting married and petioning a K3 (possibly a good choice, since she will have a good job in Russia), or petion for a K1 (perhaps less of a good idea since she may have the B1). If you do end up getting married, an immigration attorney will probably recommend staying in the US until an AOS is adjudicated.
mox
Just to be clear, I'm not saying or even implying that anything fraudulent is going on. Only the OP knows the answer to that, and it would be unhelpful to speculate. I take the OP's word at face value.

I'm just saying that this line of questioning *sounds* a lot like intent, and that he should be careful. People have been denied entry for a lot less, and even "contemplating" marriage while she just happens to be traveling on a business Visa can raise suspicions. A USCIS officer faced with the question "Are you saying that she can come her under this visa and then while she is here we can get married and follow a different process?" would definitely start hearing alarm bells in their head, no matter what the intent was.
slim
QUOTE(russ @ Nov 7 2007, 04:35 PM) *
K1 saved us about 10K a year in out of state tuition. Moving in with me while here on an F1 would not break any rules as far as I know, even if we decided to get married some time in the future.


K1 also "locked her in" as your wife instead of "just living together" as a foreign student and her boyfriend. (Although, you probably would've saved more than 10K a year just having a foreign girlfriend living with you instead of a wife!)

The OP on this topic is not in a dissimilar situation. He has the opportunity to "choose" which way to go with the entire visa process and whether or not to pursue it with a wife here, a wife overseas, or a fiancee that's just so happened to have visited several times in the past year.

This is a perfectly legal way to go, regardless of how it's done. The OP isn't actually doing anything wrong by weighing the options. The fact is the B visa was obtained for the purposes of the job (sure, seeing the person she loves is a great side-benefit) and not for the purposes of seeing the boyfriend. And now since she has the B visa, the rest is all optional!
Satellite
QUOTE(russ @ Nov 7 2007, 12:35 PM) *
There is certainly a bias towards K visas here. In the case of my wife, it was a choice between a K1 or F1 (she is a full time student anyway). K1 saved us about 10K a year in out of state tuition.
Certainly true. But each states does it differently. For example in California one needs to be resident for one year to qualify for in state tuition. For a K1 holder that means I-94 / entry stamp plus 365 days. But if you came in one something else you might not qualify:
"Unfortunately, the following visa status holders cannot establish residency regardless of the length of time in California: B-1, B-2, C, D-1, D-2, F-1, F-2, H-2, H-3, J-1, J-2, M-1, M-2, O-2, P-1, P-2, P-3, P-4, Q, and TN/TD."
However, once you get your green card the clock starts to tick even if you did come in on one of the visas listed above. I am not sure from which date you start counting from date of greencard or date of entry. I take it the date of entry or at least the date you got your driver's license will work too. Because residency in California is status / length based. Once you overcome status you can start counting the length. The day you got status doesn't really need to be an issue. So in our case my wife got her green card within a year of arrival, it would not have mattered in terms of tuition.


QUOTE(moxcamel @ Nov 7 2007, 01:08 PM) *
People have been denied entry for a lot less, and even "contemplating" marriage while she just happens to be traveling on a business Visa can raise suspicions.
I am again confused by your line of thinking. If someone has no "immigration file" - no pending I-129F etc., how does an immigration officer come to a conclusion that a person coming to the states for a job interview plans on marrying? The two just don't go together. They can ask who the employer is, what accommodations, and how long. And unless you say something stupid like I am going to be staying with my fiancé the day before the interview and then we are off to get married the day after, you should be fine.

mox
QUOTE(moxcamel @ Nov 7 2007, 01:08 PM) *
People have been denied entry for a lot less, and even "contemplating" marriage while she just happens to be traveling on a business Visa can raise suspicions.
QUOTE
I am again confused by your line of thinking. ... And unless you say something stupid like I am going to be staying with my fiancé the day before the interview and then we are off to get married the day after, you should be fine.

Well that's pretty much my line of thinking, but I don't think most people would be quite so obvious about it. It's possible that the CO and the applicant could start chatting, the applicant starts to feel at ease, mentions a boyfriend, and then it gets slippery from there.

Anyway, I said I wouldn't speculate, and there I go speculating. smile.gif I guess what I'm trying to convey to the OP is to just be careful. Obviously their relationship has become more than just boyfriend/girlfriend. They haven't made the big commitment yet, but it's obvious they're circling the drain. USCIS likes things to be black and white. They start seeing shades of gray and they're likely to get nervous.
Satellite
QUOTE(moxcamel @ Nov 8 2007, 08:54 AM) *
Obviously their relationship has become more than just boyfriend/girlfriend.
Wow, how would you know such a detail? Were you spying on them? tongue.gif
mox
QUOTE(Satellite @ Nov 8 2007, 09:01 AM) *
QUOTE(moxcamel @ Nov 8 2007, 08:54 AM) *
Obviously their relationship has become more than just boyfriend/girlfriend.
Wow, how would you know such a detail? Were you spying on them? tongue.gif

Look out your window...I'll wave... devil.gif
Fettman
QUOTE(moxcamel @ Nov 8 2007, 12:17 PM) *
QUOTE(Satellite @ Nov 8 2007, 09:01 AM) *
QUOTE(moxcamel @ Nov 8 2007, 08:54 AM) *
Obviously their relationship has become more than just boyfriend/girlfriend.
Wow, how would you know such a detail? Were you spying on them? tongue.gif

Look out your window...I'll wave... devil.gif



wink.gif After reading through all the responses I understand the whole intent and legality behind the situation. Nothing official has been said to anyone. My concern is with the whole process after the fact. If for some reason she comes her and while she is here I decide to ask her to marry me and then she stays beyond her allotted time it seems to me that could cause trouble with the whole AOS, Social Security, getting work documents process. I would in some ways prefer to go through the whole K-1 process if it would mean things would be easier on that end. I think both of us would like for her to be able to start working and leave the country again in a timely manner rather than waiting for some time. This whole thing came totally as a surprise to both of us. I did not expect for her to be invited to America for an interview, nor get a multiple entry B1/B2 visa.

So, two questions. One, how much more "riskier" is it for me to make the marriage decision once she is here on the B1/B2 visa than if I asked her to marry me now and go through the K-1 process? Two, if I did decide to apply for the K-1, she can still come here on the B1/B2 visa if I arrange for an invitation and she proves that she has sufficient ties to Russa correct? I was already prepared to pay all the fees and she is already prepared to do all the stuff on her end, so really going the K-1 route is not too much for us to handle. We understand the wait times and that is why we decided that it would be a good idea for her to apply for a job in Russia to pay her bills while I save money for us. However, if for some reason we decided not to make up our minds about marriage until she was here on a B1/B2 and the process after we got married was as "painless" as the K-1 then why not go for it?

I appreciate all the feedback and advice. I want to work the system for my benefit rather than the system trying to benefit off of me. Thanks!
russ
QUOTE(Fettman @ Nov 8 2007, 05:03 PM) *
So, two questions. One, how much more "riskier" is it for me to make the marriage decision once she is here on the B1/B2 visa than if I asked her to marry me now and go through the K-1 process? Two, if I did decide to apply for the K-1, she can still come here on the B1/B2 visa if I arrange for an invitation and she proves that she has sufficient ties to Russa correct? I was already prepared to pay all the fees and she is already prepared to do all the stuff on her end, so really going the K-1 route is not too much for us to handle. We understand the wait times and that is why we decided that it would be a good idea for her to apply for a job in Russia to pay her bills while I save money for us. However, if for some reason we decided not to make up our minds about marriage until she was here on a B1/B2 and the process after we got married was as "painless" as the K-1 then why not go for it?

I appreciate all the feedback and advice. I want to work the system for my benefit rather than the system trying to benefit off of me. Thanks!



To stay away from TOS issues, I will put it this way. Hypothetically, should someone legally admitted to the US marry and submit an AOS, it is as likely to be approved as a K1. Procedurely, it raises a red flag with USCIS if such a marriage occurs less than 30 days after entry into the country, but otherwise, it does not screw anything up. As long as an AOS is pending, there is no problem obtaining SS or EADs or anything else.

Intending to get married on a non-marriage visa is, of course, against the rules.

I would suggest spending about $100 to speak with an immigration lawyer for an hour or so. Prepare your questions in advance.
Satellite
Addition:
1. If you file for AOS based on marriage to a US citizen all previous overstays and unlawful work will be forgiven. So don't worry about taking time to get married even if she is out of status.
2. When you apply for AOS you instantly get authorized stay by the Attorney General.
3. Biggest draw back to getting AOS from B1/B2 visa is that you can't travel abroad until you get the card. Too risky to try AP in such situations. Not a big deal if you want to work and travel in the US for a year or two.
4. Once you apply for that I-129F your fiancée will face great difficulty upon entering, no matter what letters you write. Even the European folks who have high paying jobs and real property in their home countries get turned around once that pending I-129F is in the system.
5. Going straight to AOS will save you money and time in the long run, however, only if you admit to doing something illegal will it end up costing you more in legal fees.
6. Statistically more people Adjust status from other visas rather than K1/K3 visas.
russ
QUOTE(Satellite @ Nov 8 2007, 06:34 PM) *
6. Statistically more people Adjust status from other visas rather than K1/K3 visas.


Everything Sat said is correct.

An important consideration though - if your wife overstays and you don't marry, you will be screwing her life up. I would suspect that one reason your wifes interview is in the US is that they want to make sure she can travel here freely. A visa overstay will likely cost her career. If she gets this job, try to get them to employ her here and go the K3 route.

Drug company MBAs do okay, she could end up making more money than you in the next few years. I would make the job priority number one. It may make the K visa issue moot, if she can get herself a transfer to the US. Having a 150K+ a year job in the US puts her way ahead of most of us.

She will probably get the B1, as she has more to lose by overstaying in the US.
Satellite
QUOTE(russ @ Nov 9 2007, 08:00 AM) *
A visa overstay will likely cost her career. If she gets this job, try to get them to employ her here and go the K3 route.
Obviously applying for another with a previous overstay doesn't help, but the real punishment begins after 180 day overstay with a 3 year bar on entry and a 10 year bar for a one year or more overstay. There are hardship waivers to USC's to get around this but they take a long time to grand and seldom granted.

QUOTE(russ @ Nov 9 2007, 08:00 AM) *
She will probably get the B1, as she has more to lose by overstaying in the US.
Unlike B2 visas which immigration officers tend to blindly grant 6 months of status in the US. B1's I-94's tend to represent exactly how long the stay will be. This is based on the word of many practitioners in this field.
russ
QUOTE(Satellite @ Nov 9 2007, 01:35 PM) *
Obviously applying for another with a previous overstay doesn't help, but the real punishment begins after 180 day overstay with a 3 year bar on entry and a 10 year bar for a one year or more overstay. There are hardship waivers to USC's to get around this but they take a long time to grand and seldom granted.


The failure to show up at work will cause problems as well. Probably better off going the K route for this reason.
Fettman
QUOTE(russ @ Nov 9 2007, 02:05 PM) *
QUOTE(Satellite @ Nov 9 2007, 01:35 PM) *
Obviously applying for another with a previous overstay doesn't help, but the real punishment begins after 180 day overstay with a 3 year bar on entry and a 10 year bar for a one year or more overstay. There are hardship waivers to USC's to get around this but they take a long time to grand and seldom granted.


The failure to show up at work will cause problems as well. Probably better off going the K route for this reason.


Thanks for all the advice Russ and Sat, basically here is how I see things happening for the two of us based on different visa routes:

K-1

I apply for the K-1 soon after her interview next week. If she gets the job, great, but she only wanted to use it temporarily in Russia until she was able to come here and marry me if we so decided to get married. She does not want to work for J&J long term, she just knows that she will get a better salary with them in Russia than just waiting tables, etc. In the US she would like not to work for a bit and then search for a job she wants, to work for a non-profit or NGO. So, the job point a not one we are concerned with right now. She was going to quit J&J in any case. So, she would work for them until the K-1 was approved, quit her job and then come here, and then we would go through the whole AOS and onward process.

B1/B2

We would wait and see what happened with the job and if she was offered one, great, but we would find an excuse for her to come here again and before she did that she would quit her job and then come her, we would wait the 30 days or so, and then get married. Then we would have the whole AOS and onward process.

I see that the risks involved are not too great, intent is a hard thing to prove to in any case since she is technically not my fiancee yet. However, I think both of us have set up the next 6 months or so getting prepared to get married, I need to move into my own place, she needs to be able to pack up her stuff and decide what to take with her, work on getting a visa for her mom to come to the wedding, etc. I have the money set aside already, so I think in the end we will both feel more comfortable taking the K-1 route. We would both really like to be able to go to Russia within a year of our marriage so she can visit family and friends. Sat answered the biggest question I had about being able to use the visa to come while the I-129F is under review. However, if the process from AOS onward is the same for both then it is an option to consider. However, I think J&J will look more favorably on her if she stays 6 months and the says that she is going to America and will be interested in working with them there, as a back up if she cannot find a job she wants. Just alot for me to balance out and discuss more with her. However, when the waiting and money are not an issue for us I think we would prefer to play it "legal" with the K-1.

Thanks again!
mox
I hate to be a wet blanket. I really do. But your last post sounds a lot like you've already made up your mind about marrying this girl. If you intend to marry in the United States, she will be entering fraudulently on the B1/B2. There's no such thing as "technically" being your fiance. If you have intent then that's all that matters, and it sounds like you have intent. If she is entering this country with the intent to marry you, then it will be fraudulent unless she enters on the K-1. You are playing a dangerous game with your futures if you try to get the "best deal" out of the system. And as others have pointed out, it could cost your SO a lot more than just a marriage.

If I've misunderstood you, my apologies.
russ
QUOTE(moxcamel @ Nov 9 2007, 03:30 PM) *
I hate to be a wet blanket. I really do. But your last post sounds a lot like you've already made up your mind about marrying this girl. If you intend to marry in the United States, she will be entering fraudulently on the B1/B2. There's no such thing as "technically" being your fiance. If you have intent then that's all that matters, and it sounds like you have intent


It is her intent that matters here, not his. There is no B visa now, so this discussion is purely academic anyway. I would suggest she consult with an immigration lawyer in the US to discus options anyway - comments here are not legal advice.
mox
QUOTE(russ @ Nov 9 2007, 12:37 PM) *
It is her intent that matters here, not his.

As the saying goes, it takes 2 to tango. Somehow I don't think this whole marriage thing is going to be news to her. smile.gif
russ
QUOTE(moxcamel @ Nov 9 2007, 03:50 PM) *
As the saying goes, it takes 2 to tango. Somehow I don't think this whole marriage thing is going to be news to her.


I don't think the law cares on this point. She could meet and marry someone else entirely once here. There could be dozens of people that want to marry you (for purpose of argument, let's say you are a famous model with lots of admirers). What other people want or intend isn't relevant.

Most normal people talk about marriage for years before actually deciding to do so (or not in many cases). Says nothing about intent. Also, the assumptions made by USCIS are not the law, just the guidelines they use. What would actually happen in court with an immigration judge is often a different thing.

Sat, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe even if you intend to get married in the US at the time of entry, you aren't breaking the law. Intending to adjust status (having immigrant intent) is the key here.

Or lets say you are already married and visit the US on a B visa. (This is a common situation for American expats). If you intend to adjust status when you arrive, you are breaking the rules. If you decide not to return home after vacationing for a few months, you are probably not.
mox
QUOTE(russ @ Nov 9 2007, 01:41 PM) *
I don't think the law cares on this point. She could meet and marry someone else entirely once here. There could be dozens of people that want to marry you (for purpose of argument, let's say you are a famous model with lots of admirers). What other people want or intend isn't relevant.

Let's not split hairs here, because the USCIS sure isn't going to. What we're talking about is the intent for this specific woman to marry this specific man. IF she is entering the country with immigrant intention--and let's face it, if they've already decided to marry then she's already decided to immigrate--then she is entering fraudulently on the B1/B2, even if she also happens to be entering on her Visa for the stated reason.

QUOTE
Most normal people talk about marriage for years before actually deciding to do so (or not in many cases). Says nothing about intent. Also, the assumptions made by USCIS are not the law, just the guidelines they use. What would actually happen in court with an immigration judge is often a different thing.

Which is why I am suggesting that IF there is intent to marry (and it sounds to me like there is) the K-1 is the better--no, ONLY--way to go. It removes all doubt, and you don't have to hinge your future on what a court decides.

QUOTE
Sat, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe even if you intend to get married in the US at the time of entry, you aren't breaking the law. Intending to adjust status (having immigrant intent) is the key here.

Assuming you are correct, let's be realistic. Someone who is entering the United States with the intent to marry is about 99% likely to have immigrant intent. And in this specific example, it would be more like 100%.

QUOTE
Or lets say you are already married and visit the US on a B visa. (This is a common situation for American expats). If you intend to adjust status when you arrive, you are breaking the rules. If you decide not to return home after vacationing for a few months, you are probably not.

But that's not what this specific case is about. This specific case is about an unmarried couple who SEEM to be trying to make a decision as to the best way to go about getting married in the United States. If that is indeed the case, then the K-1 (or K-3 if he wants to travel) is the best way to ensure that there aren't problems later that could potentially ruin at least one of their lives.

And again, I apologize to the OP if I'm wrong about this. It seems that the OP wants to use technicalities like not being "technically" engaged as some sort of plausible deniability in case things turn south. I just think that's a bad way to go.
Fettman
QUOTE(moxcamel @ Nov 9 2007, 05:03 PM) *
QUOTE(russ @ Nov 9 2007, 01:41 PM) *
I don't think the law cares on this point. She could meet and marry someone else entirely once here. There could be dozens of people that want to marry you (for purpose of argument, let's say you are a famous model with lots of admirers). What other people want or intend isn't relevant.

Let's not split hairs here, because the USCIS sure isn't going to. What we're talking about is the intent for this specific woman to marry this specific man. IF she is entering the country with immigrant intention--and let's face it, if they've already decided to marry then she's already decided to immigrate--then she is entering fraudulently on the B1/B2, even if she also happens to be entering on her Visa for the stated reason.

QUOTE
Most normal people talk about marriage for years before actually deciding to do so (or not in many cases). Says nothing about intent. Also, the assumptions made by USCIS are not the law, just the guidelines they use. What would actually happen in court with an immigration judge is often a different thing.

Which is why I am suggesting that IF there is intent to marry (and it sounds to me like there is) the K-1 is the better--no, ONLY--way to go. It removes all doubt, and you don't have to hinge your future on what a court decides.

QUOTE
Sat, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe even if you intend to get married in the US at the time of entry, you aren't breaking the law. Intending to adjust status (having immigrant intent) is the key here.

Assuming you are correct, let's be realistic. Someone who is entering the United States with the intent to marry is about 99% likely to have immigrant intent. And in this specific example, it would be more like 100%.

QUOTE
Or lets say you are already married and visit the US on a B visa. (This is a common situation for American expats). If you intend to adjust status when you arrive, you are breaking the rules. If you decide not to return home after vacationing for a few months, you are probably not.

But that's not what this specific case is about. This specific case is about an unmarried couple who SEEM to be trying to make a decision as to the best way to go about getting married in the United States. If that is indeed the case, then the K-1 (or K-3 if he wants to travel) is the best way to ensure that there aren't problems later that could potentially ruin at least one of their lives.

And again, I apologize to the OP if I'm wrong about this. It seems that the OP wants to use technicalities like not being "technically" engaged as some sort of plausible deniability in case things turn south. I just think that's a bad way to go.



I am more in agreement with you about the K-1 issue. My original question was asked out of total ignorance. In fact I was more interested to see if she could just come here to visit while the K-1 was being processed. The answer to that was pretty much no, even with an existing visa (if I understood Sat right). I have no desire to risk our futures to make something easier or because it is cheaper. However, I am not going to be the "good boy" and do the right thing just because it is the right thing. The government makes nothing easy for most of us and some of that for good reason, but other times not so much. In the end I do not want to have to worry that some evidence or something will come up "proving" that we committed fraud. Plus, I would like her to be able to go visit her family and such as soon as she can. As I said before we both more prepared for the K-1 visa than for some sort of crazy system of trying to use a loophole. She needs time in Russia to prepare to move her and I need time here to prepare for her arrive.

Yes, I am looking for the "best deal" to get out of the system. I do hope you are coming down on me like this because you are a genuinely nice person and not because you like to judge people. I came asking a question, options were offered and I explored all sides of the matter before coming to a decision. I appreciate the frankness from everyone on their thoughts and ideas. For now, I think the K-1 visa is the "best deal". I believe all of life should be about minimizing risks, but at the same time I weigh them to make decisions. I still believe they would have a hard time proving intent, but in this case why tempt fate just so I can save a few hundred bucks. And when it comes to technicalities I believe many people get caught and released on them. I am sure we all "technically" break the law everyday.

I have no hard feelings toward anyone (looks at Moxcamel wink.gif ) I truly appreciate the honest feedback. I understand this is not legal advice and I would hardly take what is said here to be the same as what an immigration lawyer can tell me. So, with that issue out of the way I suppose her chances of being able to visit me are slim to none after I have submitted my application?

Plus I wanted to be able to propose to her in Vienna in two weeks wink.gif. I have to take advantage of such things smile.gif
mox
QUOTE(Fettman @ Nov 9 2007, 04:17 PM) *
Yes, I am looking for the "best deal" to get out of the system. I do hope you are coming down on me like this because you are a genuinely nice person and not because you like to judge people.

I hope I didn't sound like I was "coming down" on you. I just think you're entitled to hear the blunt and honest truth, which is sometimes (often?) different than the things we want to hear. I'm definitely not judging you. Just calling it as I see it. smile.gif

QUOTE
Plus I wanted to be able to propose to her in Vienna in two weeks wink.gif. I have to take advantage of such things smile.gif

Not to beat a dead horse, but this pretty much seals it for you that the K-1 or K-3 is the only way to go.

Best of luck to you, I wish you both well! Do stick around and keep us all up to date on your progress. This is a very supportive community, and you'll want all the support you can get.
Fettman
QUOTE(moxcamel @ Nov 9 2007, 07:39 PM) *
QUOTE(Fettman @ Nov 9 2007, 04:17 PM) *
Yes, I am looking for the "best deal" to get out of the system. I do hope you are coming down on me like this because you are a genuinely nice person and not because you like to judge people.

I hope I didn't sound like I was "coming down" on you. I just think you're entitled to hear the blunt and honest truth, which is sometimes (often?) different than the things we want to hear. I'm definitely not judging you. Just calling it as I see it. smile.gif

QUOTE
Plus I wanted to be able to propose to her in Vienna in two weeks wink.gif. I have to take advantage of such things smile.gif

Not to beat a dead horse, but this pretty much seals it for you that the K-1 or K-3 is the only way to go.

Best of luck to you, I wish you both well! Do stick around and keep us all up to date on your progress. This is a very supportive community, and you'll want all the support you can get.



*insert some contrary statement about technicalities and intent*

I was not looking to hear anything really except what my options are. As I said, I have resigned myself to the K-1 process a while ago and in fact have it all ready to go, just have to wait until after her interview.

*kicks the dead horse a few more time*

If someone wants to put a few more bullets in its head be my guest smile.gif

I plan on sticking around at least until everything is said and done. So far most of the people I have met here have been really nice and informative, except for that Moxcamel person smile.gif
mox
QUOTE(Fettman @ Nov 9 2007, 05:44 PM) *
So far most of the people I have met here have been really nice and informative, except for that Moxcamel person smile.gif

He really is a jerk. No idea what his girl sees in him. smile.gif
Satellite
QUOTE(russ @ Nov 9 2007, 01:41 PM) *
Sat, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe even if you intend to get married in the US at the time of entry, you aren't breaking the law. Intending to adjust status (having immigrant intent) is the key here.
You are correct. In theory, some people use a B2 visa to marry in the US and then the US spouse returns abroad! Later that same couple again come to the US to visit. Mostly a European thing involving Americans living abroad.

As for coming here on B visa while the I-129F is pending simply requires luck and extra proof of intent to return to Russia. Being denied doesn't cost you anything unless you lie once interrogated by the POE, if it even comes to that. However, you do lose out an a plane ticket if you are sent home and you can be detained for many hours. Otherwise it won't really hurt your pending K1 visa.
Fettman
QUOTE(Satellite @ Nov 10 2007, 01:19 AM) *
QUOTE(russ @ Nov 9 2007, 01:41 PM) *
Sat, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe even if you intend to get married in the US at the time of entry, you aren't breaking the law. Intending to adjust status (having immigrant intent) is the key here.
You are correct. In theory, some people use a B2 visa to marry in the US and then the US spouse returns abroad! Later that same couple again come to the US to visit. Mostly a European thing involving Americans living abroad.

As for coming here on B visa while the I-129F is pending simply requires luck and extra proof of intent to return to Russia. Being denied doesn't cost you anything unless you lie once interrogated by the POE, if it even comes to that. However, you do lose out an a plane ticket if you are sent home and you can be detained for many hours. Otherwise it won't really hurt your pending K1 visa.


Well, we are thinking now to postpone apply for the K-1 so she can visit in January, meet my folks and see some of my America. (Orlando is hardly the same as Virginia). Now that she has the visa does she have to show an invitation or something when she arrives? I guess I am in the dark about what the POE will require from her, if anything. Any advice about that would be appreciated.
Satellite
QUOTE(Fettman @ Nov 10 2007, 05:37 AM) *
Now that she has the visa does she have to show an invitation or something when she arrives? I guess I am in the dark about what the POE will require from her, if anything. Any advice about that would be appreciated.
Have her bring everything pertaining to the job interview. That is usually more than enough. Have her NOT mention you or any of her plans after the interview if any. Find out how much it costs to change tickets. If they ask to see return tickets, it will be wise that when she says she is returning right after the interview that her tickets say the same thing. Once you are in you can do so many things here. For example file for extension of status. Change to another non-immigrant status, change to immigrant status, appeal if necessary. File for asylum if necessary, Jewish folks, political folks against Putin, and other non-main stream believers are again being granted! And all of this is done while you are here in the US. It's a great system once you are in the door. Others will also recommend she bring some documents showing she is wanted back at her school, home, and has commitments she'd want to return to. Keep in mind most of this might not be necessary at all. Depends on the POE officer you get.
slim
QUOTE(moxcamel @ Nov 9 2007, 06:03 PM) *
It seems that the OP wants to use technicalities like not being "technically" engaged as some sort of plausible deniability in case things turn south.


Why not? The current administration uses technicalities like "high-level, reliable inteligence data" and "extraordinary rendition" all the time to explain daily SNAFUs.

Surely you could prove or disprove just about anything you wanted to using their own jargon against them. Something as simple as an intention to marry cannot be proven until there's actually documented evidence. A paper trail must be submitted. There must be a K-1 visa applied for, a marriage license, something of that nature with an approved governmental representative's signature on it or else it's just not real.

I had every intention of marrying Salma Hayek and Mariah Carey in a joint ceremony while I was in high school. Did that make them my fiancees?

As my boss at work says...... "If it aint on DVD, then it aint me."


And back on topic, this is kind of what seems to happen more than it needs to on this forum; we look at everything from the American perspective, from our side looking through the govt. to the impending visitor or immigrant. We must prove or disprove ourselves (and our S/Os) through valid evidence and, in turn, have plausible deniability of any suspected or possible wrong-doing. Guys, keep in mind, you're simply trying to get someone you love to come be with you in the smoothest and most efficient manner possible. That's all. It's not like you invaded a sovereign nation, toppled their government and then started a civil war or anything based on faulty "high-level, reliable inteligence data". Gosh, now that would be extraordinary.
mox
QUOTE(slim @ Nov 10 2007, 09:35 AM) *
QUOTE(moxcamel @ Nov 9 2007, 06:03 PM) *
It seems that the OP wants to use technicalities like not being "technically" engaged as some sort of plausible deniability in case things turn south.


Why not? The current administration uses technicalities like "high-level, reliable inteligence data" and "extraordinary rendition" all the time to explain daily SNAFUs.

And look how well that's worked for them. smile.gif And besides, I hold myself to a higher standard than our government.

QUOTE
Surely you could prove or disprove just about anything you wanted to using their own jargon against them. Something as simple as an intention to marry cannot be proven until there's actually documented evidence. A paper trail must be submitted. There must be a K-1 visa applied for, a marriage license, something of that nature with an approved governmental representative's signature on it or else it's just not real.

Unfortunately the government is much better at playing their game than we are. Yes you could use all kinds of technicalities and jargon and what-have-you, and maybe you could even get a court to side with you after a lengthy and expensive trial. Or not. But why take that chance?

QUOTE
I had every intention of marrying Salma Hayek and Mariah Carey in a joint ceremony while I was in high school. Did that make them my fiancees?

As I said, it takes two to tango. smile.gif

QUOTE
And back on topic, this is kind of what seems to happen more than it needs to on this forum; we look at everything from the American perspective, from our side looking through the govt. to the impending visitor or immigrant. We must prove or disprove ourselves (and our S/Os) through valid evidence and, in turn, have plausible deniability of any suspected or possible wrong-doing. Guys, keep in mind, you're simply trying to get someone you love to come be with you in the smoothest and most efficient manner possible. That's all. It's not like you invaded a sovereign nation, toppled their government and then started a civil war or anything based on faulty "high-level, reliable inteligence data". Gosh, now that would be extraordinary.


I think giving advice on how to "beat" the system is just inviting trouble, and the problem with that is that it's not us who have to live with the consequences. I can't even imagine how heartbreaking it would be for the OP's fiancee to be not only turned away but denied entry for years because they mis-used the B1/B2 Visa.

Giving advice on how to work within the system, and even (legally) exploit weaknesses in the system that can be used to our advantage (such as the "RFE trick") is much more responsible and more likely to result in a happy reunion. Trying to exploit the system might be faster, and may even work 90% (made up statistic) of the time, but the stakes are just much too high.
Satellite
QUOTE(moxcamel @ Nov 10 2007, 09:56 AM) *
I think giving advice on how to "beat" the system is just inviting trouble, and the problem with that is that it's not us who have to live with the consequences. I can't even imagine how heartbreaking it would be for the OP's fiancée to be not only turned away but denied entry for years because they mis-used the B1/B2 Visa.
IF you get denied entry on a B1/B2 because you are inadmissible because you really need a K1 visa (suppose somehow the POE officer figured it out) that does not bar you from getting a K1 in the future nor does it put any kind of barrier.
Instead you are probably thinking of potential problems with AOS. Guess, what, you are in the US and together when you appeal or have troubles with this step. A big victory in my opinion.

QUOTE(moxcamel @ Nov 10 2007, 09:56 AM) *
Giving advice on how to work within the system, and even (legally) exploit weaknesses in the system that can be used to our advantage (such as the "RFE trick") is much more responsible and more likely to result in a happy reunion. Trying to exploit the system might be faster, and may even work 90% (made up statistic) of the time, but the stakes are just much too high.
Let's not forget that adjusting status from B1/B2 is NOT illegal.
mox
QUOTE(Satellite @ Nov 10 2007, 10:15 AM) *
QUOTE(moxcamel @ Nov 10 2007, 09:56 AM) *
Giving advice on how to work within the system, and even (legally) exploit weaknesses in the system that can be used to our advantage (such as the "RFE trick") is much more responsible and more likely to result in a happy reunion. Trying to exploit the system might be faster, and may even work 90% (made up statistic) of the time, but the stakes are just much too high.
Let's not forget that adjusting status from B1/B2 is NOT illegal.

Entering on a B1/B2 with intent to marry is though.
Satellite
QUOTE(moxcamel @ Nov 10 2007, 10:20 AM) *
Entering on a B1/B2 with intent to marry is though.
Nope, that is legal too. Only entering with the intent to adjust status from a B1/B2 is illegal. A lot of things happen in Vegas as a tourist that you wished stayed in Vegas tongue.gif
russ
QUOTE(moxcamel @ Nov 10 2007, 01:20 PM) *
Entering on a B1/B2 with intent to marry is though.

Not true.
mox
QUOTE(Satellite @ Nov 10 2007, 10:27 AM) *
QUOTE(moxcamel @ Nov 10 2007, 10:20 AM) *
Entering on a B1/B2 with intent to marry is though.
Nope, that is legal too. Only entering with the intent to adjust status from a B1/B2 is illegal. A lot of things happen in Vegas as a tourist that you wished stayed in Vegas tongue.gif

Fair enough, but if you walk up to a customs agent at the airport with your B1/B2 Visa in hand and tell him you're marrying your USC boyfriend, then you're getting back on an airplane right quick. It's ludicrous to think that someone who's planning on entering the US to marry a USC isn't also intending to adjust their status. There are bound to be a very few exceptions of course, but those are the exceptions that prove the rule.
russ
QUOTE(Fettman @ Nov 10 2007, 08:37 AM) *
Well, we are thinking now to postpone apply for the K-1 so she can visit in January, meet my folks and see some of my America. (Orlando is hardly the same as Virginia). Now that she has the visa does she have to show an invitation or something when she arrives? I guess I am in the dark about what the POE will require from her, if anything. Any advice about that would be appreciated.


With a valid visa, for a short stay, without overstaying the prior time, she should have no trouble. No invitations or anything like that, they will just want to know where she is staying and when she is returning. They don't need to know anything about you.
russ
QUOTE(moxcamel @ Nov 10 2007, 01:56 PM) *
Fair enough, but if you walk up to a customs agent at the airport with your B1/B2 Visa in hand and tell him you're marrying your USC boyfriend, then you're getting back on an airplane right quick. It's ludicrous to think that someone who's planning on entering the US to marry a USC isn't also intending to adjust their status. There are bound to be a very few exceptions of course, but those are the exceptions that prove the rule.


I know many people who have married US expats in the US, and then returned home. I also know tons of US expats married to foreigners (I used to live in Holland for a few years). None of them had any trouble marrying in the US, or travelling to the US with their American spouses, or adjusting while they were travelling here.

There are only a few exceptions where you can't adjust status in the US. One would be if you don't have a valid I-94 Arrival/Departure record. Another would be if you are adjusting on a K visa with a different spouse.
mox
QUOTE(russ @ Nov 10 2007, 11:16 AM) *
QUOTE(moxcamel @ Nov 10 2007, 01:56 PM) *
Fair enough, but if you walk up to a customs agent at the airport with your B1/B2 Visa in hand and tell him you're marrying your USC boyfriend, then you're getting back on an airplane right quick. It's ludicrous to think that someone who's planning on entering the US to marry a USC isn't also intending to adjust their status. There are bound to be a very few exceptions of course, but those are the exceptions that prove the rule.


I know many people who have married US expats in the US, and then returned home. I also know tons of US expats married to foreigners (I used to live in Holland for a few years). None of them had any trouble marrying in the US, or travelling to the US with their American spouses, or adjusting while they were travelling here.

There are only a few exceptions where you can't adjust status in the US. One would be if you don't have a valid I-94 Arrival/Departure record. Another would be if you are adjusting on a K visa with a different spouse.

As I said, there are bound to be a few exceptions, and again, that's not even close to what we're talking about in this particular case. The right thing in this particular case is to apply for K-1.
russ
QUOTE(moxcamel @ Nov 10 2007, 05:41 PM) *
As I said, there are bound to be a few exceptions, and again, that's not even close to what we're talking about in this particular case. The right thing in this particular case is to apply for K-1.


The right thing to do is speak with a lawyer.

The wrong thing to do now is file and I-129F petition (K-1). This will complicate travel to the US. This will likely cost her job in Russia (not being able to interview or travel, which necessary to being an MBA). They haven't decided to get married yet, not even a proposal. Not worth complicating her life.

It sounds like a very good job, for a multinational, that will easily translate to a good career in the US. Why mess that up?

Before I got married, I dated women from many other countries (I was an expat for a while, most of my friends lived outside the US anyway).
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