That would TOTALLY suck!!!! I feel bad for the women this has happened to.

Some of the SOs were discovered to be already married to someone else. Sometimes the USC had actually been introduced to these spouses while visiting the foreign country (often the spouses were presented as "cousins," etc.) Several SOs had criminal convictions they had not disclosed, which made them ineligible for a U.S. Visa. Some were found to be juggling several foreign "romances" at the same time, ready to go with whichever one got the paperwork approved first. And some were actually petitioned for by several different USCs -- imagine sending your application to USCIS, only to get a notice that your "beneficiary" is already being processed, by someone else

It was absolutely horrible for the women (and also the men) who were the unsuspecting victims of these frauds. A big part of the consulates' job is to protect American citizens from this kind of deception.



-MK

understandable I believe this.

I just wish they could be more efficient and why do others get no checks at all or very short ones even though they may be bad people, abusive or a just as easily deceiving everyone and they get there visa in a month or two ? It dosen't make sense to me I think everyone should be put through these long amount of checks if it in the name of security and how things must be done not just the chosen few.

Morocco at one time at least was requiring a certificate of being single at one time, for the K1. Do you think those are pretty much legit, or easy to get forged?

But not all cases are the same -- there are all sorts of variables that affect the speed of the processing. Not everyone has a common name, not every case has issues the consulate wants to scrutinize more closely. It's not that people are "chosen" for a long AR or "chosen" for a short one -- it's just the way the cookie crumbles.

I am very sorry that you are having to go through such a long wait. Hopefully whatever is holding up your case will be resolved soon. I want to see more Visas in Hand this month !!!



-MK

thanks.... Im sorry I feel so jaded, I just have little faith in this system... Everyday I log on just hoping to at least see one visa issued... Its kinda slow though .. what can you do. Thanks VJ people for being here

Do you mean the one that the USC provides ? These are merely notarized statements -- the USC swears in front of a notary public that they are free to marry, and the notary stamps it as "yep -- that person swore that." It's not really "proof" of anything, as there is no background check or verification of this statement.

No, there is an official certificate of celibacy issued in Morocco. I know Wadi got one to bring to the interview because he was told by someone that it was required even though I assured him that it was not.

I'm pretty sure that anything can be forged.

Ah.

I bolded the part that I am going to discuss. While I agree this is not a definete indication of fraud let's put ourselves in the shoes of the CO. DISCLAIMER:**Please look at this as open mindedly as possible as I think that it could help any of you in this situation when you proceed. And I am not coming at this blindly, in my work I have had conversations with for example the Chief CO in Cairo, and other Middle Eastern Countries.**

You may think that age has nothing to do with the validity of your relationship however it does play a role. Honestly it does, the CO's have told me this. Ok so back to the roleplaying - You are the CO and 3 days every week you have people who are applying for US marriage visas enter, now mind you marriage visas while difficult to secure also offer the fastest route to permenant residency and citizenship so there is need for extra caution. Every day during these interviews guess what over half the stories are out of these countries: large age difference, met online, visited once - you may have talked for hours on the phone, and chatted and have loads of pictures from your trip to visit but how much weight does that hold in the big picture. Now they are seeing this every day they have these visa interviews - what would you think. Please look at this objectively and not in any one of your situations. Does it suck yea absolutely but their job is not to make you happy (really) their job is to protect the country. Immigration is not a right, nor is it your right as a citizen to bring someone you like here - it's a privelage and you have to prove that you should be allowed this privelage. Also as MK pointed out in a previous post - the CO does find out other things about fiances or even husbands that the US Citizen doesn't know.

So what should you do: a) visit them more than one time, for longer periods of time. be suspicious of their intentions, have those hard discussions, about money (and sending money home), the future, kids (if they say they don't want kids and you're an older woman don't just take it at face value question it), c) learn the culture and see if you are being treated the same way a woman from their culture who was engaged to or married to their son/brother would be (this is a big indication of the validity of the relationship - this is also the reason the CO wants to see pictures of you with his family). Those are just a few of the things that I have been told from CO's.

Marriage fraud happens frequently and it's the CO's job to weed out those cases even if your case seems obvious to you. Not to mention the extra precautions for security and terrorism but I won't delve into that here unless warrented.

**** Please dont' take this as any type of attack - I am offering you information from my personal conversations with CO's regarding such issues - I really do want to help and am not trying to disapoint or discourage any of you - I really wish you all the best*****



http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/mow/news2006/elouerrassi.ple.htm

never mind. already said

Every case is different and they really shouldn't be compared. I don't think that saying that everyone should have long checks and no one should get their visa quickly is a great thing to say.

Like everyone said, each case is different and we really have no insight into what the process is inside of the Consulate.

very well put.

LOL, where did I ever say fraud did not exist? If you read the last line, I clearly said fraud DID exist, the problem is that their ability to detect it is suspect, when too often the accusation is based on mere suspicion, unsubstantiated feelings, etc.

The FAM and the cables spell out how it is supposed to work. Yes, there is a burden of proof on the petitioner to show they qualify for the visa, but there is also a burden of proof on the GOVERNMENT at the embassy level to prove that the fraud exists with some REAL evidence, not mere speculation. This relates to due process, and if they perform some investigation and uncover real evidence of fraud, then that is fine. My problem is when they don't do any real investigation, they ignore evidence presented that conflicts with their preconcieved notions that this is a fraud case, they base decisions on speculation with no evidence whatsoever.

Anyway, this is an rhetorical conversation as we aren't going to solve the problem here. But I hope everyone can recognize there IS a problem and hope that the government will do more to correct it than just tracking it at the NVC.

Here is a section from one of the cables on the point and even mentions a prohibition against "Deep Sixing" petitions, presumably where rather than making a decision where they have no proof, they just put it on a shelf until the couple gives up. That is not allowed, but that they have to mention it speaks to the fact that it happens. http://travel.state.gov/visa/laws/telegram...grams_1415.html

The FAM guidance on revocations makes this point on several occasions -- posts seeking revocations must show the "factual and concrete reasons for revocation." USCIS has asked us to remind consular officers that revocation requests must provide solid, factual evidence of fraud or misrepresentation, evidence that is likely to stand up in a court of law. In the case of sham marriages, for example, 9 FAM 42.43 N2.2 notes that USCIS requires at the least either documentary evidence that money changed hands between the petitioner and beneficiary or factual evidence that would convince "a reasonable person" that the marriage was entered into solely to evade immigration laws. Without such evidence, USCIS will be unlikely to obtain a petition''s revocation if a petitioner chooses to contest a notice of intent to revoke.

No "deep sixing"
5. Posts should not return petitions to USCIS based on mere suspicion or as a substitute for making a decision at post. If the evidence of fraud, misrepresentation, or ineligibility for status is strong enough to lead to a likely revocation, returning the petition would be warranted. However, if post believes the evidence is not likely to lead to a revocation and returning the petition would be a wasted exercise, the petition should not be returned. Returning cases that are only suspect or that appear too complex to figure out is not appropriate and only increases USCIS'' administrative burden and prevents the applicants and petitioners in these cases from obtaining the timely decision on their petitions to which they are entitled.

Thanks for the insights. The fact that the COs have told you that age plays a role in a relationship speaks to a prejudice in their thinking which certainly coincides with the experience of some couples. That one item is a given red flag. Red flags in and of themselves, I don't have a problem with. If it is used to give extra scrutiny or extra investigation, I can understand that. But when it is used as THE REASON for a fraud accusation, that I have a serious problem with.

If you think about it, this particular item is very clearly evident in the initial approved petition. The dates of birth are all over the petition I-130 or I-129F, when it was approved. USCIS doesn't see that as a valid reason to deny the petition, an approved petition is prima facie evidence of a valid relationship and eligibility for a visa. For the embassy then to come back later and deny the visa because of the couples 'irregular' age difference is not a valid evidence or proof. The problem is compounded by the absense of a mediation avenue or complaint structure for the spouse to pursue. They are left in limbo effectively because the CO decided to abuse their discretion.

Anyway, I hate to go on and on, this is obviously a personal sticking point for me. In our case, they accused us of fraud because we had asked questions at the embassy as to what our options were before we filed the petitions and they said because our divorce was discovered at the interview. However, we had provided copies of our divorce papers along with our petition to USCIS long before the interview as well as noting dates and names of our previous marriage on the petition. All of which was considered before it was approved. And I would think asking questions about the process is a normal thing people would do when they need to decide how to proceed.

So, when they invent evidence or simply use speculation without any investigation or allowing a couple to defend themselves against the accusation, that I have a BIG problem with and it happens WAY too often. There really needs to be some better avenue for couples that are wrongly accused to get the situation resolved than just sitting and waiting for years or having to start all over again.

Well the way that I have been explained as that US based processing is really just a clearing house - processing the applications, if there is a security flag that comes up than Bam your out of the pile. The real weight of the argument is in the CO/consulate's hands to prove the relationship and decide whether or not to issue the visa. How many cases have we had where the cases were denied while in the US - I can't think of one. So really I doubt that anyone even assesses the relationship at the USCIS level, the DOS checks security if that's ok then the consulates are in charge of verifying validity. I can think of cases where people have filed K1's gone back gotten married done k3's and been approved - enough proof. Or done K1 or K3 and then moved to their SO's country thus again proving the relationship.

Yes, as I said, there can be valid reasons for further investigation at the embassy level. But you're missing the point of the issue, there is a burden of proof on the GOVERNMENT in accusations of fraud that they are based on REAL EVIDENCE, not mere conjecture.

There have been plenty of petitions denied at the USCIS level where they did not provide evidence to support the petition, could be divorce or marriage certificates, could be having met within the time frame, could be other issues. The fact is that under the law, the approved petition IS 'prima facia' evidence of a valid relationship. Under the law, it takes real evidence of fraud to support a revocation of that approval.

The problem is that for couples in this situation, it can take years to overcome a false accusation, if you can survive the separation.

As the State Dept. cable says,

"Returning cases that are only suspect or that appear too complex to figure out is not appropriate and only increases USCIS'' administrative burden and prevents the applicants and petitioners in these cases from obtaining the timely decision on their petitions to which they are entitled."

There are two completely different and separate issues being discussed here:

#1. Egypt often takes months and months to complete an AR, and many say it does so unfairly.

#2. Morocco sends back a lot of petitions for "invalid relationship", and many say it does so unfairly.



But this passage has nothing to do with a consulate (such as Egypt) taking a long time to complete security checks, investigations, etc. It's instructing consulates not to return petitions without "solid, factual evidence" -- I don't see where it addresses the "Deep Sixing" issue at all.

But how is it that they decide to prove any relationship? That's the part that makes no sense. I know you're not supposed to compare but I know of two other cases almost exactly the same as mine and one got the visa within two months and the other within five months of the interview. Ok so I'm not exactly out of the second one's timeframe but still those two cases in and of themselves show there is a big gap.

And not for nothing and I know I'll get slammed for saying this but if the dude/dudette is not a threat to national security and if the couple is happy, how is it the US Government's duty to decide if the guy is using the girl? Dayum I wish they had done that with my US Citizen ex 'cause then he wouldn't have gotten away with what he did!!! I mean seriously, at some point isn't this good ole fashioned meddling into people's affairs?

If my husband is not a threat to national security, yet he's duping me for all I'm worth, isn't that my problem, since I'm the one signing the form stating that I'm financially responsible for him for the next two years? How is that the US Gov'ts problem?

And as for checking if he's already married, that is done at the courthouse in Cairo where you get married,...and of course he can have three other wives so it's more like they look to see if he has more than four. (he doesn't ...i'm just sayin' )

I'm sorry but these statements are ridiculous. I dont' even know where to start. So we should just let everyone into the US without scrutinizing over the details because in the end if he comes here and leaves his wife or does something illegal it's the woman's burden? Umm no.

I think it's ridiculous that you are the cheerleader for the US Consulate of Cairo. I think it's ridiculous that you had to wait, what....2 whole frikkin days for your AP to get done and you sit here stating that a consulate that you have no personal experience with is doing a bang up job.

Yes to a certain extent it is the woman's burden for trusting in a man who would use her. She should have skills, I would hope, to detect a loser like that and I would also hope that my being a US Citizen affords me some sort of freedom in my relationship where I myself can be allowed to figure that out. If the dude is a felon or a risk to national security then obviously that's something that I would have no way of knowing but if he's just taking me for a ride, well that is MY problem and mine to deal with.

That is the difference Doodle - AR is not generally used for weeding out fraudulant marriages/relationships. I am sure there are exceptions, but if they were concerned about the validity of your marriage - they wouldn't bother sticking you on AR for months- they would most likely return the petition.

On to security clearances, all people take different amounts of time to clear these background checks so if you are truely in AR and it takes one person 5 months, does not mean anything other than it simply took 5 months, same for a 7 month process. It is so individual.

These are two separate procedures. 1. bonafide relationship (interview/home visits) and 2. security clearance (DOS) Its possible they overlap during thr process. All this is just speculation, and I think trying to figure it all out at times is the only thing we have to grasp to to keep our sanity. I can tell you from experience it does the opposite (without sacrificing being diligent on your case).

It becomes the government's business because they are the ones who will be issuing an immigrant visa, with all the rights and privileges that come with it. A fraudulent marriage with a foreigner wouldn't be just *your* problem -- it becomes all of our problem, because the fraudster can use that permanent resident status obtained through fraud to become a citizen, vote in our elections, even file to obtain visas for others. This affects us all.

Luckily, the US government doesn't agree that it's your problem and they shouldn't get involved in your personal life.

Are you saying that Jackie, for example doesn't have skills? Do you not realize that some men will do ANYTHING to get to the US, including pretending to be in love with a USC to get here? And guess what, the woman is usually surprised that they were used.




Thanks MK. Maybe she will listen to you.


Apparently I am the cheerleader for the CO's who make it their job to ruin lives.

You are too caught up in the 'national security' 'threat'. These fraud accusations have NOTHING to do with national security. They are not accusing them of being a terrorist, of having terrorist intentions, of being a member of a terrorist organization, they are being accused WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE of marrying for immigration purposes.

No one said not to scrutinize or not to review the case. I am sure, if this hasn't happened to you, you must think it is all the couples' doing, they said something wrong, they had shifty eyes, they looked suspicious.

As to Egypt and why they take so long, and wide divergence in one case to another. It is most likely a confluence of factors, the Egyptian embassy processes A LOT of visa request, I am sure they are under staffed for the job, they have habitually not had a immigrant visa chief/supervisor for long periods of time and have had heavy turnover, some CO's work faster than others, some CO's have preconceived notions that cause them to delay or deny cases that others would readily approve, inconsistency from one person's view of their job to another without proper supervision and I am sure there are many other factors too.

Did I hear my name? Baby, I got skills you never seen

There is no way of knowing that you are being used for a greencard, til the day he slips off the ring and walks out the door. Was I suprised? Hell ya, all kinds of suprised. Was my 4 year-old granddaughter suprised? Oh yea, she misses Mohammed every damn day. Mohammed should win an Oscar for his stellar performance and also every one of his family, that embraced me for 5 years, only to NEVER call after he left, not one word from them. Mission accomplished, they can all come over now to America, job well done Mohammed.

Looking back, I wish his AP was 14 years instead of 14 days.

Jackie

Hi Sarah!

Absolutely.

Ethnic profiling ? There are lots of other consulates around the world that are considered "high fraud" -- including Mexico, the Dominican Republic, Nigeria, the Philippines, Russia and more. So which ethnicity is being profiled ?

Yeah.....and how on earth are you supposed to "prove" your relationship when they don't even give you the chance to show them any proof......in fact.....they put up big posters around the embassy telling people NOT to provide any evidence to the CO unless asked.........and of course....they never ask.

And honestly.....I don't think it's just the age differences and whether either the beneficiary or petitioner has had previous marriages or children or whether they met online or if they didn't have a formal wedding party or if they feel that cultural differences will make the marriage difficult or or or......

Our case doesn't have any of these so called red flags and we're still waiting and waiting and waiting.....and it REALLY sucks.

And I too would like to think that the embassy is just "doing their job" but I find that VERY difficult to believe when they........on a continuous basis mind you..........can email people information regarding other people's cases, send passports to wrong addresses, lose original documents and ask for them again, send packet 4 letters to beneficiaries after the interview date if ever at all.

It becomes the government's business because they are the ones who will be issuing an immigrant visa, with all the rights and privileges that come with it. A fraudulent marriage with a foreigner wouldn't be just *your* problem -- it becomes all of our problem, because the fraudster can use that permanent resident status obtained through fraud to become a citizen, vote in our elections, even file to obtain visas for others. This affects us all.
[/quote]
You mean that if the government approves a guy who marries me for the green card, I can hold the government accountable for letting him? So all the women who have been used should sue the government for not protecting them against fraud.

I think it's a mix between religious & ethnic profiling......I know that their are many Chrisitan couples who are still in the AP he$$ hole but I definitely think that if you are Christian you'll have an easier AP out of Cairo (if any at all), unless there are other "red flags" present.

which brings it back around to just being a bunch of bureacratic clusterfu**s, not racial profiling or singling some couples out or anything else. I dont understand why thats so hard for anyone to believe, it happens at every level of our government everyday. Our case had a HUGE problem at the EAD/AOS phase that was largely due to what I would classify as ineptitude on the part of the USCIS, all my calls were met with contradictory and often nonsensical answers and it was frustrating as hell. My husband couldnt work for almost a year and it was incredibly difficult for us both. So yes, this kind of crap can happen at any stage of the process..

and anyway, Havent all of us dealt with the DMV at some point? do you think its different because they are in a building overseas??

Not to mention leaving applicants in the waiting room for over four hours before bothering to tell them that the person interviewing them never bothered to show up for work that day!!!!!

Haha good luck with that.

But if you are saying the government's job is to make sure fraudulent marriages from foreigners do not occur then most definitely we should be able to sue the government if our husband's don't have the best of intentions, right?

As a matter of fact I might sue the US government for letting my first marriage to occur. I mean why didn't they detect that he is a con artist?

Yes.....that's true.....and it would make sense if everyone's case was subjected to the bureacratic garbage.......but unfortunately, I don't think that's the case.

Think of it this way:

The government (on the state level) issues drivers licenses, after assuring itself that people actually know how to drive, have the required knowledge of traffic laws, and meet the vision requirements. Now if one of these people runs into your car while speeding, can you sue the government for not protecting you from incompetent drivers ?

Do you honestly think that they could have figure out that he had this in mind? Seriously I can see how they could weed out the OBVIOUS fraudsters such as those very well known in Sharm , etc. but how can they know what is inside a man's mind? maybe Cairo has this super secret agent who has ESP but he only works once/month and they wait for him to come in and read the minds of the men who the interviewer did NOT single out because they had a particular hair up their azz that day.

Too, I do not think just plain ole fraud can be minimized. I just did a cursory look at the consular sheets for the countries that many of the ME/NA SO's come from including( Morocco, Jordan, the Palestinian Territories and Algeria) and none of them had this blurb posted on the Egypt consular sheet:

Many marriages between Egyptians and Americans are successful. However, the Embassy warns against marriage fraud on the part of the American or the Egyptian. Entering into a marriage contract for the principal purpose of facilitating immigration to the United States for an alien is against U.S. law and can result in serious penalties, including fines and imprisonment for the American citizen and the Egyptian. At the same time, it is not uncommon for Egyptians to enter into marriages with Americans solely for immigration purposes. Relationships developed via correspondence, particularly those begun on the Internet, are particularly susceptible to manipulation. The US government urges Americans who meet Egyptians on the Internet or while touring the country, to take the time necessary to get to know them before considering marriage. Unfortunately, the Embassy sees many cases of abuse against American spouses and often the marriages end in divorce when the Egyptian acquires a green card or citizenship in the U.S. These cases invariably occur when the relationship is based mostly on Internet communication and very little face-to-face interaction.

I would say probably at the top of the list of why Cairo may take longer than other ME/NA embassies is just plain fraud.


http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1108.html

right.
like it or not this is the way the consulate is looking at the cases. I think everyone going through Egypt should settle in and expect a long wait. Tell yourself and your SO it will be several months and then just TRY TRY TRY to stop watching the clock....

(((( hugs ))))) to everyone still waiting. hang in there! it will end!

thanks sara good advice... Good info Jodo

Most of our wait was before the interview and not after in the form of AR...but still I clearly remember how hard it was to have our lives on hold, so I feel for everyone waiting, I really do. But I feel like adding here that knowing what I know now about what some of these guys say and do, if I could be a CO in one of the me/na countries, I'm not so sure anybody'd ever get a visa from me. Thats just based on what I've seen a few men do...I can't even imagine how skeptical I would be if I saw these cases day in and out. Anyways, I don't feel like defending the COs, but I can see what would make them extra critical of so many cases. I'm with Jac on the 14 yrs....If you think about it, that CO is the only one with the opportunity to personally sniff out the guys agenda and if your CO smells something, even if they can't immediately identify the smell, you are really depending on them to take a closer look at things, no matter how long that takes. Hope this doesn't upset anyone. Its just my thoughts here.

I remember a while back someone calling Casa after their SO's interview when it was said their petition was being returned to the States. The CO in Casa told this person that it all boiled down to a funding issue. I truly believe (and this is speculation on my part) that Casa would behave just like Egypt when it comes to cases they suspect (months of AR, home visits, etc) if they had the funds (manpower) to do so. Since they don't, they feel they can best serve the petitioner and get their point across by returning numerous petitions.

Like Sarah, I don't feel the CO's are being unfair. I think they are trying to serve their employers (the US citizens) in the best way they can. Do I think they are inept? YES. I work for my local county and the red tape and inability of people drives me crazy.

Twila

Oh mi MENA amigas.....

This is the only place in VJ I read regularly. The short journey of others depresses me.

Why it takes so long.... a mystery. my theory: High demand v resources. Overall the US govt is not staffed for the demand of immigration. And the available resources are allocated to certain countries over others...


our story: We waited 18 mths for an interview in the Dominican Republic and now almost 6 months later we are still on AR. His fingerprints cleared in May, but his common name is not clearing SDO. I read somewhere this process is sometimes manual -- so I imagine someone in Wash DC looking at his pic compared to a stack of thousands... one by one... by ... one....

One piece of hope is the head of Consulate told my congressional representative's liason they don't doubt our relationship, just need the name clearance.


Thank you for letting me vent with this crowd. And good luck to us all.

Peace.