Yes, you can marry without changing your religion, because the holy Qur'an expressly and specifically permits the marriage of a Muslim man to a woman of the Ahl-e-Kitab (people of the Scriptures). The Ahl-e-Kitab is interpreted to mean people of the Jewish or Christian faith. After marriage, it is binding upon the Muslim husband to permit his Christian or Jewish wife to practise her own religion without any hindrance from him whatsoever. On the other hand, the holy Qur'an expressly forbids a Muslim woman from marriage to a non-Muslim man (even if he belongs to the people of Scriptures -- e.g. Christians or Jews).
Generally speaking, the son's parents often prefer to have a Muslim daughter-in-law, mainly for cultural and social considerations -- but not because of religious requirements. This is similar to the practise of parents encouraging their children to marry people with similar racial, linquistic, and social status (such as wealth, nobility, profession, beauty, skin colour and so on). What really matters however, is the good moral character and compatibility of the couple.
Two adults who are able to make their own decisions may do so freely when it comes to choosing a marriage partner, and if they can, they might also try to accommodate the parent's wishes if possible. If it is not possible, then that is too bad. Marriage in Islam is a civil contract made between two consenting parties out of their own free will.
Full Version: Does Islam allow Muslim men to marry Christian women?
My fiancee finally told his mom a little about us, after 1.5 years being together. She asked first if I was a Muslim. Now for the third time he is saying he is not coming to USA because he cannot marry a Christian, etc. all the while telling me how much he loves me which is all so crazy to me, and I am definitely close to giving up. My research says it is okay, but wondered your opinions. I think he is overly influenced by his parents, not the facts. Here is some of what I found.
It might be a mom thing more than an Islam thing, and unfortunately, it could be just fine in Islam but still freak out his family.
QUOTE(dreamscometrue @ Sep 21 2007, 03:11 PM) 
My fiancee finally told his mom a little about us, after 1.5 years being together. She asked first if I was a Muslim. Now for the third time he is saying he is not coming to USA because he cannot marry a Christian, etc. all the while telling me how much he loves me which is all so crazy to me, and I am definitely close to giving up. My research says it is okay, but wondered your opinions. I think he is overly influenced by his parents, not the facts. Here is some of what I found.
Yes, you can marry without changing your religion, because the holy Qur'an expressly and specifically permits the marriage of a Muslim man to a woman of the Ahl-e-Kitab (people of the Scriptures). The Ahl-e-Kitab is interpreted to mean people of the Jewish or Christian faith. After marriage, it is binding upon the Muslim husband to permit his Christian or Jewish wife to practise her own religion without any hindrance from him whatsoever. On the other hand, the holy Qur'an expressly forbids a Muslim woman from marriage to a non-Muslim man (even if he belongs to the people of Scriptures -- e.g. Christians or Jews).
Generally speaking, the son's parents often prefer to have a Muslim daughter-in-law, mainly for cultural and social considerations -- but not because of religious requirements. This is similar to the practise of parents encouraging their children to marry people with similar racial, linquistic, and social status (such as wealth, nobility, profession, beauty, skin colour and so on). What really matters however, is the good moral character and compatibility of the couple.
Two adults who are able to make their own decisions may do so freely when it comes to choosing a marriage partner, and if they can, they might also try to accommodate the parent's wishes if possible. If it is not possible, then that is too bad. Marriage in Islam is a civil contract made between two consenting parties out of their own free will.
While I am no expert as far as my understanding: Yes - it's as simple as that.
It is permissable for a muslim to marry a christian, but i think your research has the answer why the parents are saying no.
My heart goes out to you. I now not all families are the same and not all men have the same relationship with their families, but I would worry about going forward in a marriage with a Moroccan man whose family did not approve.
Did y ou meet the family before?
My heart goes out to you. I now not all families are the same and not all men have the same relationship with their families, but I would worry about going forward in a marriage with a Moroccan man whose family did not approve.
Did y ou meet the family before?
QUOTE(mybackpages @ Sep 21 2007, 05:18 PM)
It is permissable for a muslim to marry a christian, but i think your research has the answer why the parents are saying no.
My heart goes out to you. I now not all families are the same and not all men have the same relationship with their families, but I would worry about going forward in a marriage with a Moroccan man whose family did not approve.
Did y ou meet the family before?
My heart goes out to you. I now not all families are the same and not all men have the same relationship with their families, but I would worry about going forward in a marriage with a Moroccan man whose family did not approve.
Did y ou meet the family before?
No, and that was one of my mistakes, not insisting he tell them early and introduce me when i was there, all of which i wanted.
QUOTE(dreamscometrue @ Sep 21 2007, 05:24 PM)
QUOTE(mybackpages @ Sep 21 2007, 05:18 PM)
It is permissable for a muslim to marry a christian, but i think your research has the answer why the parents are saying no.
My heart goes out to you. I now not all families are the same and not all men have the same relationship with their families, but I would worry about going forward in a marriage with a Moroccan man whose family did not approve.
Did y ou meet the family before?
My heart goes out to you. I now not all families are the same and not all men have the same relationship with their families, but I would worry about going forward in a marriage with a Moroccan man whose family did not approve.
Did y ou meet the family before?
No, and that was one of my mistakes, not insisting he tell them early and introduce me when i was there, all of which i wanted.
Moroccan men all seem to have their own timetable when it comes to explaining things to the parents. so I wouldnt be too concerned that he was hesitant esp since he probably knew his parents would react as they did....
BUT marriage in Morocco is really a family matter, even when it is not arranged. Your situation would corcern me if i were in yor shoes.
QUOTE(dreamscometrue @ Sep 21 2007, 05:11 PM)
My fiancee finally told his mom a little about us, after 1.5 years being together. She asked first if I was a Muslim. Now for the third time he is saying he is not coming to USA because he cannot marry a Christian, etc. all the while telling me how much he loves me which is all so crazy to me, and I am definitely close to giving up. My research says it is okay, but wondered your opinions. I think he is overly influenced by his parents, not the facts. Here is some of what I found.
Yes, you can marry without changing your religion, because the holy Qur'an expressly and specifically permits the marriage of a Muslim man to a woman of the Ahl-e-Kitab (people of the Scriptures). The Ahl-e-Kitab is interpreted to mean people of the Jewish or Christian faith. After marriage, it is binding upon the Muslim husband to permit his Christian or Jewish wife to practise her own religion without any hindrance from him whatsoever. On the other hand, the holy Qur'an expressly forbids a Muslim woman from marriage to a non-Muslim man (even if he belongs to the people of Scriptures -- e.g. Christians or Jews).
Generally speaking, the son's parents often prefer to have a Muslim daughter-in-law, mainly for cultural and social considerations -- but not because of religious requirements. This is similar to the practise of parents encouraging their children to marry people with similar racial, linquistic, and social status (such as wealth, nobility, profession, beauty, skin colour and so on). What really matters however, is the good moral character and compatibility of the couple.
Two adults who are able to make their own decisions may do so freely when it comes to choosing a marriage partner, and if they can, they might also try to accommodate the parent's wishes if possible. If it is not possible, then that is too bad. Marriage in Islam is a civil contract made between two consenting parties out of their own free will.
The answer is simply YES. A Muslim man is allowed to marry Muslim, Christian or Jewish women. I think that he is getting pressure from his family.He should have thought about that before he started this relationship with you. Just a word of caution, Islam does NOT agree with people being forced or pressured to become muslim .You should not ever be forced or pressured to do so. It has to be from your heart that you believe and surrender to Islam. It has to be a chioce. I truly hope that things work out for the best, whether that be with him or not. Take care of yourself. (Salam)
QUOTE(dreamscometrue @ Sep 21 2007, 05:11 PM)
My fiancee finally told his mom a little about us, after 1.5 years being together. She asked first if I was a Muslim. Now for the third time he is saying he is not coming to USA because he cannot marry a Christian, etc. all the while telling me how much he loves me which is all so crazy to me, and I am definitely close to giving up. My research says it is okay, but wondered your opinions. I think he is overly influenced by his parents, not the facts. Here is some of what I found.
Yes, you can marry without changing your religion, because the holy Qur'an expressly and specifically permits the marriage of a Muslim man to a woman of the Ahl-e-Kitab (people of the Scriptures). The Ahl-e-Kitab is interpreted to mean people of the Jewish or Christian faith. After marriage, it is binding upon the Muslim husband to permit his Christian or Jewish wife to practise her own religion without any hindrance from him whatsoever. On the other hand, the holy Qur'an expressly forbids a Muslim woman from marriage to a non-Muslim man (even if he belongs to the people of Scriptures -- e.g. Christians or Jews).
Generally speaking, the son's parents often prefer to have a Muslim daughter-in-law, mainly for cultural and social considerations -- but not because of religious requirements. This is similar to the practise of parents encouraging their children to marry people with similar racial, linquistic, and social status (such as wealth, nobility, profession, beauty, skin colour and so on). What really matters however, is the good moral character and compatibility of the couple.
Two adults who are able to make their own decisions may do so freely when it comes to choosing a marriage partner, and if they can, they might also try to accommodate the parent's wishes if possible. If it is not possible, then that is too bad. Marriage in Islam is a civil contract made between two consenting parties out of their own free will.
Yes and no... The Quran teaches that muslims can marry any faith so as long as they adhere to one God without partners. So christians who worship Jesus for example would not fit that category as in Islam its considered idol worship. The testement of faith in Islam is lailaha illalah (there is no other God except God alone) or one of the ten commandments "you shall have no other God before me"
The Quran recognises not all christians worship Jesus but there are many that do or some even also worship mary. So in a nut shell muslims can marry anyone that is an absolute monotheist with no partners in anyway not mattering what faith.
QUOTE(The_dip_sticks @ Sep 21 2007, 07:16 PM)
Yes and no... The Quran teaches that muslims can marry any faith so as long as they adhere to one God without partners. So christians who worship Jesus for example would not fit that category as in Islam its considered idol worship. The testement of faith in Islam is lailaha illalah (there is no other God except God alone) or one of the ten commandments "you shall have no other God before me"
The Quran recognises not all christians worship Jesus but there are many that do or some even also worship mary. So in a nut shell muslims can marry anyone that is an absolute monotheist with no partners in anyway not mattering what faith.
The Quran recognises not all christians worship Jesus but there are many that do or some even also worship mary. So in a nut shell muslims can marry anyone that is an absolute monotheist with no partners in anyway not mattering what faith.
One of the first questions my fiance asked me when we first started dating was if I was christian, I said yes and asked if it was a problem. He said no, as long as I believe in one God, which I assured him I did. He then asked if I had a problem with him being muslim or eating halal (which he had to explain to me).
He also asked me if I smoked, had tatoos, drank alot, or ate pork. All that on a first date
He was very upfront with me, but continued to hide me from his family for about 1 yr. Even after that he never told his parents... after the reaction of his brothers, he didn't tell anyone else until we were engaged. Now the entire family knows (with the exception of his mother, I think the entire village knows) and are helping him with his english and all the paperwork to turn in before the interview.
Somehow he is still scared to tell his mother and is determined to say nothing until he has arrived in the US and it's permanant, nothing she can do about it. He seems to believe that she will accept me then because she has no choice.... it makes me a little nervous, but the rest of the family is great and very supportive.
But back to the christian thing... it's not really a problem anymore since I am converting (my own choice and he doesn't want to influence me).... the main problem is going to be the mother angry that he refused all the girls she picked out for him and dissapointed she wasn't able to hold him in Egypt by getting him hitched to an Egyptian. IMO the mother is probably the real reason.
QUOTE(polarbear @ Sep 21 2007, 07:32 PM)
QUOTE(The_dip_sticks @ Sep 21 2007, 07:16 PM)
Yes and no... The Quran teaches that muslims can marry any faith so as long as they adhere to one God without partners. So christians who worship Jesus for example would not fit that category as in Islam its considered idol worship. The testement of faith in Islam is lailaha illalah (there is no other God except God alone) or one of the ten commandments "you shall have no other God before me"
The Quran recognises not all christians worship Jesus but there are many that do or some even also worship mary. So in a nut shell muslims can marry anyone that is an absolute monotheist with no partners in anyway not mattering what faith.
The Quran recognises not all christians worship Jesus but there are many that do or some even also worship mary. So in a nut shell muslims can marry anyone that is an absolute monotheist with no partners in anyway not mattering what faith.
One of the first questions my fiance asked me when we first started dating was if I was christian, I said yes and asked if it was a problem. He said no, as long as I believe in one God, which I assured him I did. He then asked if I had a problem with him being muslim or eating halal (which he had to explain to me).
He also asked me if I smoked, had tatoos, drank alot, or ate pork. All that on a first date
He was very upfront with me, but continued to hide me from his family for about 1 yr. Even after that he never told his parents... after the reaction of his brothers, he didn't tell anyone else until we were engaged. Now the entire family knows (with the exception of his mother, I think the entire village knows) and are helping him with his english and all the paperwork to turn in before the interview.
Somehow he is still scared to tell his mother and is determined to say nothing until he has arrived in the US and it's permanant, nothing she can do about it. He seems to believe that she will accept me then because she has no choice.... it makes me a little nervous, but the rest of the family is great and very supportive.
But back to the christian thing... it's not really a problem anymore since I am converting (my own choice and he doesn't want to influence me).... the main problem is going to be the mother angry that he refused all the girls she picked out for him and dissapointed she wasn't able to hold him in Egypt by getting him hitched to an Egyptian. IMO the mother is probably the real reason.
The mother is the reason has nothing to do with islam... its a cultural thing. Most eastern countries consider marriages not just being the man and woman but that both families become as one family. So its cultural and also the mother probably wants someone that can understand her and her culture language ideas etc. Its more of a fear factor on the mothers part of not understanding outside her own. If you can understand this and where she is coming from and she see's that her son loves you, she will come round. But i can understand her son not telling her as she will do all thats in her power to persuade him otherwise because of the reasons I stated. Hope it helps.
Adiel (Mireyas hubby)
allot is cultural..that is, as example: Chechens are too marry Chechens period...so, this may be more of the cultural of the region and less Islam
QUOTE(The_dip_sticks @ Sep 21 2007, 08:47 PM)
The mother is the reason has nothing to do with islam... its a cultural thing. Most eastern countries consider marriages not just being the man and woman but that both families become as one family. So its cultural and also the mother probably wants someone that can understand her and her culture language ideas etc. Its more of a fear factor on the mothers part of not understanding outside her own. If you can understand this and where she is coming from and she see's that her son loves you, she will come round. But i can understand her son not telling her as she will do all thats in her power to persuade him otherwise because of the reasons I stated. Hope it helps.
Adiel (Mireyas hubby)
Adiel (Mireyas hubby)
Yeah, thanks, that helps
inshalla all will be well.
Maybe the mother is afraid that the children will not be brought up as Muslims? Have you discussed children with him and how they will be raised? That's the only thing I can think of that would be a problem since it's definitely allowed.
I don't get the part though where it's ok only if a Christian does not worship Jesus. Catholics are Christians and because they believe in the Trinity, when they worship God they are worshiping the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit............the Son being Jesus. Granted they say God in three persons but still the fact is that a Catholic will be technically worshipping Jesus if they worship God. If they are not and truly believe that they are not then they don't believe in the Trinity which is a HUGE requirement of their faith. Just thought I'd mention that.
I don't get the part though where it's ok only if a Christian does not worship Jesus. Catholics are Christians and because they believe in the Trinity, when they worship God they are worshiping the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit............the Son being Jesus. Granted they say God in three persons but still the fact is that a Catholic will be technically worshipping Jesus if they worship God. If they are not and truly believe that they are not then they don't believe in the Trinity which is a HUGE requirement of their faith. Just thought I'd mention that.
QUOTE(dreamscometrue @ Sep 21 2007, 05:11 PM)
Yes and no... The Quran teaches that muslims can marry any faith so as long as they adhere to one God without partners. So christians who worship Jesus for example would not fit that category as in Islam its considered idol worship. The testement of faith in Islam is lailaha illalah (there is no other God except God alone) or one of the ten commandments "you shall have no other God before me"
The Quran recognises not all christians worship Jesus but there are many that do or some even also worship mary. So in a nut shell muslims can marry anyone that is an absolute monotheist with no partners in anyway not mattering what faith.
The Quran recognises not all christians worship Jesus but there are many that do or some even also worship mary. So in a nut shell muslims can marry anyone that is an absolute monotheist with no partners in anyway not mattering what faith.
The answer is YES. People interpret the Quran in ways that benefit what they choose to believe. I'm sure if you ask a christian laying flowers at the feet of a statue of mary if they worship her, they will say they do not. His mother probably would say that they are. Northern African countries interpret the Quran in ways that often clearly separate themselves from western culture. Which for me loses the spirit of the word of God. But I know that's not the point of this discussion. Like I said, the answer is yes, your fiance can marry a christian without breaking his faith.
This issue is cultural not religious. And if this is how he deals with cultural issues in your relationship he's in for a rude awakening because when he gets to the US they will increase not decrease and if you have children they get even worse. He's really gonna have to work with you and come up with a better way to deal with your differences so that you can lead a more peaceful life.
Respect of the family and respect of the mother is a very strong factor here. Mothers are revered in this culture. My husband told me that whatever a person's parents have done or not done, to disrespect one's parents is a grave sin. He believes it is on par with murder. So even though the prohibition against marrying a Christian may be more cultural, this issue is still at the religious level because it involves respect of the family, especially the mother. In my opinion, you need your fiance's mother's blessing or your fiance will have a conflict inside him which will have to be resolved sooner or later, and the older he gets, the more conflicted he will feel. That said, you may win her over with hard work. If your fiance is willing to work with you, put your energy into getting to know his mother, into trying to communicate with her. Write letters to her if you can. Your fiance will need to translate, and he will have to be 100% onboard to facilitate this for it to work, but it may. She needs to know that you respect her and her beliefs and traditions, and that you will be good to her son.
I know that idea can ruffle feathers (including my own). Here, it's often more accepted, culturally, for someone to ask their fiance(e) to choose between their mother and them, or at least to put the marriage first and expect the inlaws to adjust. And the marriage does need to come first, but there, it's often more complicated since, as someone said, it's not a marriage between two individuals but instead between two families. It's a gut-level issue, so you can't change it. But if you are both willing to put the energy into this, you may be able to work "within the system" to get what you both want (without compromising your own deeply-held beliefs -- that is very important).
All just MHO. Best wishes.
I know that idea can ruffle feathers (including my own). Here, it's often more accepted, culturally, for someone to ask their fiance(e) to choose between their mother and them, or at least to put the marriage first and expect the inlaws to adjust. And the marriage does need to come first, but there, it's often more complicated since, as someone said, it's not a marriage between two individuals but instead between two families. It's a gut-level issue, so you can't change it. But if you are both willing to put the energy into this, you may be able to work "within the system" to get what you both want (without compromising your own deeply-held beliefs -- that is very important).
All just MHO. Best wishes.
QUOTE(dreamscometrue @ Sep 21 2007, 05:11 PM)
My fiancee finally told his mom a little about us, after 1.5 years being together. She asked first if I was a Muslim. Now for the third time he is saying he is not coming to USA because he cannot marry a Christian, etc. all the while telling me how much he loves me which is all so crazy to me, and I am definitely close to giving up. My research says it is okay, but wondered your opinions. I think he is overly influenced by his parents, not the facts. Here is some of what I found.
Maybe he is right that He can't do it. Doesn't matter if its allowed, It doesn't have to be his parents, or his culture. It could be that he feels strongly about this. Maybe he is looking at the future predicting (correctly) that it is going to be hard to head a marriage and raise a family with this difference. Thats actually very responsible of him to consider that and tell you before he comes here. Maybe he is wanting you to take a closer look at islam.
...an maybe his parents chose some girl and they are making him feel guilty.
good luck to you guys
QUOTE(doodlebug @ Sep 21 2007, 10:46 PM)
Maybe the mother is afraid that the children will not be brought up as Muslims? Have you discussed children with him and how they will be raised? That's the only thing I can think of that would be a problem since it's definitely allowed.
I don't get the part though where it's ok only if a Christian does not worship Jesus. Catholics are Christians and because they believe in the Trinity, when they worship God they are worshiping the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit............the Son being Jesus. Granted they say God in three persons but still the fact is that a Catholic will be technically worshipping Jesus if they worship God. If they are not and truly believe that they are not then they don't believe in the Trinity which is a HUGE requirement of their faith. Just thought I'd mention that.
I don't get the part though where it's ok only if a Christian does not worship Jesus. Catholics are Christians and because they believe in the Trinity, when they worship God they are worshiping the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit............the Son being Jesus. Granted they say God in three persons but still the fact is that a Catholic will be technically worshipping Jesus if they worship God. If they are not and truly believe that they are not then they don't believe in the Trinity which is a HUGE requirement of their faith. Just thought I'd mention that.
Yes you are absolutely right. This is a major factor in the Quran itself, the whole lesson of the Quran is lailahaillala (there is no God except God alone). So to believe in the trinity according to the Quran is a big no no and the Quran calls them pagans. This is directly from the Quran:
[4:171] O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.
[4:172] The Messiah would never disdain from being a servant of GOD, nor would the closest angels. Those who disdain from worshipping Him, and are too arrogant to submit, He will summon them all before Him.
[5:73] Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is a third of a trinity. There is no god except the one god. Unless they refrain from saying this, those who disbelieve among them will incur a painful retribution.
Adiel (mireyas hubby)
QUOTE(Bassi and Zainab @ Sep 21 2007, 10:57 PM)
QUOTE(dreamscometrue @ Sep 21 2007, 05:11 PM)
Yes and no... The Quran teaches that muslims can marry any faith so as long as they adhere to one God without partners. So christians who worship Jesus for example would not fit that category as in Islam its considered idol worship. The testement of faith in Islam is lailaha illalah (there is no other God except God alone) or one of the ten commandments "you shall have no other God before me"
The Quran recognises not all christians worship Jesus but there are many that do or some even also worship mary. So in a nut shell muslims can marry anyone that is an absolute monotheist with no partners in anyway not mattering what faith.
The Quran recognises not all christians worship Jesus but there are many that do or some even also worship mary. So in a nut shell muslims can marry anyone that is an absolute monotheist with no partners in anyway not mattering what faith.
The answer is YES. People interpret the Quran in ways that benefit what they choose to believe. I'm sure if you ask a christian laying flowers at the feet of a statue of mary if they worship her, they will say they do not. His mother probably would say that they are. Northern African countries interpret the Quran in ways that often clearly separate themselves from western culture. Which for me loses the spirit of the word of God. But I know that's not the point of this discussion. Like I said, the answer is yes, your fiance can marry a christian without breaking his faith.
This issue is cultural not religious. And if this is how he deals with cultural issues in your relationship he's in for a rude awakening because when he gets to the US they will increase not decrease and if you have children they get even worse. He's really gonna have to work with you and come up with a better way to deal with your differences so that you can lead a more peaceful life.
Its not yes its yes and no as i stated before, this is from the Quran:
[5:75] The Messiah, son of Mary, is no more than a messenger like the messengers before him, and his mother was a saint. Both of them used to eat the food. Note how we explain the revelations for them, and note how they still deviate!
[5:76] Say, "Would you worship beside GOD powerless idols who can neither harm you, nor benefit you? GOD is Hearer, Omniscient."
As you can see the Quran says worshipping them is idol worship and another verse says this:
[2:221] Do not marry idolatresses unless they believe; a believing woman is better than an idolatress, even if you like her. Nor shall you give your daughters in marriage to idolatrous men, unless they believe. A believing man is better than an idolater, even if you like him.
this also goes for men and women. not just can men marry another faith.
Adiel (Mireya's hubby)
Christians, even Catholics, do not worship Mary. Nope, nope, nope. But Jesus is God for Christians, and there's really no way around that. A Christian who just accepts Jesus as a prophet wouldn't be a very good Christian under most sects.
But none of that really matters in this case except to the extent that it makes an interfaith marriage difficult, and that it's not just as easy as saying 'Muslims can marry Christians as long as they don't believe in the divinity of Christ', as that excludes a lot of people. The problem's his mother and HER interpretation of what her good boy is allowed to do, and I fear that even if the facts of Islam differ from what she thinks, this isn't going to be a problem solved with philosophy.
But none of that really matters in this case except to the extent that it makes an interfaith marriage difficult, and that it's not just as easy as saying 'Muslims can marry Christians as long as they don't believe in the divinity of Christ', as that excludes a lot of people. The problem's his mother and HER interpretation of what her good boy is allowed to do, and I fear that even if the facts of Islam differ from what she thinks, this isn't going to be a problem solved with philosophy.
QUOTE(Caladan @ Sep 22 2007, 09:23 AM)
Christians, even Catholics, do not worship Mary. Nope, nope, nope. But Jesus is God for Christians, and there's really no way around that. A Christian who just accepts Jesus as a prophet wouldn't be a very good Christian under most sects.
But none of that really matters in this case except to the extent that it makes an interfaith marriage difficult, and that it's not just as easy as saying 'Muslims can marry Christians as long as they don't believe in the divinity of Christ', as that excludes a lot of people. The problem's his mother and HER interpretation of what her good boy is allowed to do, and I fear that even if the facts of Islam differ from what she thinks, this isn't going to be a problem solved with philosophy.
But none of that really matters in this case except to the extent that it makes an interfaith marriage difficult, and that it's not just as easy as saying 'Muslims can marry Christians as long as they don't believe in the divinity of Christ', as that excludes a lot of people. The problem's his mother and HER interpretation of what her good boy is allowed to do, and I fear that even if the facts of Islam differ from what she thinks, this isn't going to be a problem solved with philosophy.
Sure.. Im just giving prespective of Islamic teachings... even though paying homage or asking Mary to send your prayers to jesus because he is too busy or something is a form of worship, besides paying homage to mary is a no no no according to the bible:
Luke 4:8 when he says, "You shall do homage to the Lord your God; Him alone shall you adore."
Adiel (Mireya's hubby)
I don't know the circumstances of your visit to Morocco or why you didn't meet his parents but I see that you have already filed your I-129F here. I think it was a big mistake not meeting his family while you were there.
My experience with parents and approving or disapproving of a relationship don't have to do with religion but that my parents didn't know what to think about me going ot Morocco to visit someone. It was a very hard 2 years before my parents met Hicham. Once Hicham got here and they spent time together everything changed completely. All of their fears and misunderstandings went out the window. He is part of the family now in every sense.
I know that this has nothing to do with religion but I think sometimes it really helps to meet if possible and get to know eachother before any rash decisions or judgements are made.
That might not pertain to you but I am sorry that this is happening and I wish you the best of luck.
My experience with parents and approving or disapproving of a relationship don't have to do with religion but that my parents didn't know what to think about me going ot Morocco to visit someone. It was a very hard 2 years before my parents met Hicham. Once Hicham got here and they spent time together everything changed completely. All of their fears and misunderstandings went out the window. He is part of the family now in every sense.
I know that this has nothing to do with religion but I think sometimes it really helps to meet if possible and get to know eachother before any rash decisions or judgements are made.
That might not pertain to you but I am sorry that this is happening and I wish you the best of luck.
QUOTE(The_dip_sticks @ Sep 22 2007, 08:18 AM)
[5:73] Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is a third of a trinity. There is no god except the one god. Unless they refrain from saying this, those who disbelieve among them will incur a painful retribution.
so does that mean catholics are pagans?
QUOTE(charlesandnessa @ Sep 22 2007, 11:44 AM)
QUOTE(The_dip_sticks @ Sep 22 2007, 08:18 AM)
[5:73] Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is a third of a trinity. There is no god except the one god. Unless they refrain from saying this, those who disbelieve among them will incur a painful retribution.
so does that mean catholics are pagans?
The interpretation is different in the Qurans that I use.
The one that I have downloaded on this computer (from Islam Solutions) and the one that my husband gave me, "The Noble Qur'an in the English Language" by Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din al-Hilali and Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan says:
5:73 Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no ilah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilah (God-Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them.
Another one I have "The Meaning of the Holy Qur'an" by Abdullah Yusuf Ali says:
5:73 They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.
Neither states they are pagans.
QUOTE(doodlebug @ Sep 22 2007, 11:47 AM)
QUOTE(charlesandnessa @ Sep 22 2007, 11:44 AM)
QUOTE(The_dip_sticks @ Sep 22 2007, 08:18 AM)
[5:73] Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is a third of a trinity. There is no god except the one god. Unless they refrain from saying this, those who disbelieve among them will incur a painful retribution.
so does that mean catholics are pagans?
The interpretation is different in the Qurans that I use.
The one that I have downloaded on this computer (from Islam Solutions) and the one that my husband gave me, "The Noble Qur'an in the English Language" by Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din al-Hilali and Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan says:
5:73 Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no ilah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilah (God-Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them.
Another one I have "The Meaning of the Holy Qur'an" by Abdullah Yusuf Ali says:
5:73 They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.
Neither states they are pagans.
Yes agreed the word can be trabslated as disbelievers
QUOTE(dreamscometrue @ Sep 21 2007, 05:11 PM)
My fiancee finally told his mom a little about us, after 1.5 years being together. She asked first if I was a Muslim. Now for the third time he is saying he is not coming to USA because he cannot marry a Christian, etc. all the while telling me how much he loves me which is all so crazy to me, and I am definitely close to giving up. My research says it is okay, but wondered your opinions. I think he is overly influenced by his parents, not the facts. Here is some of what I found.
Yes, you can marry without changing your religion, because the holy Qur'an expressly and specifically permits the marriage of a Muslim man to a woman of the Ahl-e-Kitab (people of the Scriptures). The Ahl-e-Kitab is interpreted to mean people of the Jewish or Christian faith. After marriage, it is binding upon the Muslim husband to permit his Christian or Jewish wife to practise her own religion without any hindrance from him whatsoever. On the other hand, the holy Qur'an expressly forbids a Muslim woman from marriage to a non-Muslim man (even if he belongs to the people of Scriptures -- e.g. Christians or Jews).
Generally speaking, the son's parents often prefer to have a Muslim daughter-in-law, mainly for cultural and social considerations -- but not because of religious requirements. This is similar to the practise of parents encouraging their children to marry people with similar racial, linquistic, and social status (such as wealth, nobility, profession, beauty, skin colour and so on). What really matters however, is the good moral character and compatibility of the couple.
Two adults who are able to make their own decisions may do so freely when it comes to choosing a marriage partner, and if they can, they might also try to accommodate the parent's wishes if possible. If it is not possible, then that is too bad. Marriage in Islam is a civil contract made between two consenting parties out of their own free will.
OK as has already been said, the issue is not what is "permitted in Islam," but rather what the family (in particular, it seems, the mother) expects him to do.
This man asked you to marry him, then later said (and even repeating it three times) that he could not ? It seems he is telling you quite clearly that he is unable to fulfill the engagement. He may indeed love you dearly, but maybe he didn't realize at first how much his mother would oppose the idea (although the fact that he hid your relationship from her for a year and a half is a big hint that he suspected she would not approve.) Anyway, he is saying without ambiguity now that he cannot marry without his family agreeing to it.
It's possible that he may change his mind later; however I think you have no choice at this point but to withdraw your fiance petition, as one of the requirements is that you both intend to marry each other. Of course let him know that you must do this.
I don't think it's a good idea to try to debate the issue with him, whether on religious grounds or any other. Family expectations are an extremely serious thing in ME/NA. A parent's vehement and openly expressed disapproval of a proposed marriage is not an easy thing for a ME/NA person to defy. There are some who will disregard the "family veto," but not so many. I think the man is trying to be very honest and frank with you -- it seems he does not wish to lead you down the primrose path, while you cling to false hopes. So you have to respect him for that, even if it breaks your heart to hear it.
You have to ask yourself: are you satisfied with being his "friend" or "girlfriend" without marriage ? You also need to be frank and honest with him about your feelings. And what about if and when he decides to marry another who IS deemed "acceptible" by his family ? So I think withdrawing the petition, and also maybe cooling off your relationship might be in order at this time. Maybe he needs some time to reflect without distraction, to think about what he really wants.
I'm sorry for the pain you must feel over this. Wish you all the best.
-MK
QUOTE(wife_of_mahmoud @ Sep 22 2007, 02:08 PM)
This man asked you to marry him, then later said (and even repeating it three times) that he could not ? It seems he is telling you quite clearly that he is unable to fulfill the engagement. He may indeed love you dearly, but maybe he didn't realize at first how much his mother would oppose the idea (although the fact that he hid your relationship from her for a year and a half is a big hint that he suspected she would not approve.) Anyway, he is saying without ambiguity now that he cannot marry without his family agreeing to it.
It's possible that he may change his mind later; however I think you have no choice at this point but to withdraw your fiance petition, as one of the requirements is that you both intend to marry each other. Of course let him know that you must do this.
I don't think it's a good idea to try to debate the issue with him, whether on religious grounds or any other. Family expectations are an extremely serious thing in ME/NA. A parent's vehement and openly expressed disapproval of a proposed marriage is not an easy thing for a ME/NA person to defy. There are some who will disregard the "family veto," but not so many. I think the man is trying to be very honest and frank with you -- it seems he does not wish to lead you down the primrose path, while you cling to false hopes. So you have to respect him for that, even if it breaks your heart to hear it.
You have to ask yourself: are you satisfied with being his "friend" or "girlfriend" without marriage ? You also need to be frank and honest with him about your feelings. And what about if and when he decides to marry another who IS deemed "acceptible" by his family ? So I think withdrawing the petition, and also maybe cooling off your relationship might be in order at this time. Maybe he needs some time to reflect without distraction, to think about what he really wants.
I'm sorry for the pain you must feel over this. Wish you all the best.
-MK
It's possible that he may change his mind later; however I think you have no choice at this point but to withdraw your fiance petition, as one of the requirements is that you both intend to marry each other. Of course let him know that you must do this.
I don't think it's a good idea to try to debate the issue with him, whether on religious grounds or any other. Family expectations are an extremely serious thing in ME/NA. A parent's vehement and openly expressed disapproval of a proposed marriage is not an easy thing for a ME/NA person to defy. There are some who will disregard the "family veto," but not so many. I think the man is trying to be very honest and frank with you -- it seems he does not wish to lead you down the primrose path, while you cling to false hopes. So you have to respect him for that, even if it breaks your heart to hear it.
You have to ask yourself: are you satisfied with being his "friend" or "girlfriend" without marriage ? You also need to be frank and honest with him about your feelings. And what about if and when he decides to marry another who IS deemed "acceptible" by his family ? So I think withdrawing the petition, and also maybe cooling off your relationship might be in order at this time. Maybe he needs some time to reflect without distraction, to think about what he really wants.
I'm sorry for the pain you must feel over this. Wish you all the best.
-MK
I agree with alot of this.
One thing I did not disclose earlier about my SO is that he was interested in a french girl about 5 years ago, but ended up breaking it off due to family pressures and extreem opposition from his mother - and he was living in another country while this was going on, not living in the same household. Aparently there were other problems at the time (she couldn't handle the pressure and didn't want to meet the family because of this) but I have a feeling that all came about because of his mother. I am not really suprised that he doesn't want to take any chances with me and didn't tell anyone until we were engaged.
His mother also started parading other girls in front of him when he returned home over a year ago and trying to get him to agree to an arranged marriage bc she decided that was the only thing that was going to keep him in Egypt (he hadn't been home in 6 years). We were not engaged at this time, the rest of the family did not know about me, and we weren't even talking much for 3 months (outside cercumstances -sp?). I found out about this afterward when we started talking again. Obviously he didn't accept, but his mother was apparently very harsh on him for it and even stole his passport so that he could not return to France (and me). She was trying to force him, and it wasn't even about a fiance, just that he wanted to marry for love.
Don't underestimate family pressures and expectations for a MENA man.
QUOTE(polarbear @ Sep 22 2007, 01:30 PM)
Don't underestimate family pressures and expectations for a MENA man.
Can we say this again? and louder?
This is one of the realities of a US-MENA relationship. If it is not something you understand, accept or agree with, you are likey to face some rough patches as the marriage goes forward.
QUOTE(Caladan @ Sep 22 2007, 05:23 PM)
Christians, even Catholics, do not worship Mary. Nope, nope, nope. But Jesus is God for Christians, and there's really no way around that. A Christian who just accepts Jesus as a prophet wouldn't be a very good Christian under most sects.
But none of that really matters in this case except to the extent that it makes an interfaith marriage difficult, and that it's not just as easy as saying 'Muslims can marry Christians as long as they don't believe in the divinity of Christ', as that excludes a lot of people. The problem's his mother and HER interpretation of what her good boy is allowed to do, and I fear that even if the facts of Islam differ from what she thinks, this isn't going to be a problem solved with philosophy.
But none of that really matters in this case except to the extent that it makes an interfaith marriage difficult, and that it's not just as easy as saying 'Muslims can marry Christians as long as they don't believe in the divinity of Christ', as that excludes a lot of people. The problem's his mother and HER interpretation of what her good boy is allowed to do, and I fear that even if the facts of Islam differ from what she thinks, this isn't going to be a problem solved with philosophy.
You always hit the points perfectly, Caladan. How do you do that?
The question about allowing marriages has already been answered. It is most likely a family pressure situation and something very powerful is going on that the OP may not be aware of.
2nd topic that came up here (long post - sorry):
Christians worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost; but the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten; the Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten; the Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
(Taken from a creed from the early church's teachings)
In simpler terms, it is that there are three Persons who can accurately be called 'the One God' or 'three persons in one ultimate unit'.
RATIONALIZING THE TRINITY
We are to worship one God and one God only, but that God is not limited to our logics and should not be cut down to size to fit into our rational thinking.
Take a look at Isaiah 40:18:
To whom, then, will you compare God? What image will you compare him to?
or Isaiah 46.5:
"To whom will you compare me or count me equal? To whom will you liken me that we may be compared?
Also, read these descriptions and biblical assertions. (I KNOW SOME WILL SAY THE BIBLE IS CORRUPT, AND THAT MAY BE TRUE. PLEASE REFER TO MY LAST PARAGRAPHS. PLUS, THERE ARE ARABIC RESOURCES THAT HAVE SIMILAR STATEMENTS AND COME FROM BOOKS OTHER THAN THE BIBLE)
John 1 - "The Word was WITH God and the Word was GOD" - surprisingly simple statement of pure-and-simple plurality-in-unity. And, this Word (i.e. Jesus Christ) prayed to the Father in heaven. (numerous places)
This Jesus would send the Holy Spirit from the Father in heaven, after his departure from earth. (John 14-17)
This Spirit could be grieved (Ephs 4) and lied to (Acts 5), and made sovereign decisions (I Cor 12:11 etc.)
These three are listed co-equally and co-ordinately in the baptism (Matt 28) and the Benediction (2 Cor 13:14).
Old Testament passages demonstrate over and again that the Angel of YHWH 'was' YHWH and 'was with YHWH'; and that the Spirit of YHWH 'was' YHWH and 'was with YHWH'. Old Testament passages describe a messianic figure that is super-human, super-angelic (agreed to even by non-Christian rabbinic writings), and is even called YHWH in a few verses.
OPPOSITION TO THE TRINITY
There are objections to this Judeo-Christian belief, but those who oppose try to philosophize and rationalize God down into our image.
Frankly, one would expect a "God" to be more complex than everything He created! One would expect SOME sort of duality or overlapping, but for one to say that God COULD NOT have three interior Persons would be VERY intellectually presumptuous (especially us being mortal creatures). To say that a God who could speak a universe into existence HAS TO BE no more complex in His nature than humans are would be GROUNDLESS assumption/speculation of the most ludicrous sort.
JESUS=GOD?
I know of at least one verse from the Quran that says that Jesus arose after his death (Surah 19:30-35). Mortal men can't do that. Most of Jesus' miracles were performed without invocation; without calling on any type of higher power. When he said it, it was done. Just the way the Quran says that God wills in Surah 3:47 and 3:59. Can a mortal will miracles into existence?
He was a Jew probably from Galilee who became, by birth, adoption, miraculously or otherwise, the sacrificial lamb, who died in order to atone for the sins of people. At best he is God who leaves eternity to become a finite person with all the frailties of humans, including death, the incarnation being a part of his atoning work. At the very least he was a Jewish radical among a lot of Jewish radicals who gathered enough people around him so that the message he came to share did not die with his death, but grew in a strangely fertile Roman and Mediterranean environment. At any rate, I accept a supernatural reason for the spread of the gospel about a supernatural being whose mission is to save the creation from its separateness from God.
Hard evidence? Nope. But, I find the fact that the church spread the gospel, and that early Christians and Christianity survived, evidence of its fulfilling God's intentions.
Not to get into a huge Christian debate here but you reminded me of my beginning doubtful days when you showed how Jesus said he would bring the Holy Spirit after he departed from this Earth. One of the first and strongest things that hit me was how could John the Baptist baptize Jesus with the Holy Spirit if it hadn't come yet, since it was going to come after Jesus departed the Earth.
Another very strong thing that hit me was if Jesus *is* God, why would he have to pray *to* God in the garden of Gethsemane.
Again not to debate but your post just reminded me of that.
Another very strong thing that hit me was if Jesus *is* God, why would he have to pray *to* God in the garden of Gethsemane.
Again not to debate but your post just reminded me of that.
QUOTE(monnik @ Sep 23 2007, 12:00 AM)
JESUS=GOD?
I know of at least one verse from the Quran that says that Jesus arose after his death (Surah 19:30-35). Mortal men can't do that. Most of Jesus' miracles were performed without invocation; without calling on any type of higher power. When he said it, it was done. Just the way the Quran says that God wills in Surah 3:47 and 3:59. Can a mortal will miracles into existence?
I know of at least one verse from the Quran that says that Jesus arose after his death (Surah 19:30-35). Mortal men can't do that. Most of Jesus' miracles were performed without invocation; without calling on any type of higher power. When he said it, it was done. Just the way the Quran says that God wills in Surah 3:47 and 3:59. Can a mortal will miracles into existence?
Actually when Surah 19:33 states "So Peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the Day that I shall be raised up to life (again)", the raising up again is what Christians refer to as the second coming. That's actually something we agree with which is that when judgement day comes, Jesus, pbuh, will be raised from the dead and come to Earth. It's not talking about what I think you're referring to which is the resurrection that is celebrated in Easter.
QUOTE(monnik @ Sep 22 2007, 11:00 PM)
QUOTE(Caladan @ Sep 22 2007, 05:23 PM)
Christians, even Catholics, do not worship Mary. Nope, nope, nope. But Jesus is God for Christians, and there's really no way around that. A Christian who just accepts Jesus as a prophet wouldn't be a very good Christian under most sects.
But none of that really matters in this case except to the extent that it makes an interfaith marriage difficult, and that it's not just as easy as saying 'Muslims can marry Christians as long as they don't believe in the divinity of Christ', as that excludes a lot of people. The problem's his mother and HER interpretation of what her good boy is allowed to do, and I fear that even if the facts of Islam differ from what she thinks, this isn't going to be a problem solved with philosophy.
But none of that really matters in this case except to the extent that it makes an interfaith marriage difficult, and that it's not just as easy as saying 'Muslims can marry Christians as long as they don't believe in the divinity of Christ', as that excludes a lot of people. The problem's his mother and HER interpretation of what her good boy is allowed to do, and I fear that even if the facts of Islam differ from what she thinks, this isn't going to be a problem solved with philosophy.
You always hit the points perfectly, Caladan. How do you do that?
The question about allowing marriages has already been answered. It is most likely a family pressure situation and something very powerful is going on that the OP may not be aware of.
2nd topic that came up here (long post - sorry):
Christians worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost; but the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten; the Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten; the Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
(Taken from a creed from the early church's teachings)
In simpler terms, it is that there are three Persons who can accurately be called 'the One God' or 'three persons in one ultimate unit'.
RATIONALIZING THE TRINITY
We are to worship one God and one God only, but that God is not limited to our logics and should not be cut down to size to fit into our rational thinking.
Take a look at Isaiah 40:18:
To whom, then, will you compare God? What image will you compare him to?
or Isaiah 46.5:
"To whom will you compare me or count me equal? To whom will you liken me that we may be compared?
Also, read these descriptions and biblical assertions. (I KNOW SOME WILL SAY THE BIBLE IS CORRUPT, AND THAT MAY BE TRUE. PLEASE REFER TO MY LAST PARAGRAPHS. PLUS, THERE ARE ARABIC RESOURCES THAT HAVE SIMILAR STATEMENTS AND COME FROM BOOKS OTHER THAN THE BIBLE)
John 1 - "The Word was WITH God and the Word was GOD" - surprisingly simple statement of pure-and-simple plurality-in-unity. And, this Word (i.e. Jesus Christ) prayed to the Father in heaven. (numerous places)
This Jesus would send the Holy Spirit from the Father in heaven, after his departure from earth. (John 14-17)
This Spirit could be grieved (Ephs 4) and lied to (Acts 5), and made sovereign decisions (I Cor 12:11 etc.)
These three are listed co-equally and co-ordinately in the baptism (Matt 28) and the Benediction (2 Cor 13:14).
Old Testament passages demonstrate over and again that the Angel of YHWH 'was' YHWH and 'was with YHWH'; and that the Spirit of YHWH 'was' YHWH and 'was with YHWH'. Old Testament passages describe a messianic figure that is super-human, super-angelic (agreed to even by non-Christian rabbinic writings), and is even called YHWH in a few verses.
OPPOSITION TO THE TRINITY
There are objections to this Judeo-Christian belief, but those who oppose try to philosophize and rationalize God down into our image.
Frankly, one would expect a "God" to be more complex than everything He created! One would expect SOME sort of duality or overlapping, but for one to say that God COULD NOT have three interior Persons would be VERY intellectually presumptuous (especially us being mortal creatures). To say that a God who could speak a universe into existence HAS TO BE no more complex in His nature than humans are would be GROUNDLESS assumption/speculation of the most ludicrous sort.
JESUS=GOD?
I know of at least one verse from the Quran that says that Jesus arose after his death (Surah 19:30-35). Mortal men can't do that. Most of Jesus' miracles were performed without invocation; without calling on any type of higher power. When he said it, it was done. Just the way the Quran says that God wills in Surah 3:47 and 3:59. Can a mortal will miracles into existence?
He was a Jew probably from Galilee who became, by birth, adoption, miraculously or otherwise, the sacrificial lamb, who died in order to atone for the sins of people. At best he is God who leaves eternity to become a finite person with all the frailties of humans, including death, the incarnation being a part of his atoning work. At the very least he was a Jewish radical among a lot of Jewish radicals who gathered enough people around him so that the message he came to share did not die with his death, but grew in a strangely fertile Roman and Mediterranean environment. At any rate, I accept a supernatural reason for the spread of the gospel about a supernatural being whose mission is to save the creation from its separateness from God.
Hard evidence? Nope. But, I find the fact that the church spread the gospel, and that early Christians and Christianity survived, evidence of its fulfilling God's intentions.
can you just make it easy and show us the word trinity in the bible, that would be great
The_dip_sticks, I hope your interpretation of Islam is better than your interpretation of Christianity, because you continually set yourself up as providing expert advice on both and you're continually getting Christianity wrong. Christianity is not a one book religion. Christians don't believe that the Bible was dictated by God. Instead it was a book put together by men who were inspired by God, and who had to decide which candidate letters and books were inspired by God, and which of the candidate books were false. And the creed of the faith is part of the faith, and it includes trying to figure out what sort of person Christ was. Christians don't believe that the Bible is the dictated word of God, and they disagree about how much of it meant as literally true.... but the important thing is that it's not meant to be read without thinking about it.
This lead to a lot of philosophy. And no, it doesn't say the word 'Trinity' in the Bible. (From what I recall, it doesn't give you specific instructions on how to do your prayers in the Quran, either... is that supposed to be a knockdown argument?) But it does say a lot of things, which monnik cited, about the nature of Jesus, the nature of God, and people argued that the best way to understand this was a triune God. There is only one God in Christianity. But God has three aspects. And there's been a lot of ink spilled on how to reconcile the Trinity with the idea that God is one.
You may not find it convincing, and that's fine, but saying 'omg where does it say trinity in the Bible' is really missing the point. Even the medieval Muslims had more of an argument than 'it isn't in the Bible silly Christians!'
This lead to a lot of philosophy. And no, it doesn't say the word 'Trinity' in the Bible. (From what I recall, it doesn't give you specific instructions on how to do your prayers in the Quran, either... is that supposed to be a knockdown argument?) But it does say a lot of things, which monnik cited, about the nature of Jesus, the nature of God, and people argued that the best way to understand this was a triune God. There is only one God in Christianity. But God has three aspects. And there's been a lot of ink spilled on how to reconcile the Trinity with the idea that God is one.
You may not find it convincing, and that's fine, but saying 'omg where does it say trinity in the Bible' is really missing the point. Even the medieval Muslims had more of an argument than 'it isn't in the Bible silly Christians!'
QUOTE(monnik @ Sep 22 2007, 11:00 PM)
JESUS=GOD?
I know of at least one verse from the Quran that says that Jesus arose after his death (Surah 19:30-35). Mortal men can't do that. Most of Jesus' miracles were performed without invocation; without calling on any type of higher power. When he said it, it was done. Just the way the Quran says that God wills in Surah 3:47 and 3:59. Can a mortal will miracles into existence?
I know of at least one verse from the Quran that says that Jesus arose after his death (Surah 19:30-35). Mortal men can't do that. Most of Jesus' miracles were performed without invocation; without calling on any type of higher power. When he said it, it was done. Just the way the Quran says that God wills in Surah 3:47 and 3:59. Can a mortal will miracles into existence?
Jesus was mortal. it was God who made all the things you point to happen. The Quran does not say Jesus rose after death. The death never occurerd. God is great.
QUOTE(Caladan @ Sep 23 2007, 09:01 AM)
The_dip_sticks, I hope your interpretation of Islam is better than your interpretation of Christianity, because you continually set yourself up as providing expert advice on both and you're continually getting Christianity wrong. Christianity is not a one book religion. Christians don't believe that the Bible was dictated by God. Instead it was a book put together by men who were inspired by God, and who had to decide which candidate letters and books were inspired by God, and which of the candidate books were false. And the creed of the faith is part of the faith, and it includes trying to figure out what sort of person Christ was. Christians don't believe that the Bible is the dictated word of God, and they disagree about how much of it meant as literally true.... but the important thing is that it's not meant to be read without thinking about it.
This lead to a lot of philosophy. And no, it doesn't say the word 'Trinity' in the Bible. (From what I recall, it doesn't give you specific instructions on how to do your prayers in the Quran, either... is that supposed to be a knockdown argument?) But it does say a lot of things, which monnik cited, about the nature of Jesus, the nature of God, and people argued that the best way to understand this was a triune God. There is only one God in Christianity. But God has three aspects. And there's been a lot of ink spilled on how to reconcile the Trinity with the idea that God is one.
You may not find it convincing, and that's fine, but saying 'omg where does it say trinity in the Bible' is really missing the point. Even the medieval Muslims had more of an argument than 'it isn't in the Bible silly Christians!'
This lead to a lot of philosophy. And no, it doesn't say the word 'Trinity' in the Bible. (From what I recall, it doesn't give you specific instructions on how to do your prayers in the Quran, either... is that supposed to be a knockdown argument?) But it does say a lot of things, which monnik cited, about the nature of Jesus, the nature of God, and people argued that the best way to understand this was a triune God. There is only one God in Christianity. But God has three aspects. And there's been a lot of ink spilled on how to reconcile the Trinity with the idea that God is one.
You may not find it convincing, and that's fine, but saying 'omg where does it say trinity in the Bible' is really missing the point. Even the medieval Muslims had more of an argument than 'it isn't in the Bible silly Christians!'
Ok I didnt set myself as an expert.
Actualy first of all you say I keep getting it christianity wrong but earlier the only arguments I made was not all christians believe that Jesus is God and this is infact true, for example universalist christians believe that Jesus was a prophet only and God is one, they are complete monotheist like muslims. You may argue they are "not good christians" but im sure they would argue otherwise.
Secondly I said some worship Mary i.e catholics and paying homage is a form of prayer as the bible says it is wrong and i gave you the evidence for that.
So from the two statements I made what exactly am I getting wrong or keep getting wrong as you say???
Third I can make a massive argument here on why trinitarian is false using the bible itself and quotes from the seperation of Jesus and God but I rather not I just wanted to know if there was actualy trinity in the bible in another form; for example the word "muslim" is in the bible in another form bet you didnt know that one. Also there are many christians themselves that dont believe in trinity.
Fourth you claim there is no specific instruction of prayer in the quran yes the prayer is all in the Quran.. The times of prayer, the actions of prayer and the words.
Also you said the bible was put togather by men inspired by God, who had to figure out which candidate letters and books were inspired by God.... that statement is almost contradictory. I know there are debates within christianity itself on who actualy were the authors of the bible. But what do you mean?
Peace
Adiel (Mireya's hubby)
Christians don't believe the Bible was DICTATED by God. They believe it was INSPIRED by God, but that human beings wrote it. Not contradictory at all. The questions at the various councils were 'was this idea inspired by God, or is this idea only something that a man wrote without being inspired?'
I am sure you can google up yourself an argument on behalf of unitarians, but that doesn't change the fact that people who believe in the Trinity are not saying they believe in three gods.
Catholics do not worship Mary. (There's a distinction between honoring someone and worshipping them.) Christians did not just decide to eat pork because they liked it. They're not bound by the old covenant, either. They're, well, a different religion from Judaism.
Perhaps pointing to verses in isolation is the way to interpret Islam, though what I've read suggests otherwise. But pointing to a random verse in the Bible is a very bad way to go about religious scholarship about Christianity. Most Christians don't accept that the Bible is the only source of truth about God.
---
Anyhow, my only point was saying that Muslims can marry Christians as long as they don't believe anything non-Muslim about Christ, and expecting that this will lead to happiness and flowers and bunnies just isn't going to happen. Most denominations of Christianity are trinitarian, most accept that Jesus is God, and most accept that Jesus died and was resurrected and that that's the whole shebang. It's not just as easy as 'Muslims believe in Jesus, too'; from a Christian perspective it looks like 'Muslims can marry Christians as long as they're not really committed to anything like standard Christianity.' And that's without getting into even the fun doctrinal differences.
I am sure you can google up yourself an argument on behalf of unitarians, but that doesn't change the fact that people who believe in the Trinity are not saying they believe in three gods.
Catholics do not worship Mary. (There's a distinction between honoring someone and worshipping them.) Christians did not just decide to eat pork because they liked it. They're not bound by the old covenant, either. They're, well, a different religion from Judaism.
Perhaps pointing to verses in isolation is the way to interpret Islam, though what I've read suggests otherwise. But pointing to a random verse in the Bible is a very bad way to go about religious scholarship about Christianity. Most Christians don't accept that the Bible is the only source of truth about God.
---
Anyhow, my only point was saying that Muslims can marry Christians as long as they don't believe anything non-Muslim about Christ, and expecting that this will lead to happiness and flowers and bunnies just isn't going to happen. Most denominations of Christianity are trinitarian, most accept that Jesus is God, and most accept that Jesus died and was resurrected and that that's the whole shebang. It's not just as easy as 'Muslims believe in Jesus, too'; from a Christian perspective it looks like 'Muslims can marry Christians as long as they're not really committed to anything like standard Christianity.' And that's without getting into even the fun doctrinal differences.
QUOTE(mybackpages @ Sep 23 2007, 09:35 AM)
QUOTE(monnik @ Sep 22 2007, 11:00 PM)
JESUS=GOD?
I know of at least one verse from the Quran that says that Jesus arose after his death (Surah 19:30-35). Mortal men can't do that. Most of Jesus' miracles were performed without invocation; without calling on any type of higher power. When he said it, it was done. Just the way the Quran says that God wills in Surah 3:47 and 3:59. Can a mortal will miracles into existence?
I know of at least one verse from the Quran that says that Jesus arose after his death (Surah 19:30-35). Mortal men can't do that. Most of Jesus' miracles were performed without invocation; without calling on any type of higher power. When he said it, it was done. Just the way the Quran says that God wills in Surah 3:47 and 3:59. Can a mortal will miracles into existence?
Jesus was mortal. it was God who made all the things you point to happen. The Quran does not say Jesus rose after death. The death never occurerd. God is great.
I'll just correct myself. We dont know form the Quran is there wasa death or how God took Jesus from this earth. We do know there was never a crucifiction.
QUOTE(Caladan @ Sep 23 2007, 10:50 AM)
Christians don't believe the Bible was DICTATED by God. They believe it was INSPIRED by God, but that human beings wrote it. Not contradictory at all. The questions at the various councils were 'was this idea inspired by God, or is this idea only something that a man wrote without being inspired?'
I am sure you can google up yourself an argument on behalf of unitarians, but that doesn't change the fact that people who believe in the Trinity are not saying they believe in three gods.
Catholics do not worship Mary. (There's a distinction between honoring someone and worshipping them.) Christians did not just decide to eat pork because they liked it. They're not bound by the old covenant, either. They're, well, a different religion from Judaism.
Perhaps pointing to verses in isolation is the way to interpret Islam, though what I've read suggests otherwise. But pointing to a random verse in the Bible is a very bad way to go about religious scholarship about Christianity. Most Christians don't accept that the Bible is the only source of truth about God.
---
Anyhow, my only point was saying that Muslims can marry Christians as long as they don't believe anything non-Muslim about Christ, and expecting that this will lead to happiness and flowers and bunnies just isn't going to happen. Most denominations of Christianity are trinitarian, most accept that Jesus is God, and most accept that Jesus died and was resurrected and that that's the whole shebang. It's not just as easy as 'Muslims believe in Jesus, too'; from a Christian perspective it looks like 'Muslims can marry Christians as long as they're not really committed to anything like standard Christianity.' And that's without getting into even the fun doctrinal differences.
I am sure you can google up yourself an argument on behalf of unitarians, but that doesn't change the fact that people who believe in the Trinity are not saying they believe in three gods.
Catholics do not worship Mary. (There's a distinction between honoring someone and worshipping them.) Christians did not just decide to eat pork because they liked it. They're not bound by the old covenant, either. They're, well, a different religion from Judaism.
Perhaps pointing to verses in isolation is the way to interpret Islam, though what I've read suggests otherwise. But pointing to a random verse in the Bible is a very bad way to go about religious scholarship about Christianity. Most Christians don't accept that the Bible is the only source of truth about God.
---
Anyhow, my only point was saying that Muslims can marry Christians as long as they don't believe anything non-Muslim about Christ, and expecting that this will lead to happiness and flowers and bunnies just isn't going to happen. Most denominations of Christianity are trinitarian, most accept that Jesus is God, and most accept that Jesus died and was resurrected and that that's the whole shebang. It's not just as easy as 'Muslims believe in Jesus, too'; from a Christian perspective it looks like 'Muslims can marry Christians as long as they're not really committed to anything like standard Christianity.' And that's without getting into even the fun doctrinal differences.
Many of the things you are saying are just different prespectives from christianity itself. Example not all christians believe Jesus to be God, some christians will say for example catholics worship mary. There are christians that do also follow the old covenant and dont eat pork, not all christians believe in the trinity. Im not taking random verses but merely pointing there are huge differences within christianity and all have legitimate arguments using the bible.
And your point about marriage was already stated from the Quran I stated that muslims can marry ANY faith not just jews and christians but ANY faith that believes in absolute monotheism. Trinity is not considered monotheist in Islam.
Peace
Adiel (Mireya's hubby)
QUOTE(Caladan @ Sep 23 2007, 11:50 AM)
Catholics do not worship Mary. (There's a distinction between honoring someone and worshipping them.)
Could you elaborate on this? I'm just curious. Growing up Catholic, I feel that I most definitely worshipped Mary. I guess it depends on what you mean by worship. I might even consider the saints as being worshipped in Catholicism.
QUOTE(Jenn! @ Sep 23 2007, 03:18 PM)
QUOTE(Caladan @ Sep 23 2007, 11:50 AM)
Catholics do not worship Mary. (There's a distinction between honoring someone and worshipping them.)
Could you elaborate on this? I'm just curious. Growing up Catholic, I feel that I most definitely worshipped Mary. I guess it depends on what you mean by worship. I might even consider the saints as being worshipped in Catholicism.
Dont you think veneration of Mary and the saints is different than worship? Worship to me implies divinity.
QUOTE(mybackpages @ Sep 23 2007, 04:35 PM)
QUOTE(Jenn! @ Sep 23 2007, 03:18 PM)
QUOTE(Caladan @ Sep 23 2007, 11:50 AM)
Catholics do not worship Mary. (There's a distinction between honoring someone and worshipping them.)
Could you elaborate on this? I'm just curious. Growing up Catholic, I feel that I most definitely worshipped Mary. I guess it depends on what you mean by worship. I might even consider the saints as being worshipped in Catholicism.
Dont you think veneration of Mary and the saints is different than worship? Worship to me implies divinity.
I guess I can see the difference. But it's the prayer that blurs the distinction for me, I think. Sorry if this sounds ignorant, but are there any religions besides Catholicism where you pray to someone other than God? There must be, but I can't think of any at the moment.
I found this on Wikipedia:
Adoration versus veneration
Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy distinguish between adoration or latria (Latin adoratio, Greek latreia, [λατρεια]) which is due to God alone, and veneration or dulia (Latin veneratio, Greek douleia [δουλεια]), which may be lawfully offered to the saints. The external acts of veneration resemble those of worship, but differ in their object and intent. Protestant Christians question whether such a distinction is always maintained in actual devotional practice, especially at the level of folk religion.
Orthodox Judaism and orthodox Sunni Islam hold that for all practical purposes veneration should be considered the same as prayer; Orthodox Judaism (arguably with the exception of some Chasidic practices), orthodox Sunni Islam, and most kinds of Protestantism forbid veneration of saints or angels, classifying these actions as akin to idolatry.
Similarly, Jehovah's Witnesses assert that many actions classified as patriotic by other Protestant groups, such as saluting a flag, are equivalent to worship and are therefore considered idolatrous as well.
Adoration versus veneration
Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy distinguish between adoration or latria (Latin adoratio, Greek latreia, [λατρεια]) which is due to God alone, and veneration or dulia (Latin veneratio, Greek douleia [δουλεια]), which may be lawfully offered to the saints. The external acts of veneration resemble those of worship, but differ in their object and intent. Protestant Christians question whether such a distinction is always maintained in actual devotional practice, especially at the level of folk religion.
Orthodox Judaism and orthodox Sunni Islam hold that for all practical purposes veneration should be considered the same as prayer; Orthodox Judaism (arguably with the exception of some Chasidic practices), orthodox Sunni Islam, and most kinds of Protestantism forbid veneration of saints or angels, classifying these actions as akin to idolatry.
Similarly, Jehovah's Witnesses assert that many actions classified as patriotic by other Protestant groups, such as saluting a flag, are equivalent to worship and are therefore considered idolatrous as well.
QUOTE(Jenn! @ Sep 23 2007, 03:39 PM)
QUOTE(mybackpages @ Sep 23 2007, 04:35 PM)
QUOTE(Jenn! @ Sep 23 2007, 03:18 PM)
QUOTE(Caladan @ Sep 23 2007, 11:50 AM)
Catholics do not worship Mary. (There's a distinction between honoring someone and worshipping them.)
Could you elaborate on this? I'm just curious. Growing up Catholic, I feel that I most definitely worshipped Mary. I guess it depends on what you mean by worship. I might even consider the saints as being worshipped in Catholicism.
Dont you think veneration of Mary and the saints is different than worship? Worship to me implies divinity.
I guess I can see the difference. But it's the prayer that blurs the distinction for me, I think. Sorry if this sounds ignorant, but are there any religions besides Catholicism where you pray to someone other than God? There must be, but I can't think of any at the moment.
sorry if this comes off as semantics, but praying to mary or the saints is not praying TO them as much as it is praying THROUGH them for intervention. does that make sense?
QUOTE(mybackpages @ Sep 23 2007, 04:45 PM)
QUOTE(Jenn! @ Sep 23 2007, 03:39 PM)
QUOTE(mybackpages @ Sep 23 2007, 04:35 PM)
QUOTE(Jenn! @ Sep 23 2007, 03:18 PM)
QUOTE(Caladan @ Sep 23 2007, 11:50 AM)
Catholics do not worship Mary. (There's a distinction between honoring someone and worshipping them.)
Could you elaborate on this? I'm just curious. Growing up Catholic, I feel that I most definitely worshipped Mary. I guess it depends on what you mean by worship. I might even consider the saints as being worshipped in Catholicism.
Dont you think veneration of Mary and the saints is different than worship? Worship to me implies divinity.
I guess I can see the difference. But it's the prayer that blurs the distinction for me, I think. Sorry if this sounds ignorant, but are there any religions besides Catholicism where you pray to someone other than God? There must be, but I can't think of any at the moment.
sorry if this comes off as semantics, but praying to mary or the saints is not praying TO them as much as it is praying THROUGH them for intervention. does that make sense?
Yeah, I still don't really see much of a difference, but we can leave it at that. With my feelings about Catholicism being what they are it could turn ugly.
Interesting discussion.
"this also goes for men and women. not just can men marry another faith."
As a Muslima who was married to a Christian, I appreciate your enlightenment!
Whom, in Islamic theology, is a trinitarian, and therefore a polytheist (not a pagan)? Now,for Muslims and for Christians, that is a well debated question. Matthew 28:19 declares: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." The debate over the verses' meaning Godhead began and continues fom there.
Catholic trinitarians existed in the time of the Prophet, having established that as doctrine at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD, nearly 3 centuries before the birth of Muhammad. The Council of Constantinople established the divinity of Christ in 381 AD. with an addition to the Nicean Creed: "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified who spoke by the Prophets and in One, Holy, Universal, and Apostolic Church. We confess one Baptism for the remission of sins and we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the coming age, Amen."
Islam emphatically rejects the concept of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Islam would hold Catholics and other trinitarian Christian sects to be polytheists. However, there are views of the trinity among Christians that perceive the trinity as a concept expressing the essential natures of God rather than having three Godheads. Christian doctrine varies by denomination, with some pronouncing Christian trinitarians as heretics, and some holding fast to some form of trinitarianism. As with many articles of faith, there is more than one interpretation.
The Prophet was married to Mariam, a Coptic Christian, although there is some dispute about whether she was required to convert to Islam prior to marriage (also some dispute about whether she was a wife or a concubine). The disputes over the status of their marriage and her religion are primarily due to the conflict over whether a Muslim is allowed to marry a Catholic. Muslims who cling to the idea that Christians are polytheists because of the trinity, and/or that their belief in Jesus as God is a blasphemy will not accept marriage between a Muslim and a Christian of any ilk because of verses in the Quran that clearly prohibit marriage between Muslims and polytheists, 2:221 being the strongest directive re the issue.
Believe what he says, that he will not marry you, and move on. Your heart will heal in time, and there are too many fish in the sea to waste time in a dry hole.
Best wishes to you!
"this also goes for men and women. not just can men marry another faith."
As a Muslima who was married to a Christian, I appreciate your enlightenment!
Whom, in Islamic theology, is a trinitarian, and therefore a polytheist (not a pagan)? Now,for Muslims and for Christians, that is a well debated question. Matthew 28:19 declares: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." The debate over the verses' meaning Godhead began and continues fom there.
Catholic trinitarians existed in the time of the Prophet, having established that as doctrine at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD, nearly 3 centuries before the birth of Muhammad. The Council of Constantinople established the divinity of Christ in 381 AD. with an addition to the Nicean Creed: "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified who spoke by the Prophets and in One, Holy, Universal, and Apostolic Church. We confess one Baptism for the remission of sins and we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the coming age, Amen."
Islam emphatically rejects the concept of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Islam would hold Catholics and other trinitarian Christian sects to be polytheists. However, there are views of the trinity among Christians that perceive the trinity as a concept expressing the essential natures of God rather than having three Godheads. Christian doctrine varies by denomination, with some pronouncing Christian trinitarians as heretics, and some holding fast to some form of trinitarianism. As with many articles of faith, there is more than one interpretation.
The Prophet was married to Mariam, a Coptic Christian, although there is some dispute about whether she was required to convert to Islam prior to marriage (also some dispute about whether she was a wife or a concubine). The disputes over the status of their marriage and her religion are primarily due to the conflict over whether a Muslim is allowed to marry a Catholic. Muslims who cling to the idea that Christians are polytheists because of the trinity, and/or that their belief in Jesus as God is a blasphemy will not accept marriage between a Muslim and a Christian of any ilk because of verses in the Quran that clearly prohibit marriage between Muslims and polytheists, 2:221 being the strongest directive re the issue.
Believe what he says, that he will not marry you, and move on. Your heart will heal in time, and there are too many fish in the sea to waste time in a dry hole.
Best wishes to you!
QUOTE(Jenn! @ Sep 23 2007, 04:50 PM)
QUOTE(mybackpages @ Sep 23 2007, 04:45 PM)
QUOTE(Jenn! @ Sep 23 2007, 03:39 PM)
QUOTE(mybackpages @ Sep 23 2007, 04:35 PM)
QUOTE(Jenn! @ Sep 23 2007, 03:18 PM)
QUOTE(Caladan @ Sep 23 2007, 11:50 AM)
Catholics do not worship Mary. (There's a distinction between honoring someone and worshipping them.)
Could you elaborate on this? I'm just curious. Growing up Catholic, I feel that I most definitely worshipped Mary. I guess it depends on what you mean by worship. I might even consider the saints as being worshipped in Catholicism.
Dont you think veneration of Mary and the saints is different than worship? Worship to me implies divinity.
I guess I can see the difference. But it's the prayer that blurs the distinction for me, I think. Sorry if this sounds ignorant, but are there any religions besides Catholicism where you pray to someone other than God? There must be, but I can't think of any at the moment.
sorry if this comes off as semantics, but praying to mary or the saints is not praying TO them as much as it is praying THROUGH them for intervention. does that make sense?
Yeah, I still don't really see much of a difference, but we can leave it at that. With my feelings about Catholicism being what they are it could turn ugly.
ugh i just typed out like five paragraphs and then lost it. Anyway I can see where you're coming from and my point in all that I wrote and lost is that I was so wrapped up in praying the rosary each day and celebrating various Saint's days that I lost site of God.
QUOTE(Jenn! @ Sep 23 2007, 04:18 PM)
QUOTE(Caladan @ Sep 23 2007, 11:50 AM)
Catholics do not worship Mary. (There's a distinction between honoring someone and worshipping them.)
Could you elaborate on this? I'm just curious. Growing up Catholic, I feel that I most definitely worshipped Mary. I guess it depends on what you mean by worship. I might even consider the saints as being worshipped in Catholicism.
You've got the distinction between adoration and veneration right. Hey, this is the religion that invented the Jesuits. We're good at fine distinctions. In other words, it's ALL about the semantics and sometimes even about the syntax. One of these days I'm going to write a book analyzing the metaphysics of the Nicaean creed, because I swear, every. single. word. means something that a) was a result of an argument and
likely got someone declared a heretic.A quick explanation: basically, when you pray to Mary or the saints, it's like asking your mom or dad or friends to pray for you. Except that Mary and the saints are people who have proved that they're very holy and devout and all that jazz. But the idea is that you're asking for their intercession, not for them to grant you thus-and-such.
Also, in general, the Trinity is really bizarre and requires a mess of philosophy that doesn't always work to keep it coherent. Whether that's good enough for Islam is a whole 'nuther ball of wax.
As an interesting side note, back in my undergraduate days, the professor of world religions I had said that early Muslims were most familiar with a heretical form of Christianity that said God, Jesus, and *Mary* were the Trinity, and he thought that the interpretation of Christianity as polytheist likely stemmed from that rather than the ancient & medieval philosophical interpretations.
Here's the thing-- the form of Christianity your prophet would have encountered (over 90% of the time) would have been a +/-600 year old Eastern Orthodoxy (Eastern Orthodox Catholicism) out of the Byzantine culture-- and LONG before he was ever around, they were full-swing into veneration of saints, Mary, and the cross-- and in fact it was part of the reason for one of the first splits in the church. So to me, the odd idea that he would have said Christianity, and really meant a few, tiny splinter/heretical groups, is really kind of insulting, don't you think? As if he had no idea what was going on in his little corner of the world? Or was it just too much work to write a few extra qualifying adjectives into the mix and was supposed to be understood? Because it seems that generally it wouldn't be too hard to put that in... and generally Muslims seem more than happy to agree that using a term like "disbelievers" means all disbelievers in Islam, and not just all of them minus this one group which has X special quality.. so what is the difference here? And wouldn't this make this portion of the Qu'ran not literal then and in fact figurative and subjective then, if it doesn't mean what it says? It would mean then only some "people of the book", and not really the mainstream ones that were hanging around at the time. I would think that given most of the Christians would have been under this trinitarian/saint veneration/cross veneration standard in the area of Muslims, that would have been something kind of important to note at the time of saying who you could and could not marry.
And as a side note-- just because someone says they are Christian, Muslim, etc doesn't mean they actually follow the tenants of that faith. A christian is literally a follower of Christ, and one of the key elements is to believe He was Messiah, God incarnate, to fulfill the law and to make atonement for the sins of men. If you couldn't hold to that, then you're not Christian just like if you cannot now believe Mohammed was a prophet, you're not Muslim no matter how hard you want to try and label yourself as such. If I said I was Muslim but didn't believe in Mohammed as a prophet, or that you needed to pray, or that the Qu'ran was actually a true book, and actually that Christ was God, wouldn't you kind of hold issue with me? Before one makes judgements involving the acceptance of what people say, it is better to know the standards to which they are accountable. Otherwise, not only will you be duped but you will also be guilty of spreading non-truth. And if one feels that to learn the history and tenants of another religion (and of the area in general about which one is speaking) is too much work or a waste of time, then it is better to not get into arguments about it.
And as a side note-- just because someone says they are Christian, Muslim, etc doesn't mean they actually follow the tenants of that faith. A christian is literally a follower of Christ, and one of the key elements is to believe He was Messiah, God incarnate, to fulfill the law and to make atonement for the sins of men. If you couldn't hold to that, then you're not Christian just like if you cannot now believe Mohammed was a prophet, you're not Muslim no matter how hard you want to try and label yourself as such. If I said I was Muslim but didn't believe in Mohammed as a prophet, or that you needed to pray, or that the Qu'ran was actually a true book, and actually that Christ was God, wouldn't you kind of hold issue with me? Before one makes judgements involving the acceptance of what people say, it is better to know the standards to which they are accountable. Otherwise, not only will you be duped but you will also be guilty of spreading non-truth. And if one feels that to learn the history and tenants of another religion (and of the area in general about which one is speaking) is too much work or a waste of time, then it is better to not get into arguments about it.
QUOTE(julianna @ Sep 24 2007, 08:03 AM)
Here's the thing-- the form of Christianity your prophet would have encountered (over 90% of the time) would have been a +/-600 year old Eastern Orthodoxy (Eastern Orthodox Catholicism) out of the Byzantine culture-- and LONG before he was ever around, they were full-swing into veneration of saints, Mary, and the cross-- and in fact it was part of the reason for one of the first splits in the church. So to me, the odd idea that he would have said Christianity, and really meant a few, tiny splinter/heretical groups, is really kind of insulting, don't you think? As if he had no idea what was going on in his little corner of the world? Or was it just too much work to write a few extra qualifying adjectives into the mix and was supposed to be understood?
First of all, maybe its a mistake in your syntax, but you seem to be implying that the Prophet wrote the Quran and that is very very insulting to Muslims. The first sentence "he" is clearly the rophet, but then you go on and on using "he" as if you still mean the prophet. Maybe you did, but i am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.
Second point- Over and over it is clear in the Quran that God distnuishes between those who follow the oneness of God and those who profess faith in a trinity. OVER and OVER and OVER..how much more clear can that be?
Actually, by "he" I meant God. Sorry to confuse it there-- my point was that I am assuming if it says "people of the book" it means "people of the book" and not "only these people over here that qualify with X" because it seems to be very clear on that kind of point elsewhere as you stated, doesn't it? If it in fact only allows marriage to people who do not profess a trinity (Christians), then it bans marriage with Christians, pure and simple.
PS-- MBP-- just wanted to say sorry for the quickness of myt response to you-- not mad or anything but have this new boss who keeps looking over my shoulder and generally cramping my VJ posting time so I am in a huge hurry to spit out what I have to say before he starts hovering again and calling me "dear" and being all up in my personal space zone.
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