what a jerk!

I know you just said you meant God by he but that doesn't make sense then because God knows all about what is going on not only in his little corner but in all corners. I"m confused by what you've written and who is he.

his=this. "Here's the thing-- the form of Christianity your prophet would have encountered (over 90% of the time) would have been a +/-600 year old Eastern Orthodoxy (Eastern Orthodox Catholicism) out of the Byzantine culture-- and LONG before he was ever around, they were full-swing into veneration of saints, Mary, and the cross-- and in fact it was part of the reason for one of the first splits in the church. So to me, the odd idea that he would have said Christianity, and really meant a few, tiny splinter/heretical groups, is really kind of insulting, don't you think? As if he had no idea what was going on in this little corner of the world? Or was it just too much work to write a few extra qualifying adjectives into the mix and was supposed to be understood? Because it seems that generally it wouldn't be too hard to put that in..."

First He was Mohammed, second was God and inbetween I apparently left out my connecting thought which is what happens when it takes you 30 minutes or so and several tries to get out a paragraph.

ok still don't get the he's but whatever. This part though just really feels like you're saying that the prophet mohammed, pbuh, had a choice on what was to go into the Quran and what wasn't. He didn't write anything, he was illiterate. He merely spoke what was given to him by the angel Gabrielle which is one of the reasons why the Quran in and of itself is supposed to be a miracle because how could an illiterate human say these things that he said and make them rhyme so beautifully as it does.

But if you still mean God, of course it wouldn't be too much work. Not like he was still pooped from creating Earth or anyting. lol

new guy is gone for 10 minutes! Great!

So I wasn't implying that-- it was sarcasm. My point was if it was to be more specific as people are saying, then wouldn't it have been worded as so? Because obviously it is pretty clear in many parts and so I would think the same wording would be used again if the need was there-- because it is used in multiples in other places. Repetition doesn't seem to be a problem in many religious writings, does it? I am actually asking here at this point since people are pretty clear that it means non-trinitarian-peoples.

(ETA-- so there is anyone here actually willing to outright say it is haram to marry a Christian then? Since Christians are followers of Christ and believe in His divinity? And at that point would "the book" have to be the Torah alone since it is stated Christ is divine in the NT and that would have been in place for several hundreds of years by the time the Qu'ran came along? Just curious what your guys' view is on this!)

As to your question, I see no problem with an illiterate individual being able to not only memorize and entire book but also create a good rhyme and syntax. illiterate doesn't equal stupid, and nor does it mean you are not gifted in speech or creativity or story telling. In fact, many cultures without written languages show great ability in these areas. I'm still not sure why, though, this has become about what I think about the origins of the Qu'ran and Mohammed? i'm not muslim, so that should already say something right there and get you some answers you won't like if you ask about things and want my honest and non-diplomatic opinion-- same as if I asked you about my religion! My beef was with the religious and cultural history given.

To the OP: All you wanted to know is whether or not you could marry this man and you started an entire debate!!

If you didn't get it already, this marriage will not work out. Even if he does come here to marry you, the pull of his mother may indeed be strong. I have read on VJ about husbands who end up leaving their american wives becaue mom said so. And the lack of photos of you with his family could be a hindering point at the interview anyways. Unfortunately I'm with the others. This is beyond whether or not you can marry. This is whether you should marry...in which case i think most of us are saying NO. Good luck with your decision and future.

Sounds like somebody needs a web browser more suited for that situation: http://lynx.browser.org/

5.5 : This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).

As I said before, the divinity of Jesus and the Trinity were well established Christian doctrine centuries before Islam was introduced into the Arab world. Still, the Quran makes marriage between Muslims and Christians halal, so, I'm not going to declare it haram. We are allowed to marry those who have the potential to enter heaven, and the Quran is the only Book among the Abrahamic faiths that does not limit heaven to a "chosen" people. The people who enter heaven will be chosen on the Last Day. None of us can know who will please Him and whom will not.

2.62 : Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

5.69 : Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

22.17 : Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for Allah is witness of all things.

3.113 - 115 : Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knoweth well those that do right.

5.48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

49.13 O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things

The People of the Book have a special relationship with God. He directs us to strive toward His Will, but doesn't expect perfection of any of us. He is not interested in labels, but in acts. According to Allah, we all have the potential to know Him thru His mercy. It is our free will to exercise that potential or not.

It's a family thing. Muslim men can marry "women of the book".

Ok thanks alot, especially for where in Koran it says it is allowed. Regarding the Christian/Islam debate, I could have a lot to say being a genuine "book person." Most importantly, we do not believe in three gods or idols but only one God.

Christians, Jews, and Muslims. The book - is the books that God has sent down prior to the Quran. Old testament & New testament. The 3 books are said to build on eachother - with the Quran as the final & ultimate word.

As for finding the direct quotations, I refer you to my brain: http://www.google.com (<- you're the one with the hammer. )

How can you say the qu'ran builds on the Bible? Yes the Bible builds on the Torah as the torah is part of the bible. The qu'ran changes most of the new testament, or makes the new testament a lie, in which case it would not have come from God.

Pardon, I'm notorious for wording things wrong.

Islamicity says it a bit better: http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/Muslim.htm

Part of Islam is believing the 3 books of God - Torah, Bible, and the final word - the Quran. You should know, understand, and be familar with the first two, but the ultimate word is the last book.

You will notice that some of the wisest people in the Islamic world ... are very familiar with the Bible. People who happened to learn the Bible first - can go far, as well : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamza_Yusuf

I believe the books talked about in the Quran are the unaltered ones...i.e. the unalterated Torah and the unalterated Bible. If one were to look at the original of both...which doesn't exist but for argument's sake.....the Quran would be the last book building on the original bible.

I think I have that right but I"m sure someone will come and correct me if not. lol.

The quran doesn't really change much of the new testament in my mind because if you take the parts of the four gospels that actually agree with each other and don't contradict each other it's right in line with what the Quran states.

Thanks, I'll be checking that out.

The Quran doesn't build on the Bible at all, but, in facts, considers the Bible to be a corruption of the Message that needed correction, requiring the Quran to be revealed. While there are many verses refering favorably to the prior Message in the Torah, and the Prophet even refered to learned Jews for legal guidance, there are also divergant views. For example, there is no original sin in Islam, as indicated in Genesis. There is no blame on Hawa (Eve) for the sins of all mankind. She is not a symbol of worldly pain and sin, but shares the burden with Adam. Also, unlike the Bible, it is not a book claimed to be written by man inspired by God, but dictated directly by God and protected by Him. A study of both the Bible and the Quran is an inspiring endevour, which I would encourage.

i would say its ok since i am christian and hassan is muslim and the court in syria married us and then when he got here we got married in a mosque. i think if it were forbidden the man at the mosque would have told my husband no we cant marry u.

How does anyone really know that the Quran does not build on the bible if we don't have the original uncorrupted version of the bible to compare it to?

A really good book explaining the differences between the four Gospels is "Beyond Mere Christianity" by Brandon Toropov. I was put off by the title when someone sent it to me and actually didn't read it for a good month because I was offended (i was still Catholic at that point), but then I finally read it and it was a real eye opener. Even if someone isn't considering Islam but is just looking more into Christianity I think it's a good read because it makes one asks more questions.

the problem is anyone on earth can twist anything into a real eye opener. then u can read another book with sways u the other way. before u know it u dont know what to believe.

That's very true Donna!!! I guess I just had to listen to my inner voice and pray about it. I scoured all types of information from books, internet, etc. I made appts with a few muslimahs who were nice enough to meet with a perfect stranger for lunch, etc. and at the end of the day I let it all digest, prayed on it and woke up one morning at 4am (never in my life!!!) and just*knew* and made gushl (sp?), said my shahada and prayed fasr.

Some may have taken all of that info and NOT woken up with that gut feeling and that's ok too because it's not where they should be at that time. I think everyone has a path and in the end as long as it leads to God it's all good.

A little known fact is that the same process that made it "illegal" for a Muslima to marry a non-Muslim -figh rulings - also made it "illegal" for a Muslim man to be married to a non-Muslim woman in the west. The old double standard overlooks the law when it comes to what Muslim men do, but insists on making Muslim women cowtow to man's law.



That is the point; there is no uncorrupted Bible. There is only the corrected Message in the Quran.

Interesting discussion. As our situation is the converse of most here (American man, Moroccan woman) I did a lot of research into this subject. First off:



Not the way I read it. The line says (something like) "Do not allow your daughters to marry the mushrikoon". The word "mushrik" means someone:

1. Who has heard the word of God through the Koran
2. Understands it
3. Knows it to be true
4. Rejects it anyway
5. And actively works against it

Your average Jewish/Christian man does not fill that criteria, so they're not mushrik. They should be allowed to marry a muslim woman. The Koran does not otherwise specifically disallow such a marriage.

But, as was pointed out before, getting past the cultural expectations can be a very difficult task. In my case, it was easier to convert rather than get my future in-laws to understand my Ghandi-esque philosophy. Well, maybe they'd understand it, but they still wouldn't let me marry their daughter!

Also, there are plenty of Christian families who won't allow their kids to marry a non-Christian, even someone of a different denomination. And there's nothing I'm aware of in the NT that says an Xtian must marry an Xtian.

I'm christian and Medo is muslim. His mom had aranged for him to marry a muslim girl. He did not love her and she was younger then him. He dose not like younger girls. Needless to say I'am not his moms biggest fan. I dought when I go to Egypt in November that she will even bother to meet me. But as a man he made his choice to marry me. And he took alot of $hit doing so, from all his family. I think your fiance needs to stand up and be a man in this case if he loves you.

That's the definition of a kafir. Kafirs are forbidden in verses 60:10-11. A mushrik is a polytheist (2:221).

There is nothing in sharia that makes it haram for a Muslim woman to marry a kitabi man. That's why I felt free to do so myself, as are a growing number of Muslim women.

Are practising Jewish and Christian women premitted, by their faith, to marry a muslim man?

Considering that there is One Message, and it was given by One God to all people, and the Quran is a confirmation of the Message, any prohibition in the Bible against interfaith marriage would be incorrect. However, a passage in 2 Corinthians 6:14 (part of Paul's Letters to the Corinthians) says "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?", and that has been interpreted to mean that Christians can marry only Christians. Jews discourage marrying out, as do most faiths, but they consider the children of a Jewish mother to be born Jews, not the other way around.

What (or should I say who?) is a kitabi?

With Christianity it varies by sect. Catholicism is okay with it provided the children are raised Catholic, so in theory, yes, but if you have two people whose traditions separately require that the children be raised in their religion, there are either problems or someone's ignoring that particular faith requirement.

"What (or should I say who?) is a kitabi"

Ahl al Kitab or kitabi's are people that have received Gods message in the form of a book. The Quran refers to Jews, Christians, and of course Muslims as receivers of Gods message in a book form....thats one of the reasons why marriage between the 3 is allowed as they all are recipients of the same message and worship and believe in the same God....all though many followers of all three faiths would like to argue the fact.



"There is nothing in sharia that makes it haram for a Muslim woman to marry a kitabi man. That's why I felt free to do so myself, as are a growing number of Muslim women."

No matter how many times you point out that fact to Muslims they just close their ears to the facts and insist on following the ways of "their fathers".... its a sad state of affairs when culture and tradition have replaced the Quran in nearly all matters...and many many muslims dont care or bother to distinguish the difference between the two.

I'm finding the same thing. The faith encourages thinking and reason, but dogma has taken over and Muslims refuse to think or question anything.

Case in point: my wifes OB/GYN is Muslim, but she's not fasting during Ramadan and thus my wife says "she's not really Muslim". I pointed out to her that she has a very important job to do. She cannot risk being weak or faint at 6:00pm and have to deliver a baby, so it's an extreme hardship for her to fast. Thing is, I had just found the sura in the Koran that says if it's an extreme hardship for you to fast during Ramadan you can feed a poor person instead. But my wife refused to listen (probably cause she hates to be wrong).

And that's the crux of the problem. People don't want to learn they've "believed wrong" all this time, so they'll fight you tooth & nail regardless of whatever valid arguments you can find. Like fundy Xtians and the scientific theory of evolution. Evolution contradicts part of what they believe, so they'll fight it because they don't want to be wrong.

good post

This might be one of the worst, biggest generalizations I've heard in a long time.

Furthermore, the doctor just doesn't fast, end of story. It's not a freaking hardship for an ob/gyn to fast. Men who work in the desert all day in 115 degree weather fast while they work all day. A doctor in a US office in air conditioning doesn't fast because she doesn't want to, not because it's a dang hardship. And, if she chooses not to fast, that doesn't mean she isn't a real Muslim, it means that's her choice in her faith, and it's quite serious to call people out as a hypocrite, something I would think people would at least refrain from during Ramadan.

I completely disagree with your first point. It is a hardship for a doctor to fast, especially one who's on call at all hours. I'd hate to have a car accident at 6:00pm and be brought to the air conditioned emergency room where the Muslim doctor has been fasting all day and is ready to pass out from thirst and hunger.

This is one of the best generalizations about the Muslim community I have heard in a long time. If we want to measure the health of the Muslim community as a whole, this is IMO the single most important factor in why the Muslim community has gone so far from the Islam of the Prophet's community.

as to whether it is or is not a hardship to fast- isnt that really between the person and God? Are we so sure there is only one measurement for hardship? surely God understands the depth and complexity of what makes something a hardship for me and my ability to withstand something is not necessarily the same as someone elses.

I will say that I do think many people complain too much, focus on the hardship too much when it comes to the decision each day to intend to fast. there are many many musims suffering from disease and physical hardship that fast, but their fast is not my fast and only God knows which one he accepts.

Are you kidding me? Doctors (or anyone) sometimes go 12 hours without eating just because they are busy. You don't pass out from not eating for a few hours. We should be far more worried about doctors who go 36 hours without sleep.

If fasting is such a burden and causing passing out we should then be totally scared of driving anywhere near fasting Muslims because they might pass out and run us over. Or maybe fasting Muslims working construction might be so delirious from hunger they might make a huge mistake with wiring and the whole building will explode.

Islam & life in the Prophet's time isn't something anyone in this forum has any clue about first hand, and I will confidently make this generalization, especially when we are talking about doctors and business people, and having a roof over our heads and talking about all the lovely recipes to make for iftar. Everything one does is between herself and God, but to make the claim that ANYTHING other than serious illness is a hardship is just an excuse, complaining, or otherwise rationalizing why one isn't fasting. And that is between the person & God, but to make it out to be anything else is ridiculous.

And why is it OK to make the generalization that Muslims now don't think? Because it doesn't fit into your idea of what is right? People who have come to the conclusion that Muslim women cannot marry non-Muslim men would probably have quite the argument to make that they definitely came to this conclusion after quite a bit of thinking, research, and decision making. You might not agree, but it doesn't mean people aren't thinking.

So TRUE!!!!!!!! one of my biggest pet peeves... especially when it is a cultural influence blended in with the religion

ACTUALLY i gotta say i agree with this.. I've been doing alot of soul searching lately when it comes to Islam.. AND this has been the top of my discussions with my muslim friends.. Now, i wont say EVERY muslim falls into this catagory.. BUT i find alot of Muslim Born from a forgien country fall into this catagory.

Alot of Muslims DO just go with the flow.. and I dont agree with that. I come from the Question Authority approach.. and I wanna know the sources and where things came from.. AND see logically why something was said i.e. date and time it was said

just think as to the First message that got relaid to the prophet saw.. Iqra ! to Read... be educated! but when do people question the sources??? When do people read and question the sources to the hadiths! to see if it even holds any water?

Honestly, I think conflating culture and religion is common to most people who are born to a religion (rather than converting.) There's a lot of things the average Christian believes that might not be official doctrine* but that the person would take as more fundamental to their faith than an actual proscription to the faith. Christmas trees, guardian angels, certain practices about saints, beliefs about limbo, heaven, whatever; most people couldn't be talked out of them by pointing to a couple Biblical passages.

Where it gets complicated is in disentangling the two, and I'm not sure how fruitful this is likely to be outside of philosophical and academic discussions. At the very least, it would take a lot of wok. We might present the OPs mother with a long list of quotes of how Muslim men are allowed to marry Christian women and even present a skillful argument on how trinitarianism affects it. End result is probably still 'but my baby is marrying an American Christian and the sky is falling.'

But I would guess that it's unlikely to be convincing emotionally even if she understands it intellectually. It's easier for converts or scholars because they're approaching it from an outside perspective.

Noty all generalizations are equal. My understanding of this statement is not based on my feelings or personal experience in the Muslim world. It is based on academic research and study of the Islamic community over centuries.

A generalization is not a fact. There are plenty of exceptions to any generalization. Would you feel better if I called it a hypothesis rather than a generalization?

My hypothesis is that much of what ails the Muslim community as a whole is rooted in the abandoment of quality and inclusive education. Dogma is a much more comfortable fit than critical thinking esp when you aren't educated to question and think. (I am not saying its limited to this region by any means.)

I dont think there is any denying that the state of education in the Muslim world is not of the quailty it could be. And before anyone comes out and complains i am saying somehow a MENA education is inferior, I'm not saying that. The best education in a MENA school is competative with the top program in any other country.

Generalization is not a hypothesis. A generalization has been made about an entire group that they don't **think** for themselves - PERIOD. An hypothesis would mean you make a claim, you research and control for things like culture (how many cultures are predominantly muslim? this would be a huge study to undertake to prove such an hypothesis), and then a decision is made if your claim has been proven true (then you'd have a theory). That is not what is being done here, by anyone.

Why play semantics here? rclouse made a generalization that is utterly ridiculous on its face. There is no need to pick through it to find truth. Talk about issues with education and things that Caladan brings up like conflation of culture and religion, but saying that people don't think is undeniably self-serving and ethnocentric - expecting people to think like "we" do.

It struck me the same way -- as a most insulting generalization.

"The faith encourages thinking and reason, but dogma has taken over and some Muslims refuse to think or question anything."

Is that better?




The same things could be said for pretty much any faith IMO.

THIS.

I never meant to say ALL Muslims are unthinking robots. Just a lot, when it comes to matters of faith. I have a lot of questions and I don't get them answered; I'm told to stop thinking and just do it. Sorry, that may be the way you were raised, but not me.

BTW, Ray, how's the baby doing? He must be getting big!

I dont see reclouse's statement the same way you do obviously. Hd he written this is a scholarly academic work, i would have slamed him for over the top generalization, but with his record on this board, I'll give himt h benefit of the doubt and take a looser more broad interpretation of what he meant. I did not see it as a condemnation of a whole group of people but a common pattern that does exsist. And as a generalization is is not riduculous....if it were said as a matter of fact then it would be absolutely ridiculous.

Hi. I haven't been around for a *long* while, but I stopped by and saw this discussion and thought it was pretty interesting. I am Catholic and my husband is (Albanian) Muslim. Neither of us are particularly religious; or rather, I'd say we're both more spiritual than we traditionally follow our respective religions. Neither of our families are religious either so basically for us, the religion issue hasn't really caused a problem (at least not yet) in the 3 years we've been together. Neither of our sets of parents had any problem with us marrying. We're getting married in the Catholic Church next year and neither of us is converting to anything. Personally, I don't think I would *EVER* convert to Islam or to any other religion. I might not follow Catholicism very closely, but I like being associated with it. ... Which might not make sense, but that's how I feel. Actually, going through the marriage process in the Catholic Church and seeing how completely open and welcoming the priest was to my husband made me like it more.

I attended Catholic school for my entire life and had the wonderful benefit of really, really great religious education (Catholic theology and World Religions). Having said that, I at no point in my entire life, have ever believed or been made to think that Catholics worship more than one God. For Catholics, there is 1 and only 1 God. Mary is not a god, none of the saints are gods either. One reveres the saints as one might revere a really great role model or something -- they are people to model your actions after, to look to for guidance for how a normal human being can live in God's light. God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one in the same, though each aspect has a unique purpose, function and nature. So, I don't really understand this confusion about Catholics being pagans or polytheists -- the idea that Catholics associate "partners" with God is a totally misguided understanding of Catholic theology. That idea totally, completely misrepresents Catholicism (and perhaps Christianity entirely) and, frankly, is ignorant and a ridiculously simplistic understanding of a very complex concept (and religion).

The pagan aspects of Catholicism, of course, DO exist, in the influence of Platonic philosophy and ancient pagan religious holidays on the Catholic landscape. But not in terms of multiple gods. Also, why does Paganism automatically = Bad? I think we can learn a lot from certain ancient pagan religions and I think Catholicism is rich for those influences, actually.

I have watched friends deal with their fiance's family expectations and in my experience, no amount of justification or arguing in the world can change someone's mind about what their son/daughter should and must do. Hopefully the OP's fiance can convince his mother that she has it wrong, but if not, it will come down to him either disobeying her or the OP converting. In any event, I wish the OP the very best and I hope this can be resolved! *hug*

Best,
Karen

Hey Karen!!!

How are you?