I'll have to side with the "generalization". Having been born Muslim and raised around them all my life, I do see that a lack of thinking has actually become a badge of honor among Muslims. If you ask a question a long standing fiqh interpretation that is obviously based on circumstances and/or assumptions that do not exist in your world, you are shouted down as a heretic or as "lost". It matters little how much evidence or support you can supply for your position, if you aren't a revered dead scholar or an internet pundit on Islam QA or the like, you have no case.

Jeffery Lang, an American convert to Islam, wrote a book on this very subject called "Losing My Religion" about how the insistance on keeping the status quo no matter how self-destructive is keeping a lot of Muslims in the US from participating in their communities. It's a good read. I can recommend it to those who are "thinking" types.

Muslim men can marry outside of their faith. To women who also have a montheistic faith. That is believing in one god versus a pantheon of gods or spirits.

However, the issue really comes down to culture, family and attitude.

One thing you must know, muslim families are close. It's all about group harmony and pleasing the parents. So when it comes to issues of marriage, it isn't a private affair between you and your sweetie. It's about what's good for all.

If the parents are old fashioned, they may act as match makers. Ensuring the new bride is muslim and "fits in with the family."

In my case, I married an Iranian. However, his family never questioned or disliked me. They loved my and accept me totally (a christian).

I have Indian muslim friends and they say their parents would never tolerate their sons marrying outside their religion and even outside of the region they live (Kashmir).

in your experiences. others have conflicting experiences that render that generalization null and void. which is why some people consider generalizations to be useless, and of inflicting more harm than good.

Experiences vary in relevance and quality, too. If one's experience with Muslims and Islamic practice is relatively short and shallow, and not dealing much with substantive religious ideology, and/or you don't know much about it yourself, your experience doesn't have the quality of someone who has. So, not all experience is relative or equal.

I just tried to say conflating culture ten times fast and I'm

Are there different sects of catholicism? The reason I ask is becasue I know this to be untrue in the case of the catholic church. My ex-husband's priest would never marry us in the church unless I converted to his religion because I was a pagan at the time and his brother married a budhist who also had to convert and take religion classes before the priest would marry them in the church.

I think you may be exaggerating just a tad here... or you've obviously never fasted to know that it's really not that big of a deal. Plenty of us fast while we're working and we make it for 30 days without fainting once.

I think it all depends on the diocese to be honest. Before I had converted I met with my priest to ask if Usama and I could get married in the Catholic church and he said it was ok but that our children would have to be brought up Catholic.

I think that Catholicism treats people of the Jewish faith and Islam about the same when it comes to being able to marry in the church since it does recognize that all three faiths stem from the same God.

From the Catechism of the Catholic church:

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

http://www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catec...1&ParType=a

I worked for the St. Louis Archdiocese and currently work for Jesuit Priests. From what I understand, a priest will marry 2 Christians. Just as they accept baptism by other religions as long as they are baptized in the Trinity. There are very few religions that do not fall under these categories.

You DO NOT have to convert to Catholicism to marry in the Catholic Church, unless you are not considered a Christian.

Of course they are not going to allow a pagan to marry in the Church...completely against beliefs of the Catholic Church. Why would you even want to? Same with a Buddhist.....not a believer of Christ.

But then why do they allow Jewish and Muslims to marry in the Catholic Church since they don't beleive in the divinity of Christ either?

Here is what "Catechism of the Catholic Church" has to say:

Mixed marriages and disparity of cult

1633 In many countries the situation of a mixed marriage (marriage between a Catholic and a baptized non-Catholic) often arises. It requires particular attention on the part of couples and their pastors. A case of marriage with disparity of cult (between a Catholic and a nonbaptized person) requires even greater circumspection.

1634 Difference of confession between the spouses does not constitute an insurmountable obstacle for marriage, when they succeed in placing in common what they have received from their respective communities, and learn from each other the way in which each lives in fidelity to Christ. But the difficulties of mixed marriages must not be underestimated. They arise from the fact that the separation of Christians has not yet been overcome. the spouses risk experiencing the tragedy of Christian disunity even in the heart of their own home. Disparity of cult can further aggravate these difficulties. Differences about faith and the very notion of marriage, but also different religious mentalities, can become sources of tension in marriage, especially as regards the education of children. the temptation to religious indifference can then arise.

1635 According to the law in force in the Latin Church, a mixed marriage needs for liceity the express permission of ecclesiastical authority.135 In case of disparity of cult an express dispensation from this impediment is required for the validity of the marriage.136 This permission or dispensation presupposes that both parties know and do not exclude the essential ends and properties of marriage and the obligations assumed by the Catholic party concerning the baptism and education of the children in the Catholic Church.137

1636 Through ecumenical dialogue Christian communities in many regions have been able to put into effect a common pastoral practice for mixed marriages. Its task is to help such couples live out their particular situation in the light of faith, overcome the tensions between the couple's obligations to each other and towards their ecclesial communities, and encourage the flowering of what is common to them in faith and respect for what separates them.

1637 In marriages with disparity of cult the Catholic spouse has a particular task: "For the unbelieving husband is consecrated through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is consecrated through her husband."138 It is a great joy for the Christian spouse and for the Church if this "consecration" should lead to the free conversion of the other spouse to the Christian faith.139 Sincere married love, the humble and patient practice of the family virtues, and perseverance in prayer can prepare the non-believing spouse to accept the grace of conversion.

My aunt and her husband (Jewish) were not allowed to marry in the Catholic church. They married in a Protestant church instead.

well yr credentials above fail to impress me much when yr making such a broad generalization as "a lack of thinking has actually become a badge of honor among Muslims." we're a diverse bunch. are you basing this generalization on experiences with muslims from indonesia or nigeria? canada or kuwait? from NOI felons at leavonworth to pakistani neurosurgeons making $800,000 a year? i see potentials for huge variances of attitudes and experiences and theological status and learning amongst a group that diverse.

i'm on the fence with this one. yeah, for most of us it's not a big deal. life and work go on, even for doctors. there's an environment for obstetricians that's not really paralleled for any other group of people though, not even other doctors. OB's are forced to carry $100,000 + malpractice insurance premiums in a lot of areas. they get sued for millions of dollars (average ob settlement is 7 million in cases of maternal or infant death or grave injury) even when their actions have nothing whatsoever to do with the patient's condition or outcome. fasting could easily become a pretty serious litigation issue. there's more to it than just "fainting once".

might i point out it's "leavenworth" that's the county, city, and the fort btw.

You see potential for variance? That means you sense a possibility, but don't have much beyond that to go upon which to form an opinion. Check back in when you've done the work needed to comment beyond emotion. Then, maybe you'll impress me.

Hey GEG, did you husband get his visa? Is he here already?

sar·chasm ('sär-"ka-z&m) : The giant gulf (chasm) between what is said and the person who doesn't get it.

i'm not the one making asinine generalizations about a billion+ people. the burden of proof is on you, bigot. the word 'potential' was used sarcastically. of course there's going to be huge variances of attitudes and experiences and theological status and beliefs. did it occur to you to look at other things that may be motivating that kind of attitude amongst some people, like disparities in education, socioeconomic status, and other sociological factors that are far more influential in forming this line of thinking than, incidentally, being muslim? this certainly happens in all other beliefs and lines of thought, from buddhists to communists. some people are thinkers and others are dogmatic sheep. but i'd never go so far as to say something like "a lack of thinking has become a badge of honor among christians" because i'd (hypothetically) grown up with and spent extensive time with thousands of jerry falwell devotees and graduated from bob jones university. i wouldn't therefore think that qualified me as an expert on the state of christianity from sub-saharan africa to south korea. this is trash. it's unbelievable that there are really people like yourself who purport to be so well-educated and informed but stands by something as ridiculous as this huge generalization.

hmm, so now geg is a bigot?

The local bishop has a lot of discretion, but C.'s not Catholic and we married, so it's definitely permissible under canon law. They really delayed his brother's marriage for over a year so he could convert? That's not right.

You don't have to agree with me, but you not agreeing with me doesn't make me a bigot. That's just ignorant defamation, the type that usually occurs when you have no support for your position and are fueled primarily by emotion. I have valid reasons for saying what I did, and they have everything to do with dealing with all types of Muslims, not with political correctness.

We're doing fine, Sarah. Thanks for asking!

Spare us all your sanctimonious indignation for emotionalism. You routinely denigrate posters on this board based on their ethnicity and other nonsensical ad hominems-emotionalism through and through. Your screeching up above is another great example of emotionalism, with the lovely red herring of “you’re just a political correctness sucker” thrown in. Ponder some of the sociological factors that pertain to “dealing with all types of Muslims”, like identity issues related to immigration, pressures of integration, embracing or adhering to certain ideals out of rebellion in response to pressure to integrate or persecution, real or perceived. There’s a lot more to it than Muslims just want to be ignorant nitwits because it’s a badge of honor. Real scholars, writing in legitimate peer-reviewed social science journals discuss these issues all the time without making gross generalizations like yours, charlatan.

Having a tantrum, are we? If you go back a few pages in the thread, you'll find that I'm not the only one to agree that thinking and questioning re the faith is lacking among Muslims. I don't know why you targeted my comments out of all the others who agreed with the premise, and I frankly don't care. You are a waste of time to communicate with.

Have a good day!

I really wish I knew how to insert the smilies with the back to topic sign, but the feeling is the same:

BACK TO TOPIC PLEASE!!!

I haven't read anything responding to the OP in quite awhile.....

Anything else to say about the OT?