I also found the phone numbers for some reporters for the Tennessean. I'm gonna be calling them tomorrow too. I want to get the word out about how discriminatory this is. I just cant get past the fact that they are discriminating against LEGAL RESIDENTS with LEGAL PERMANENT RESIDENT CARDS!!! It makes me mad just thinking about it. I'm gonna be freaking writing emails and making calls all day tomorrow about this. I've got the 1-800 number to the governor's office too. Something tells me that wont do much good though, because according to what I've read he's one of the ones thats been trying to get this piece of crap repealed.

Elgringo, while I empathize with what you've been saying--and I actually agree with your logic--but the below shows exactly what I was talking about. It's an extremely new law and your state has repeatedly (3 failed repeals) voted to keep it intact. If you're really against this law, you should be moving out of TN. Clearly the people of TN wants it this way. Despite what Doc says, I think many people in the US clearly lump legal and illegal immigration together. They want less immigration period, not just less illegal immigration.

I know this drives Doc crazy because anything he thinks is OK should be the law and anything he "thinks" is stupid should be repealed. Well that is his opinion. My opinion is that the requirement to carry a GC is clearly more stupid then this law and should be abolished.

While it may be annoying to carry both a CFD and a passport or GC, your wife has a valid permit to drive and she has legal proof of ID in the form of passport and GC, so once again I don't see the need for this big fuss. The practical goal is achieved--which is for her to drive.





If the CFD becomes a de facto national ID, isn't that what you want? I don't understand this quote. What exactly are they arguing for?

Well, this is one of the dumber things I have ever heard of.

I can understand how a state can right driving laws to suit their own needs, regardless of how 'draconian' those needs might be.

What I can't understand is how they get away with 're-classifying' the legal status of an immigrant. I didn't think the states had the authority to do that.

No, surely many in TN don't see it that way. Many in TN think the CFD is perfectly well suited to allow anyone legally in the country to drive. For the purpose of having an ID, the non citizens have passports and/or conditional GC cards. It's not necessary to issue a non-citizen a DL or State ID, in their minds. While some may disagree with that logic, the people of TN have that right to decide for themselves. That's why it's a democracy and a not dictatorship. You do not have to be correct all the time. Other people's ideas and opinions are valid too.

Apples? Oranges?

Something must be driving you crazy for you to bring this up again, because they sure aren't even the same thing.

Supposedly you cant get insurance with just a CFD...... I'd say thats enough reason for a big fuss....

And if you have difficulty obtaining insurance, what if you have a job (that you are able to get because of your LEGAL immigrant status) that requires you to drive?

I agree. Seems like a problem to me also.

elgringo, I don't think that's possible. Unless TN specifically allows people to drive in TN without auto insurance, then it can't be as you're suggesting. There must be a way for CFD drivers who live in TN to obtain auto insurance if TN requires all TN drivers to have insurance.

Do you have a "Department of Insurance" or an Insurance Commissioner in TN? You should contact that department to ask about this. I can't imagine TN's department of insurance not requiring all insurance companies who are allowed to offer insurance in TN to offer insurance to all, including those with only CFDs. That would absolutely be grounds for a lawsuit. You can't be legally required to purchase insurance, and yet at the same time be excluded from being able to purchase insurance. That's not possible.

Check out this article that Dr_LHA posted earlier in this thread:

http://www.tennessean.com/local/archives/0...ent_ID=64110024

Notice this segment:

elgringo, that article was written in 01/14/05, I'm pretty sure policies have been revised and your wife will be able to obtain auto insurance.

Here is something I found from Middle TN State University (MTSU) with regards to instructions for their foreign students in obtaining a CFD and on page two, you'll note it specifically advises students to purchase auto insurance. Take a look:

http://www.mtsu.edu/~ipso/tenn_driving_cert.pdf

So I'm pretty sure your wife will be able to purchase auto insurance. But, it may cost more.

Otherwise your only real recourse is to move out of TN. You can try changing the law--good luck--but it's been tried several times and it doesn't seem to be changing. You can also wait to see if the lawsuits prevail but that could take a while.

And if you scroll down a bit, what recently happened to Driving Certificates in Tennessee:

http://www.tnimmigrant.org/TN_Coalition/Le...htm#Certificate

http://www.newschannel5.com/Global/story.asp?S=6668013

http://www.jhackworth.com/weekly_reports/p...ease_061507.htm

Certificates for Driving
The controversial certificates for driving (CFD) were abolished by lawmakers. The new measure replaces the CFD with a temporary driver license for foreign residents lawfully in the United States. The temporary licenses are valid from one to five years.



Congrats elgringo. You've accomplished what you set out to do.

Well, I don't get what that's all about.........

Interesting... Perhaps not so great a change...



Everyone should move to WA. They have very laxed requirements for obtaining a full DL.

CA law sucks too, but compared to TN, it's not as bad.

Still trying to figure out whats going on in Tennessee....

http://www.tnrip.org/DriversLicenses.htm

OK, so if the law has been repealed then did the DMV that told elgringo his wife could only get a CFD not get the memo? Or have they not actually enacted the changes?

QUOTE

The new law will go into effect on October 1st, 2007. (General Talking Points) PASSED House and Senate. Public Chapter Number 194

Well, maybe OP should return on Oct 2nd to get a new DL.
Note: DL is NOT an official ID by all mean for EVERYONE. Some people think and believe having a DL is a key to this society, not really! It will get you around town a lot quicker, but no, DL is NOT a national ID Card. It justs means you can drive! Driving is NOT also a RIGHT but it's a privilege.

Doc

One of those articles makes mention of a October 1, 2007 date.

I'd still love to see more research on this or another resident of Tennessee come into the discussion. Google it yourself and you will find the search for clarity quite frustrating.

Personally I need a plain-language translation for full understanding.

B

So it would seem then that the Tennessee house and Senate realised that its a stupid law and repealed it then. Good show!

Thank you VJ friends for doing all that research on TN and driving. I'm soooo happy to see that my husband should be able to turn in his CFD in October for a temp DL. (if we get his greencard by then).

I really really appreciate the time you guys took into researching what is going on in TN. Thank you Thank you.

It will be so much easier with a DL when being carded, etc.



Allie
Nashville, TN

It would be even BETTER if you will never be carded... EVER!

I live in TN, and I had some trouble when trying to get my DL in Memphis last year. I was able to get a CFD with my EAD card but as soon as I got my conditional green card I was able to get the DL, and it won’t expire when the conditional GC expires.
I’ve noticed that people at the DMV at Shelby Dr knew more about these rules than the ones working at Summer Ave. I would go to another DMV, or try to talk to a supervisor.

My wife had her driver's license here in California just by using the EAD card.

What we did, as soon as she got here, I took her for a non driver ID so she doesn't have to carry her passport and stuff around, later on after the EAD got her permit then driver's license, the expiration date was not based on the GC. because it was still AOS pending.

I'm really confused now. So they are going to do away with the CFDs in October? It sounds like a "temporary" driver's license could be just as bad though.

I still believe that the only thing that should be offered to a LEGAL permanent resident is a full driver's license that would be offered to a citizen. As I said before, (and I think everyone knows except for the dumb Tennessee state legislators), a LPR has the exact same rights as a USC. If they can deny my wife a driver's license, next time they could be trying to deny me one.......

Check out this that I found on the website. You have to do some digging, but if you dig long enough you'll find that it does say that a conditional I-551 is only enough proof to get a CFD.... Like I keep saying, I find it ludicrous that the state of Tennessee considers a valid conditional Legal Permanent Resident card to be the exact same thing as just having an I-94 as far as driver's licenses are concerned. I just cannot get over that. How stupid can they be? We jumped through all the immigration hoops, paid our $1200, did all the paperwork, drove 8 hours for a 10 min interview, got the LEGAL PERMANENT RESIDENT card, and then the State of TN is gonna tell us that she's not a "real" LPR. What a crock.

http://www.tennessee.gov/safety/driverlice...ltemporary.html

Your wife has some of the same rights. Most of them. Of course she can't vote or become President of the United States. And DHS has juris over her presence in the US until she naturalizes if she ever crosses hairs with the law. But for the most part, an LPR is afforded the constitutional protections we citizens have - the most important - in my opinion - being due process.

The problem you are seeing is Federal Law v. State Law. Again by nature of what we are - the United States of America - the federal government is limited constitutionally as to its power over laws within the States. The founding fathers set it up that way on purpose. If you remember they were very pissed off at a certain British king.

Therefore, the States do have power to write and interpret their own laws so far as they don't violate the Bill of Rights. And apparently Tennessee has elected to define a 'legal permanent resident' in a different manner than the federal government does. Now, exactly how they can get away with this and whether or not it would have legs if it were challenged in Federal Court (something that could be done by a determined and very patient citizen) is doubtful in my opinion.

This is a VERY good example of why immigration law is not for the layperson, or even for the faint-of-heart attorney. The code is complex and coupled with the rights of States to interpret it - well there's just lots of room for error.

I do believe you are right that this 'temporary' drivers license may be nearly as worthless as a driving certificate to the person who holds one. That question might best be posed to a litigator for an insurance company, who no doubt would have an opinion as to how well protected the holder of a 'temp' drivers license would be protected, and what level of risk his company would be exposed to when insuring such individuals.

Thats not true. Federal law ALWAYS trumps state laws. But there are some thing that the Federal govt leaves up to the states to decide, such as issuing driver's licenses.

I believe that Tennessee's refusal to issue a driver's license to conditional residents would not stand up in a court of law. Read this on the USCIS website:

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/men...00045f3d6a1RCRD

Note that it says, "Some of you may be CONDITIONAL RESIDENTS. This page applies equally to you while you are in conditional resident status. The difference between you and an unconditioned permanent resident is that your permanent resident status will expire in two years from when it was given, unless you successfully petition to have the condition removed."

Also: "The Permanent Resident Card (either unconditioned or conditioned) can be used to prove employment eligibility in the US when completing the Form I-9 for a new employer. It can also be used to apply for a Social Security Card and a state issued driver’s license."

I should print that out and carry it back down to the DMV.... heh.

Yes, I think you should do that, and I believe you may prevail.

Also, as many have suggested, you should go to another DMV, but for whatever reason, you don't seem amenable to that suggestion.

Carlos a few posts above wrote:

I live in TN, and I had some trouble when trying to get my DL in Memphis last year. I was able to get a CFD with my EAD card but as soon as I got my conditional green card I was able to get the DL, and it won’t expire when the conditional GC expires.
I’ve noticed that people at the DMV at Shelby Dr knew more about these rules than the ones working at Summer Ave. I would go to another DMV, or try to talk to a supervisor.

It's not a case of 'trumping'. It's a case of who has jurisdiction where and the matter at hand. Most of the boundaries are clearly defined.

I was perhaps unclear. When I said "Fed law vs. State law" I meant the common misconception by laypeople in confusing the two.

That's all. Not trying to quarrel. Just clarifying what I meant.

Well I sent an email yesterday to the TN immigrant rights coalition which is based in Nashville, and they sent me back this email today:



So it looks like that they will be doing away with the CFDs in October. So according to this guy my wife should be able to get a real driver's license then. Yippeee!

I wonder what the geniuses in Tennessee will do about people such as your wife when they apply to lift conditions. Most people walk around carrying what looks like an expired card until the 10 year card arrives. Which sometimes takes ages.

Sorry. Didn't mean to take away from your euphoria. But it might be a good question to ask the powers that be.

OMG!! What a thread. I just spent an half hour reading all of this. I LIVE in Tennessee also and my fiancee will be arriving soon. I moved to Tennessee from California because of my job and believe me they do things different here in the south! Some things, such as this, I will never figure out the logic.

After reading all of this it seems my wife will be able to get a DL in October. I am glad that I found this thread becasue I thought it would be relative simple to get a DL for her. Boy, was I wrong! Thanks elgringo for all of your help and insight! I can see you have put a lot of time into this matter. Congrats are in order also. You sure have helped me when the time comes to get my wife a DL.

reach449

Thanks reach.

Well, I thought it was going to be relatively simple also. We took my wife to do the knowledge portion of the test back in May when she got her EAD. I could understand why they gave her a CFD then. An EAD doesnt confer any type of residency status or anything like that to its holder. That was fine, whatever. But I was always thinking, "As soon as she has her green card we can go and get a real license." In fact, she waited way longer than necessary to go and get her DL specifically because we were waiting for her GC to arrive. She could have passed the driving part and gotten a CFD to drive back in freaking June if I would have known that a GC wouldnt let her get a real license.

I'm gonna try and gather all the information thats available about this and go back down there on October 1st and DEMAND that they give my wife a real license and stop the discrimination. (I hope I dont get thrown out of the DMV, hehehe.)

Don't have time to read this entire thread, but a certificate of driving is the same as a license EXCEPT you can't use it for ID purposes. I don't get what all the fuss is about.

Perhaps if you read the thread then you'd understand better. To paraphrase: You can't rent a car with a CFD and insurers like State Farm won't insure you if you have a CFD instead of a drivers license, and if you can get insurance its often at hiked rates. That and its treating legal immigrants to this country like 2nd class citizens in a way that no other state does. These reasons and more are why TN has had the good sense to repeal the law.

Like Dr_LHA said, the "fuss" is that there are several things that you CANT do with a CFD, as he mentioned. Also, the main thing that makes me want to "fuss" is the fact that its just downright discriminatory to offer a legal permanent resident, who has all the same rights as a citizen (except the right to vote) a 2nd class document.....

elgringo,

As you say, the federal government leaves the issuance of drivers licenses to state law.

The USCIS statement that a Green Card can be used when applying for a state drivers license falls far short of being a federal law that requires the states to issue a drivers license to a conditional LPR who has passed the required tests for a license. The states set their own requirements for the issuance of drivers licenses and for what they consider to be acceptable documentation (except when a federal law says that certain items of documentation cannot be used).

Yodrak

Well if a green card isnt good enough to get a license, then whats to stop them from saying that a US birth certificate or passport isnt good enough? Next thing you know nobody in TN will be able to get a DL.

El Gringo -
My husband got his drivers license today with his conditional greencard. He went to Franklin, TN DMV. I wasn't there but he said just showed them his Certificate for Driving License(which he got when he first go here) and his greencard. Doesn't expire till 2010.
I will send you a PM just in case you don't see this post.
Go try again,

Allie

We are gonna go down there on Oct 16th, which is the next day that both me and my wife will be available to go somewhere together on a weekday. (I hate working and going to school..... )

I called the 1-800 number and it said that she will only be eligible to get a temporary license though, so we'll see what happens. I would be a LOT happier with a temp license tho than with a CFD. A temp license is exactly the same as a real one (can be used as ID etc) except it expires when her GC expires instead of lasting the full time like mine does..... Still, way better than a CFD tho and almost not discriminatory.

We went last week and got the driver's license.

They gave us a temporary one, like I expected. It says "Temporary License" on it and is set to expire when her GC expires, which is in June of 2009. I hope when I go to remove conditions the dumbasses at the DMV dont give me any problems renewing the temp license with just the letter that USCIS sends you extending the GC for another year.... I have some sneaking feeling that the retards at the DMV here arent gonna know what to do with it....

Felicidades!! I am glad to see that it worked out for you guys.

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