So today we went to the DMV to get my wife's driver's license. She has had her CFD permit for a few months now. (She got it right after she got her EAD.)

She has her green card now, but its the 2 year conditional one, which, silly me, I thought was the same as the 10 year one so she would be able to get a real driver's license. Thats not the case anymore here in TN. They would only let her get a CFD for driving, not a real license. She cant even get a state ID with a GREEN CARD.... Isnt that crazy? The only thing you can get with the 2 year conditional resident card is a freaking CFD.

I was so mad. Is TN the only state dumb enough to do this? I am almost certain that in other states you can easily get a real license or state ID with a 2 year green card, but not in TN.... I'm really mad too because according to the guy at my bank I need a state ID to get my wife's name changed on the account to her married name. Now if she goes to pay with her card and they ask for her ID, she's gonna show them her green card which has a different name on it than her credit card. What a load of crap....

Anyone else know of any state thats as stupid as Tennessee?

Not sure what a "CFD" is, but that's wrong and you should go back to the DMV to talk to someone else about it, or perhaps go to a different DMV. With a Green Card your wife is entitled to a Drivers License, whether it is conditional or not. My guess is the person at the DMV was either misinformed or ignorant.

Well, I certainly agree that the DMV on the whole, no matter what state, tends to be a stupid organization. Have you tried calling a higher up DMV office because sometimes the more "lowly" workers don't know the real laws. If you really can't get the driver's license can't you get a non-driver state ID?

They gave Andre a Missouri State ID card as soon as he got his green card and social security card. I kind of insisted on it cause I was worried carrying that passport all around. After he jumped through all the hoops to get his license, they issued him a license that expires the exact same day as the 2 year green card. While I was a little peeved, I see why they would do that.

I looked at the TN requirements, and all they require is an EAD or I-551 Green Card (on top of stuff to prove TN residency). There is no wording about the Green Card needing to be a 10 year one. You're dealing with a moron at the DMV here, time to speak to their boss.

Go to a different DMV office you stumbled across a typical clueless moron. You may have to visit an office in a larger city.

An LPR is an LPR Conditional or not.

http://www.state.tn.us/safety/driverlicense/dlcitizen.htm

http://www.state.tn.us/safety/driverlicense/classd.htm#skip2

Go to http://www.state.tn.us/safety/driverlicense/dlproof.htm, http://www.state.tn.us/safety/driverlicense/dlcitizen.htm, http://www.dmv.org/tn-tennessee/apply-license.php and print it off if you have too. I had a real hard time getting my husband's driver's license and complained after we had his DL in hand.

As the others stated she should be able to get a DL with the expiration date the same as the conditional greencard. Good luck.

Mary

YuAndDan,

Some states only accept immigrants at one or two sites for the whole state. Alabama is one of them and they will not talk to you but tell you what city you must apply from.

Sounds like the person was misinformed or an idiot. Try again and ask to speak to a supervisor. Print this out too and bring it with you: http://www.tennessee.gov/safety/driverlicense/dlcitizen.htm

Yup, I was told we had to go to another city to get a DL for James with his EAD. Although, they did say he can apply in our city with his greencard, do you know that that might be different since you seem to know about Alabama?

Sadly to say, I dont think they were mistaken.

I did ask to speak with a supervisor, and she gave me a list of acceptable documents. It says "Proof of Legal Presence - Example: Conditional Resident Alien Card (I-551), Employment Authorization Document (I-765), Valid Foreign Passport with Visa & Valid I-94" All items in this category make you eligible to get a CFD only. (A CFD is a Certificate for Driving. You can drive with it but right on the front it says "Not Valid for ID Purposes." So if you go to buy beer and they want to see ID you cant show them your CFD. It only lets you drive.)

Thats totally crazy to me. In Tennessee, a conditional 2 year card PERMANENT RESIDENT CARD is classified the same as just having a foreign passport and an I-94. What a load of crap.

I would print out whats on their website and take it down there, but I'm sure they'd just show me the page they showed me today and say its the updated version. I need to call my state rep and try and get the law changed I guess.

Wait I don't understand, if A Conditional Green Card is considered "Proof of Legal Presence" by TN, then why didn't they give your wife a Drivers License?


I don't get this comment. If someone has a passport with valid visa and I-94, then they can get a Drivers License. So why is that "a load of crap"?


Sorry but I still think you're dealing with people who don't understand the rules. Your post has just confused me though!

Here in the state of Alabama they do not accept the greencard but at the State Troopers Post on Bankhead Highway in Birmingham and and one city in North Alabama and then Mobile I think for south Alabama (I did not keep the names of the other places since they were too far away).

His CR1 card was not valid at another other post in the state other than the three they use for intake and keeping track of aliens. This is per the Head of DMV in Montgomery Alabama.

Mary

So what happens if his 10 year green card takes longer to arrive than usual? He won't be able to drive until he gets it so he can get a new DL?

Take a look at this. This is the sheet that they gave me.

Notice how it says that a conditional card is only "Proof of Legal Presence" and not "Proof of US Citizenship or Lawful Permanent Resident" (Which is total BS)

See how beside "Proof of Legal Presence" it has a check that says you can only get a CFD with it.....

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/11186034@N02/1063656776/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1383/1063656776_b1d3de2c9c_b.jpg" width="595" height="1024" alt="tndlreqs" /></a>

Sorry to hear about it. I live in another stupid state where they also have very stupid rules.

Here you can only get a permit, drive with another licensed adult in the car for 3 months and then get a provisional license that's valid for 1 year. After that you can get a basic driver's license. This applies to everybody, not just non-citizens.

This is horrible since I live in the suburbs where there's no public transportation so I won't be able to get a job for another 3 months after the EAD.

Take a look at this. This is the sheet that they gave me.

Notice how it says that a conditional card is only "Proof of Legal Presence" and not "Proof of US Citizenship or Lawful Permanent Resident" (Which is total BS)

See how beside "Proof of Legal Presence" it has a check that says you can only get a CFD with it.....

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1383/106365...1d3de2c9c_b.jpg

Alabama and Tennessee are two separate states, the DMV is a state department, so what one state does has nothing to do with how another one handles their driving privileges. There is no national standard with regards to how the states handle drivers licenses.

Wow, that sucks!

Argh, that would mean Decatur for me. When I went to the DMV to get the booklet they told me that he could use his greencard just fine at the office in Huntsville. I guess we will have to call again. Thanks for the info!



If you'll look in the quote in Mary's post you will see that that post was in response to a question I asked about Alabama, not to the OP.

Because "Proof of Legal Presence" and "Proof of US Citizenship or LPR Status" are 2 different things. In TN you can get a CFD if you are just here on a tourist visa. It just lets you legally drive, but cant be used as a legal state ID.



Again, not in TN they cant. Here if you only have a passport and an I-94 you can just get a CFD, not a real driver's license that can be used as an official ID.



I think you are confused on the difference between a driver's license and a CFD.

Looks like they don't know how to read the sheet. Proof of Legal Presence is NOT needed for DL, the green-card IS.

Again visit the DMV in a larger city, and don't keep fighting moronic block heads.

Hola ElGringo,
Nice to see another Mexico VJ member in TN. I am in Nashville. I am still waiting to get my husband's Temp green card. He does already have his Certificate of Driving license. I was hoping when we got his green card soon we could go switch it for actual drivers license. Keep me posted on what you find out.


P.S. He does show his CFD when carded at restaurants. No one has questioned it. Although we realize not a proof of ID -just driving purposes only. Now he also has his EAD card so that should help. However when traveling throughout country on airlines we bring his passport. It is a inconvenience though not to have a real drivers license.

Please keep me posted.

Allie

Yes, but the green card that my wife has is the conditional resident alien card. And according to this sheet, the only thing she can get with that is a CFD.

She cant get a real license because as you can see, a "real" I-551 is required for that.

a 2 year card is real...

but I guess they don't see it that way...

Up until today I thought so too. I looked at the driver's manual and on the website and it never made any distinction at all between a I-551 and a conditional I-551. The first time I heard about it was today when my wife's DL came out of the machine and it was a CFD. I got pretty upset about it and the woman went and got her supervisor who handed me the paper that I've uploaded here.



Yes, in TN they dont see it that way. They see it as being the same as an EAD, or worse, the same as just having a passport and I-94.....

If my husband has any luck in Nashville in the upcoming months I will let you know.
However I'm not liking your experience today and what you found out.
Irritates me just as much.


Allie

it is weird because it totally contradicts whet it says on their site....

like people have suggested I would print off the info from the site and if possible take it and go to a different DMV...

Yea, I think I'm about to write an email to my state senator and rep and ask them why TN feels the need to discriminate against valid permanent resident holders in the issuing of state driver's licenses.

What they should do is issue a valid driver's license but set it to expire at the same time the conditional green card expires. That would be a more rational thing to do than to say that they are ineligible for a driver's license.

Its almost enough to make me want to call a lawyer. Supposedly a permanent resident card gives a person the right to do EVERYTHING a citizen can do, except vote. So how can they discriminate against them in the issuing of driver's licenses?

I dont think it totally contradicts what it says on their site. Their site just doesnt tell the whole story. (Which it should.)

I bet that if I print that off the internet and take it to another DMV, they'd say that yes, an I-551 is proof of LPR status, but that a "Conditional" I-551 is not. Which is BS, but thats what the DL laws in TN seem to say. It seems to me that I'd probably have more luck petitioning my elected representatives for a change in the laws than I would have arguing with people in the DMV over what the current laws say....

Fair enough, time to leave TN I think. Why don't they just give out Drivers Licenses instead of this "CFD" thing? F***ing retarded if you ask me. Sounds like if I lived there I wouldn't have been able to get a Drivers license for the almost 8 years I was present here on a visa.

what I meant was that on thier site it says this...

Acceptable Proof of Residency Documents

*Form I-94 issued to the applicant by the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS)
or
*Employment authorization document (E.A.D.) issued to the applicant by the INS
or
*I-551 issued to the applicant by the INS

if you submit one of them along with one of these proofs...
# Current utility bill including telephone, electric, water, gas, cable, etc. (Must include postmarked envelope bill was mailed in) initial deposit receipt is NOT acceptable
# Current bank statement (not checks)
# Current rental/mortgage contract fully signed and executed, or receipt including deed of sale for property
# Current employer verification including paycheck/check stub, work ID or badge, etc.

etc....


http://www.state.tn.us/safety/driverlicense/dlproof.htm

elgringo, your state laws regarding DL is indeed very draconian. I don't think I've seen a more restrictive state law yet.

On the other hand, I'm not understanding why you're making such a big deal about a DL when TN makes available this CFD. Most other states don't have this CFD and that's why other people complain. For example, in CA, there's only the State ID and the DL, no such thing as a CFD. And we grumble because without a GC or EAD, we can't get a DL for the purpose of driving. But your wife can get a CFD to drive. And her GC is a legal federal ID. So what's the big deal? I'm not understanding why you're so mad.

This draconian law your state has must have been recently implemented. I highly doubt you'll get the law reversed. The anti-immigration sentiment across America is quite high now and it seems TN has spoken quite loudly. Your only real course of recourse would be to move out of TN if you're truly so very bothered by this restriction. But if I were in your place, I'd be satisfied with a CFD. We're more concerned about my wife's ability to legally drive than by some ID. The GC itself will more than suffice as an ID.

Just my thoughts. Good luck trying to obtain your wife a DL for ID purposes.

We can get a regular DL in CA with a passport and a valid I-94.

A DL is good to have not just for driving, but for ID purposes as well. The worst thing in all that is that Elgringo's wife can't even get a regular State ID. This is unfair and doesn't make sense.

The DL you get in CA expires on the date of expiry of the I-94. For a K1, at most you get 90 days on that CA DL. My wife has a CA State ID that expired on the date her I-94 expired. Completely useless.

I don't get your point here. In every other state (that I know of) a person with a Green Card or a Work Visa can get a regular drivers license. This CFD thing isn't available to people who in other states aren't eligible for a DL, it seems like people here on work visas and conditional Green Cards are treated like 2nd class citizens at the TN DMV. Doesn't make any sense at all to me.


Well it flies in the face of the REAL ID Act, so if that is ratified by the state of TN then they will have to issue proper IDs to all aliens who are here legally.


By not giving drivers licenses to people who are here legally? What sort of message is that sending?


I thought you were all about "fight the power", now you're happy about being screwed over by a stupid state law? Some idiot in the TN state legislature thought this was a good idea, its time to contact your representatives to tell them that is stupid. Why punish legal aliens like this?

Well a quick look around the net shows that there are class action lawsuits filed against this law.

If you want to see what's wrong with this CFD have a read of this article:

http://www.tennessean.com/local/archives/0...ent_ID=64110024

A choice quote:

Oh and if you have a CFD you can't rent a car either. I've got some friends who are here on a work visas who just got jobs at Vanderbilt, they going to be pretty pissed when I tell them about this.

It says that in the rush to keep illegals from breathing American oxygen, people who have no clue how residency and visas work are designing licensing laws which preclude legal visitors, workers, and residents from getting what they need.

Oh very strange, I got my drivers license with a green card, but to be be honest i dont think they even asked to look at it

My my, how quick you are to piss on government when it doesn't fit your ideas. Some idiot? Singular? More true to life would be the majority of TN state legislature, along with the TN Governor, approved such legislation.

The TN people, through their elected Reps, have already sent a pretty loud message. You live with it, or leave TN.

Why punish legal aliens for not carrying a GC when their status is clearly a permanent resident even if they don't carry the GC? According to you, it's called THE LAW. And that is TN law. So respect it while it's the law.

This is as stupid as the federal law which requires GC card holders to carry it at all times.

What, we can't contact our local congressman and complain about legislation we think is bogus?

Did I say that? Don't try to put words in my mouth.

Write as many letters as you want. Doesn't change the TN law as it stands and you either live with it or leave.

Trying to change the law doesn't in itself change the law. You still have to obey the current law.

And I'm sure this isn't an old law. If I had to bet, I'd wager that it was recently added within the past 5-10 years, perhaps even less.

I highly doubt TN will reserve course unless the courts null and voids it on Constitutional grounds.

I'm not really opposed to having CFDs per se. Its cool if they want to give a CFD to someone who is here on a temporary visa or to someone who just has an EAD, because those things are temporary and dont really confer immigrant status.

However, I find it TOTALLY STUPID that TN wont accept a conditional green card as proof enough to get a real driver's license. As I stated above, a far more reasonable thing to do would be to issue the real driver's license but have it set to expire with the conditional green card. There's really no reason not to do it that way. Giving someone a CFD thats here LEGALLY with a PERMANENT RESIDENT CARD is just plain dumb. I've made up my mind, I am gonna be emailing my state rep and state senator tomorrow. I dont know how much good it will do, but I feel I have to at least make an effort to let my elected officials know how stupid this is....

Can you point me to where you found that info?

Its a stupid law with that has no logical reason for existing. If you can give me a reason why this law exists, other than "the people wanted it" I'd be happy to debate it.


I doubt the people were informed enough or care enough about the impact of this law on legal immigrants. Of course those affected can't vote.


It is the law, I'm not saying anyone should break the law am I? As you're being so kind to attack me again over something totally unrelated to this thread/post let me point out: I never said that the law that requires one to carry your Green Card at all times isn't a stupid law, I simply said people should obey this law and carry their green cards. I will never advocate breaking the law on this forum. Does that mean I can't come out and say that a some legislation is stupid? Obeying the law and respecting the law are not the same thing. To think you accused someone else of twisting your words!


No this is far stupider. The Green Card carrying law isn't really any more of a burden on legal aliens than the law that requires one to carry a drivers license when driving. This is a law that makes legal aliens 2nd class citizens when it comes to driving a car.

http://www.nilc.org/immspbs/DLs/DL014.htm

Just found this. Apparently TN is the first state to have passed this stupid CFD law crap. And also I found where they introduced no less than 3 different laws to repeal the CFD law this legislative session, but all 3 failed.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thursday, July 29, 2004
Nation watches implications of Tennessee driver certificate


"'This is a disaster, potentially,' said Tyler Moran, an analyst with the National Immigration Law Center, which advocates for the rights of immigrants. 'I really think it's created a bit of a mess.'"

"For once, Moran is in agreement with state Rep. Donna Rowland, a conservative Republican from Rutherford County. Rowland said she would 'absolutely not' advise other states to follow Tennessee's lead."

"'I hope states learn from our mistakes,' she said. 'The certificate of driving will become exactly what the driver's license has become, which is a de facto national ID.'"

"Tennessee's experiment is being scrutinized by numerous states trying to balance road safety against federal immigration policy and homeland security."

I still don't get what the idea behind this law was. In all states people here on work visas, conditional green cards and EADs can get drivers licenses, these licenses usually run out when their status expires. This allows people to drive in the USA while they are legally here.

What exactly is wrong with giving legal aliens drivers licenses, and what problem does the CFD fix?

Its almost as if someone wrote a bill about not giving illegal immigrants drivers licenses (something that used to happen) and at the last minute the spell checker changed all the incidences of "illegal" to "legal".

Really, can anyone please explain the logic behind what Tennessee have done here?

If you have a driver's license you could probably register to vote and whatever else you wanted. Here in the US it pretty much means you are a citizen. I can see the reasoning behind giving CFDs to some classes of immigrants, but NOT to LPRs. (Even conditional ones.)

Doing so would be a felony however and grounds for deportation.


In what way? You need a SS card to get a job in the USA, if an alien can get one it will have those nasty "Not authorized..." words on it. If the problem is employers taking just a DL as proof of being a US Citizen, then punish the employers, not the aliens. DL is just an ID. I don't buy this argument that giving someone an ID somehow gives them the keys to the country. Anyway - we're still talking about legal aliens, who are authorised to stay and work or study here.

Some states issue non-resident aliens drivers licenses that say "non-resident alien" on them but give you every other rights as a driver. Surely that would have been a better idea than this CFD thing?

crazy