Gene and I are big fans of Michael Moore. On Tuesday, while still on vacation days, we thought we'd take in a matinee and see Sicko. I'm still trying to process the movie. I bawled through most of it. I'm so ashamed of this health care system. It is now my system. My word...

Anyone seen the movie? Maybe we can process this together? I think my posting cannot reflect the utter despair I feel, and the shame I feel that people can treat others like this. So I'm making this short and sweet. (for now!)

Carla

I so want to see the movie.. Hubby is not so crazy about Mr. Moore - I'm not sure if I'll get him out to see it or not

Carla,

Indeed, it always surprises me how bad people can treat people.- Have not seen the movie, but can totally share your despair: what can I say? I am a hopeless romantic and think that we're in this world to help each other out.

Cheer up my friend, L.

p.s. GOOD that you posted this on the Canada forum, in OT it would have gone ballistic!!!!

No truer words have been typed! As for the movie...I want to see it, but...I would most likely be in the same situation as Carla...I would cry through the whole movie. Michael Moore is an awesome documentarist (right term?) and isn't afraid to "tell it like it is" no matter how bad. Penn and Teller are just as blunt. I'm the USC and I'm just as horrified....

WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!? No, it's not the right term Karen , so now I will have to shoot you, bash you , and insult you.... , sorry, wrong forum -

I LOVE Penn & Teller!!!! They're fabulous!!!! We should meet someday, girl, I like how you think!!!!!!

Peace, L.

ROFLMAO! Aye, sounds as if we're right thinkers (to coin a phrase from Almaty)

Yeah I got the same here. I guess americans dont like to be the target of a critic. Where are you at lets go together

Michael Moore is out to make money. You don't see him sharing it with anyone. He doesn't do anything to make the country better. He just likes to report the worse case scenario and scare people. Actually, I've noticed that he doesn't have any proof for a lot of the things he's speculating on. We definitely need to make some big changes. I don't like the health care system either but it is overburdened and taking care of people who have never paid into the system. When a few people put in and everyone takes out it's gonna be crappy.

Wow that last comment just made me feel like I was in the Off-topic section Is this still canada forum ?

Moore may embellish on the truth just a bit......I think any movie that makes me sit and think about it's message for a long time after, is well worth my time. One that makes me do something about what I saw, is a gem.

I have not eaten McDonald's since seeing "Supersize Me." Never EVER will again.

Have you even seen the movie Geraghty? If you had, you would know that Michael payed the health care costs anonymously of his most vocal dissident who has a website about him. He also contributes to MANY charities. His movie was basically about a very corrupt HMO political fiasco that is called health care here in the US. One of the biggest changes that could come about is attitudes and beliefs!! Espeically one from the "ME" to the "WE"!!!

"...but it is overburdened and taking care of people who have never paid into the system..."

The above is exactly the attitude to which I speak....What happened to caring for our fellow man? What happened with taking care of people when they're down? These are PEOPLE for gosh sakes. I don't care who paid what when!

Health care should be universal. It is not only in Canada, but in Great Britian and France to name a few. I would suggest that if BILLIONS weren't spent on military expenses, and money being THROWN to "friends" in the pharmaceutical industry, there would be plenty of money around to offer universal health care in the US.
Just MHO.

Carla

Ditto about Mcdonald. And it got reinforced when my huband's ex was telling him she had no money to buy clothes for the boys. She had forgot to change her password to her bank account and he peaked just out of curiosity, and found out she was spending an average of 250$ at Mcdonald every month, add to this about 90 of Wendy's. He knew she couldnt cook good meals but it got worse after their separation. So 300$ in fast food, sometimes 2-3 times in the same day.

I dont know if looked at the special features on the DVD but there is a test with the food. They took burgers and fries from some aroudn the corner places and Mcdonals and put them all at room temperature under glass bells. Some of the around the corner pieces rotten within few days. Took like 2-3 weeks for MCshit and after 8 weeks the MC fries were still intact. They never knew what happened to it because some maintenance girl put it into garbage but still......makes me wonder what is in those fries.

Sorry I'm getting off topic here, back to Sicko!

Yah, well, Twinkies have a shelf life of like 20 years and I still eat them. Sometimes I just can't help myself.

That is kind of nasty about that testing you are talking about. Now, my skin is crawling.

I honestly don't see any documentary as being "a ploy to make money". I think the point of a documentary is to show a particular topic to people so that they can gain knowledge about the topic that they may not have had before.

While Moore can be rather biased (hey, who isn't?), I think the whole point is to show that the health care system in the US has its disadvantages - he's making a comparison about the US health care system to other countries and showing that it's less ineffective than people would like to believe.

I'll go see the movie, but watching it with a grain of salt because you can't believe absolutely everything you see. The point is to formulate your own opinions, too.

For the most part, my USC fiance is also incredibly dissatisfied with the health care system in the US - simply because health care should be made affordable to everyone.

I just don't think it's fair to say that some people should suffer for their illnesses simply because they can't afford to see a doctor.

Tee hee... My hubby thinks he's EXTREMELY biased and has an agenda... which I agree with in regards to Fahrenheit 9-11.. he did appear to have an axe to grind esp against Pres. Bush.. HOWEVER.. i LOVED Bowling for Columbine - and thought it was a very thought provoking piece..

That sounds GREAT!! I'm in CT though..

Our system is flawed. I work at a public health department and we mainly serve those with medicaid or no insurance. We are literally the only place most of these folks can go for care. Referring for specialty care and diagnostic tests can be extremely difficult. Our patients are often told they have to bring $200 or more to an appointment to see a specialist. Most can't afford it. I don't have to watch a documentary to see how horrific the system can be. I see it everyday and it is discouraging. Our system lacks compassion. Compassion has been exchanged for cash.

Just wanted to add...not all americans are against criticism. I'm the USC and quite frankly I think Michael Moore has stirred a bloody hornet's nest with his documentaries...one that NEEDS to be stirred. He opens people's eyes, whether they like it or not. This USC is not bothered one bit.

Michael More has a platform and he useses it well. He has got some results just look at what happened after Bowling for Combine. (think i spelt it wrong) His movies are to make people think. He dosn't always use the right words but he gets his point across just the same.

Healthcare should be a basic human right (along with food and shelter), not who can pay for it. I paid an average of 40% income taxes in Canada and I never CARED if someone paid less (or not at all) into the system than I did.

Another thumbs up here. My USC husband feels exactly the same way as you do and has plenty of criticism about the U.S.

Well, my husband and I went to see SICKO last week. He is the USC and I am the Canadian. One important consideration, Moore is not looking at the US citizens who don't have health insurance - he is examining the many Americans who DO have health insurance and still pay through the nose - or are denied coverage for basic necessities. It is an eye-opening experience and as someone who does have health insurance in the US, I am very glad that as a Canadian citizen I can return to Canada if my health nose-dives because from the personal experiences I have already had, I do not feel at all safe here in the US medical health-insurance for profit system.

The first half of the movie focuses on individuals WHO DO HAVE health insurance in the US but still cannot afford to pay for the medical treatment they require - treatment like re-attaching amputated fingers, like cancer therapy, like a liver transplant . . conditions that are treatable but who were denied for coverage by their health insurers in spite of paying massive premiums. The second half of the movie examines individuals who have similar conditions and how they are treated in other countries with universal health care . . like Canada, France, England and Cuba. The most heart-wrenching part of the movie for me was the 9/11 rescuers who were denied treatment for the medical conditions they developed directly from their work as rescuers during that tragedy. The medicine one woman uses was $150 per inhaler and she required 2 a month. In Cuba, where they were able to receive effective treatment, the same inhaler cost 5 cents. Those scenes of how these men and woman were received and treated in Cuba spoke volumes and I am sure would make many Americans ashamed of how they had been treated at home.

Having a chronic medical condition myself and having health insurance, I know that my co-pays on a number of my medicines here in the US are actually almost equal to the full purchase price of the same prescriptions in Canada - and the 'benefit' listed on the receipt is often 2 to 3 times more expensive than the prescription was in Canada. I have experienced the medical and hospital system in both countries - and I had a longer wait in emergency (7 hour wait with a 'probable stroke' diagnosis upon arrival) here than I ever did in Canada any time I went to emergency. It also took me a longer time to schedule appointments with my GP and my endocrinologist here than it did in Canada, and I have had much longer waits in the waiting room for any of the various doctors I have seen than I ever had in Canada. I feel well-qualified to speak upon this issue.

One other important part of Moore's film - he addresses the 'myths' of socialized medicine fostered by the US 'government and its pharmaceutical backers' and asks some valid questions about the US system. The movie is NOT anti-American - anything but. It is anti-the "ME FIRST instead of WE FIRST" of the highly profitable mega-health insurance industries that try to milk the biggest benefit at the expense of those who are least able to fight back- those who are in need of immediate medical attention. It finishes with a tone somewhat akin to regret - with all that the US does have going for it, why does it fail so miserably in this one area. It doesn't need to.

This leads

Out of my meager salary, I pay $224 a month for full health coverage. As a result, we pay $20 copays to primary care drs and $25 to specialists. Some specialists we have to have referrals to, some we don't. As far as meds go, our insurance has "tiers". One med that I take for asthma that I NEED is $50 a month because I am UNDER 17 years of age, and right now I am taking two asthma meds on a daily basis with two more that I use when I'm in distress. Another that my endocrinologist wants me to take for neuropathy (diabetes related) isn't covered at all because it's marketed as a depression med but it's also recently been shown to treat neuropathy in the extremeties. I have neuropathy in my toes (so far) but I cannot afford the meds for it. Now, if I took everything I've been prescribed the last six months or so, my med bill WITH insurance would come to about $200 JUST FOR ME. Then my husband's meds, and my daughter's seizure med. *feels sick* I'm grateful to even have insurance...but it does make me wonder what will happen if something major ever happens...god forbid it does. It took my husband a bit to get used to the way it goes down here when you're sick.

Just ask him what it was like while I was in the hospital a week from a severe asthma attack...neither of us were pleased to say the least. It was a horrible, expensive experience. Without insurance, the bill would have been $17,000 - thank god I do have insurance!!! Yes, I obviously recovered, but I was there far longer than was needed according to my asthma specialist. My opinion is they knew I had good insurance (now that is debatable) and wanted to milk my insurance for all it could legally, to maybe make up the difference for treating those who don't have insurance. Like I said...its just my opinion. One nurse told me on day 2 of my hospital stay that I was going home...it was five days total and no one could tell me why I was still there. I could have done everything they were doing at home - I have the equipment to do so.

To those who are critical of Michael Moore and his "think about it" style movies...think about the situation we're in...and quite possibly millions more. I applaud his criticism.

Ok i had just wrote a long post and somehow it asked me to log in again and it was lost

So what I said is that I didnt mean to generalise to all americans, i should have wrote "some americans"

It was related to my husband. Now I cant remember exactly all that I wrote, but it was that we talked about all this pride to be an american and stuff liek that before I moved to the US, and he didnt seem to be caring too much about it. But then once I moved I started teasing about all the american flags ( i mean every house and every building has one ) and I had started to tell him to get one everytime we were at the store, and he then confessed me he had one before....It doesnt bother me really, I even dressed in blue/white/red for the 4th of July for the kids, its just I found out he was maybe a little more proud than I thought, maybe he just didnt want to scare me in the first place! But anyways, he never saw any of those movies (Fahreneit 9/11, Supersize me, etc) and when I told him I wanted to see the movies with him, he wasnt too crazy about the idea So thats why I think he just might not like the critic too much.

He also told me couple times that I should get used to the idea of living in that system and stop complaning about it ( not talking about the health system only, but all the differences between Canada/USA) Funny thing is when we moved he had a lot of things he didnt need anymore and got some refund at some stores, and I was shocked that even without the bill ( he rarely keeps them for small stuff) and after a long time he could get his money back, because in Quebec if you dont have the bill your pretty mich doomed, and has to be within 30 days of the purchase and you cannot do nothing about it. Then he got mad because one of the store has a policy of 1 refund with no bill per driver license per year and he had already refund a 6$ item few months ago. He couldnt drop it and talked about it all day. So I told him whats wrong with you, consider yourself lucky for most of it because in Quebec he wouldnt even have one chance. He then said it must have been a Canadian giving them tips.....I was oh whatever SO anyways Im getting off subject here

Lol. Memphys... It sounds like we have similiar hubbies My husband is VERY patriotic (spent 7 years in the Navy), and I do a lot of "grumbling" and "complaining" about life here on my end... We see COMPLETELY different on the political spectrum - He calls me his little hippy tree hugging socalist lefty.. I guess we'll always be so far apart, but the one thing we've done is talked a lot about why we feel the way we do. I have heard his rational for the war in Iraq, the capitolistic health care system, how things would be different if the US did things the "Canadian" way. In it.. I guess I see his point. There is a point to the way things are (albeit somewhat broken), and if we're honest things are "broken" in Canada too in some respects.. And I also value his patriotism.. if only Canadians felt 1/2 that patriotism.. we'd have a very different country.

But i totally agree with the above posters that Heath Care is a BASIC human right.. I don't understand thinking any other way. My husband is used to not thinking this way.. He had a HUGE medical bill from the last time his toddler son was hospitalized (the difference from what the hospital charged and the insurance would pay). He's just USED to big bills like that.. he just deals with it. For me it's like a walking timebomb. Perhaps with time this will change but we're out hiking etc, and I'm like - nooooo get away from the edge.. we can't afford for one of us to slip down the rock face and go to the hospital!!

There's LOTS of patriotism in Canada. Just because there's no maple leaf hanging off the front of each and every house doesn't mean its not there.

What we have in the US is more nationalism than patriotism




Back on topic...I've recently been spending quite a bit of time and money in doctor's offices here in the US and I gotta say "I WANNA GO HOME!"

I pay over $300 per month on health insurance, and even still my last doctor visit cost me $100 for co-pay and lab work. I have a auto-immune disease that requires doctor visits and lab work every 6 weeks, plus prescription medication. I'm gonna go broke. That $100 it costs me for doctor visits is more than half my weekly take home pay, its tough to go and buy food after that! And then there's my husband who also has an auto-immune disease that requires monthly visits, plus several different medications (which he hasn't been going and hasn't been taking because we don't have the money for it)...Gods forbid either of us actually gets SICK!

My husband wants to have children here. The thought of that hospital bill alone scares the freakin ###### outta me! Can you imagine? And then add a child to my insurance policy for another $100 a month or so? Bloody rediculous it is.

Bee just about freaked out when I told him that my vaccinations and my visit to the doctor were free. It was like telling him about milk in a bag.

I can't even comment of the health insurance situation in the US. It scares me beyond belief. Not looking forward to it. Although, we Canadians should feel somewhat lucky b/c if something seriously does go wrong health wise we always have the option of moving back to Canada and getting covered again. May not be the most practical for manybut it is an option.

How sad is it that some people live their lives around what they can afford or not afford to do, in that we have to think of the "what if something happens, can we afford the medical bill" kind of mentality. Having HUGE medical bills shouldn't be something one is used to. I love to hike too...but right now I know I can't because I risk possibly aggravating my asthma to the point that I'm hospitalised once again. Insurance here in the States is business...they are not in it for the health and wellbeing of their clients. It's like I mentioned to my asthma specialist...you'd think the insurance companies would be willing to pay more on medications to keep people healthy so they WOULDN'T need to be in the hospital! It just makes more sense to stay healthy by being able to afford the meds necessary. But hey, the insurance companies didn't ask me. *sigh*

I hear ya Reba...hospitalisation is insanely outrageous, even for something like having a baby! Just guessing here, but a typical pregnancy - no complications and depending on insurance - might have cost somewhere around $10K a few years ago. My last pregnancy (thank god for insurance!) was $27,000 and that was 8 years ago. I did have complications and had to see a specialist, but that part wasn't the major expense. The hospital stay...3 days...was the bulk of that charge. After insurance paid I think the bill (the part I had to pay) was somewhere around $2,000 - $3,000 dollars.

Gawd, I'd hate to even guess what a simple pregnancy would cost nowadays.

When Jerry and I were trying to decide who was going to move where, I told him straight up "I love you, but if you don't have adequate insurance to cover me and my chronic conditions I can't move down there and potentially bankrupt us". I for one would not say Canada's system is perfect, but it makes me sad to say that this issue even had to come up in our discussions.

I had to warn my husband as well that I would need regular medical care from both the GP and the specialist every 3 months, along with the relevant labwork plus prescriptions. The co-pays for the prescriptions alone work out to nearly $200 a month. The GP copay is $20 and the specialists are $40 each visit. My 2 day hospital stay last summer was about $16000 of which our share after insurance was nearly $2000. I dread the thought of anything happening to my husband that would lose our insurance because I honestly don't know if I would be able to afford the treatment I need to stay alive here in the US. I also worry about his health - because of the expenses and the long waiting times in doctor's offices he doesn't bother to look after his own health as he should. I had to nag him for 3 years to get him to book an 'annual' physical and it turns out he does have some issues that need his attention. The medical profession here is so patient unfriendly, however, that getting him to attend to his own health needs is like pulling teeth! He just wants to avoid the hassle of dealing with them and the insurance companies.

Thats the biggest thing that I left behind. A job that would have got me a preventive retreat for most of my pregnancy, and then 1 year covered to stay at home with the baby with 6 weeks from the daddy...

Now here in the US myt husband told me you barely have 6 weeks covered, unless your company agrees for it or something. Like WTF I dont wanna put my baby in daycare at 6 weeks old to go back to work And then that bill......all that scares me frankly. I want a kid in the near future, but im really scared of it.

Yeah, my fiancee wants kids shortly after she gets here, too. I'm a bit scared as to how much it will cost. Granted, I have good health insurance since I work for the state, but I'm sure it will still cost me a pretty penny. I was absolutely shocked when I heard that Canadians get a year of maternity leave. I think it's great, but I was shocked. I too told my fiancee that I think you get six weeks here, and she was floored. It's a good thing she's planning on only working part time once she's legally able to work over here. I couldn't imagine taking a six week old to daycare, either.

I just asked my husband when he got home for lunch about the cost of a pregnancy, how it happened for his ex wife. He said it depends highly on the insurance company and also on what extras you take. For example if you want a private room at the hospital it costs 800$/day to you because the insurance doesnt cover that , etc, etc. But after 3 kids, he never had to pay bills that high. Relieves me a little for the cost part....but of course doesnt change about the going back to work after 6 weeks....

The hubby and I are going to see Sicko tomorrow, but my sister saw it already and agrees with most of you and said it was really informative. I can relate to being insured, but still having a tough time. I pay over $200 a month for our medical insurance, and we pay almost a $200 a month for prescriptions. Our copays are $25 and $35 for specialists. My husband has an eye disease and he has to take eye drops for the rest of his life, and he just started a second one that is a third tier on the prescription list. I have migraines, but I sometimes go without my medication because it is so expensive. We are still young, I can't imagine how it will be when we retire and perhaps will have to take even more medicines. I am afraid of having an lab work done because I don't want to get a bill for it. We constantly receive bills from doctor's offices because they say the HMO did not pay the claim, then me or my husband have to spend hours on the phone trying to get it straightened out.

We probably aren't going to have any kids, but I can't even imagine the medical costs involved. Most U.S. companies don't offer a real maternity leave, all you get is short term disability pay and most companies make you pay for that insurance.

Thankfully I'm not having kids (tubes tied, covered by OHIP!) so I don't have to worry about the bullshit of that 6 weeks thing here.

6 weeks... that is ridiculous! I wish that the concept of family was as important here (and in Canada though the maternity leave in Canada is WAAAAAY better than the U.S.) as it is in most parts of Europe.

Just looked into what I would get if I was a woman and took maternity leave where I work. Basically, you can take up to six weeks of paid FMLA (Family Medical and Leave Act) charged against your sick bank for vaginal deliveries and eight weeks for C-Section. For the child care portion, you can charge the FMLA time off against your vacation bank. After your vacation bank is used up, you can continue unpaid for up to twelve weeks total paid or unpaid.

So, as a potential father, I can also take 12 weeks off, but, only what I have saved in my vacation bank would be paid.

I work at a state university and I'm in a union. Ridiculous if you ask me.

12 weeks total???? only 3 months???? thats sick

Yeah maybe the woman's body is fine....but what about the child??? and if you want to breastfeed???? I dont get it. Thats not human. Specially when its a first kid. I really dont want to think about it now cause I want to wait 2-3 years, but I know its gonna freak me out.

I wouldn't consider myself a Michael Moore fan - think he's often a bit over the top - but the man has a point. The healthcare system in the US - a shame to even call it that - is the worst of any industrialized nation and worse than that of many developing nations. The only thing in which it tops the list is the cost. It's a disgrace for the wealthiest nation on earth to have such a poor excuse for a healthcare system. Michal Moore is right in pointing that out.

And before you smear the man, take note that he even helps those that fill their lives with nothing but distributing useless propaganda against him: Michael Moore Helps His Biggest Nemesis

Not criticizing - but because this thread has been moved, just want to clarify that Canada's health care system is not actually 'free'. We pay for it through our taxes and in Alberta for a family we pay $1056 per year as well to AB health care (or 88 dollars a month as it were).

Don't get me wrong, I 100% support universal health care.

$1,056.00 per annum for a family? Where do I sign up?

I pay about 4 times that just as my portion of the insurance. My employer contributes as well. And that ain't counting Medicaid and Medicare taxes that we get to pay to Uncle Sam on top of that. Altogether the bill easily comes to roughly $10K / year for a family of three. And there are still co-pays in my plan.

Is there some correlation between a Mike Moore post and the vast majority of reply's in here from Canadian twist?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

Yep - this was originally posted in the Canada Forum and was there for a few days before it was moved over here to off topic.

IMHO it should have stayed in the Canada Forum. If it was meant to be in OT it would have been posted here.

No problem.

Thanks Reinhard...we just didn't want to see a nice discussion go all ballistic as is typical in OT.

YAY its back in the Canada forum

Oh, I know Canada's health care system is not "free". What I meant to say was, I didn't have to pay money up front for my visit or for my shots. I'm quite cognizant of the fact that I pay for it through my taxes and $600-ish to BC MSP for myself.

Yay! It's moved back!

Don't forget sales tax. That pays for everything too. Alberta is a wealthy province too so other provinces might pay even more.