I usually post on the k-1 but I have a little situation. My fiance rec'd a call from the garda station informing him that his police cert was being mailed out. The officer mentioned that he had a conviction on his record. Now according to my man he WAS arrested twice once for "disorderly conduct and then again for a fight in a bar on Paddy's Day(both over 3 years ago). He swears he never went to court-or paid fines of any kind, so does anyone know how he could have a conviction? I know I am jumping the gun here, I realize we won't know for sure until we see what the police cert says-but I thought someone here may have some insight.


Could the bar fight have been an assault conviction? Would he be deined his k-1? Will he need a waiver?


I couldn't find the "crimes of moral torpitude" list, so I am not sure what we are up against.

It is always something


Thanks all

It is most likely a Caution will show on his record.

I got one as well for being drunk & Disorderly (swore at a cop who punched my friend). i admitted it on my application and wasn't even asked at the interview as I gave an explaination in a letter when I filed my application to the Embassy.

Ewwwwwww.

Let's look in waivers forum for the answer, Colleen.

Crap. My prior post looks idiotic. I didn't realize what forum we were ALREADY in! Duhhhh.........

I found this HERE and it relates to Crimes of moral turpitude. It's all in legal jargon which I always have a hard time understanding. It does state that: the presence of moral turpitude is determined by the nature of the statutory offense for which the alien was convicted, and not by the acts underlying the conviction.

Because he was arrested, this would automatically show up on his Garda Cert, court or no court. I just really don't know how the U.S. views this.

In Ireland, the path an arrest takes is: Arrest, Charge, Convict. An arrest means they took him temporarily into custody, whilst they decide if they will charge him with a crime, you have been arrested but not convicted and are therefore not guilty of a crime. A conviction means you have been found guilty or pled guilty to a crime. But, you can have a conviction on your record if you paid a fine, did community service or were put on probation.

When he receives his Garda Cert, it'll be more clear as to what is actually on record. Hopefully, it was just an arrest and a warning.

Thanks everyone

He should have the police cert within the next few days-along with his packet three..............he informed me today that he is off to Kerry for 2 weeks to work(construction) great money but bad timing, now he will have to wait to see what the police cert says. He said he spoke to the woman at the garda station and she was very nice-I have been talking to her as well. I guess I won't know anything for a week or so.


I am going to kill him

He swears he was never convicted of anything so this should be interesting! He says he was taken to the station after a fight but was sent home right after.


I will post when I know more.

On form ds-230, it asks if you have ever been convicted of a crime of "moral torpitude?" would a fight consitute a "yes" answer to that? I would think no!

I know on ds-156 it asks if you have ever been arrested and I know he would put "yes" depending on what the cert says, but what kind of letter did you submit? Was it just an explanation of events? I guess he could put "I drank too much wiskey?" bad joke I know. Just trying to sort this out.

Thanks Leroy




Thanks Mand you are a star


I think he may be alright-if things aren't so bad(depending on what the conviction is for-and what it says) he should have a chance to explain-a bar fight-may not be considered a crime of moral torpitude.

I am telling you-he wrecks my head

I think I would give him a good boot up the hole (excuse my language) for not divulging that piece of info There is no rhyme or reason to how most Irish lads think at all, although you're probably well aware of that by now

He has to get his head out of there before I kick him

He did say he was arrested on Paddy's Day a few years ago but he said he wasn't kept in the garda station or anything-him and a few of his mates were taken from outside the pub then let go.

We both figured it wasn't going to be a big deal. He did ring me at 6:00 this morning so I didn't really get a chance to speak with him about any of it. I was too busy roaring at him for gong away for 2 weeks-because the packet will be sitting at his house. If he was "convicted" of something he will have to fill out a new ds-156 form because I checked "no".

Guess I'll know more in a few days

Thanks for that link-it helped a lot!!!!!

found this: according to this-fighting is NOT a crime of moral turpitude-maybe this will help others

It has been held that the following offenses are crimes involving moral turpitude:
• Fraud or false pretenses in obtaining something of value
• Larceny or a misdemeanor theft by taking
• Larceny after trust
• Murder
• Soliciting for prostitutes
• Voluntary manslaughter
• Sale of narcotics or other illegal drugs
• Pattern of failure to file federal tax returns in years in which taxes are due
• Criminal Issuance of a bad check
• Making a false report of a crime

The following have been held to be offenses which are NOT crimes involving moral turpitude:
• Public drunkenness
• Driving under the influence
• Carrying a concealed weapon
• Unlawful sale of liquor
• Fighting
• Simple Battery
• Simple Assault
• Misdemeanor criminal trespass
• Child abandonment
• Misdemeanor offense of escape
• Misdemeanor offense of obstructing a law enforcement officer
• The federal misdemeanor offense of Conspiracy in Restraint of Interstate Trade and Commerce
• Possession of less than one ounce of marijuana

Yes, this is a Crime of Moral Turpitude, any crime against a person is considered CMIT, Assault, robbery, rape --- you get the just here--- my husband and I just had our interview for his K3 in Vancouver Canada-- he had one conviction for Assault it was 22 years old --- he also had some petty things from earlier in his youth like stealing a chocolate bar. But never having served time or paid a fine is not the order of the law here. What is focused on is the maximum sentence for the crime -- Assault is 6 years I believe as the maximum sentence --- So, if I was you, I would do as we did, plan for a wiaver to be the process you will take and prepare it for submittal immediately after he is denied the visa for the CMIT ---

Go to the www.immigrate2us site and you will find several examples of letters to help you get started --- you can also email me privately and I can discuss some of the things we did in preparation and give you some samples of our letters. Bear in mind we have not been approved yet but the fellow at the consulate told us that barring any unforseen items coming up we should receive word of a waiver between 3 to 12 weeks --- having such a fresh record, I am sure he will have to submit a waiver --- so just start doing your homework now, collect doctors letters or whatever ---

As you can see by the previous post of Irishgirls, not all crimes against a person are considered CMT. Simple assault is listed as not, as is fighting. The crime of assault includes a broad spectrum of misconduct, ranging from relatively minor offenses, e.g., simple assault, to serious offenses, e.g. assault with a deadly weapon. Simple assault and fighting are not CMT.

I would tend to agree with Lorelle here; if this was a simple scuffle of the type that many young men become involved with (and from what you've told us that sounds like what it was), I don't think you should lose too much sleep over preparing a waiver. The types of assault that constitute CIMTs would probably be aggravated, violent assaults or sexual assaults, not a few guys having too much to drink and exchanging some shoves or punches. Not that we want to encourage bar fighting. But a lot of UK/Ireland applicants have posted about stuff like this, and from what I've read, it's not an issue.

Just make sure that Gavin knows that it's very important to come clean about it when he's asked (which he will be)!

OK I know all about this kind of thing as I have just went through it,IF your man has a conviction then he was arrested and charged and that is a CMT,as my wife said earlier in this post,I had several convictions of various types on my police record,from theft to assault and we got our waiver together a couple of months in advance as we was 99% sure we would need it,when I had interview in Vancouver(on a side note has anyone traveled farther for interview 5500 miles?)and the guy was pretty cool about it all looked at all my stuff and picked the last one,bit of a serious assault and denied me on that one alone so there you go but I am reminded of the case of Liam who got caught and charged with theft(4 cans of lager) and a breach of the peace I think and he got his visa only to be turned away at the POE and told to get a waiver for his crimes so if I was you I would prepare for the worst and if nothing happens then your home and dry,but if something does then you are ready there and then,but I strongly advise you NOT to hold anything back as it might come back and bite you later,anyways best of luck

What? Some periods could help.

We're not talking about a pattern of convictions for theft and assault. We're talking about what are more likely arrests and cautions, rather than convictions. I'm sorry you had to file a waiver, but don't induce panic in someone else whose situation is not comparable to your own. Plenty of applicants in the UK and Ireland have had similar spots on their police records, have subsequently disclosed the nature of the offenses at the interview, and have not had to file waivers.

Liam's case was one in a million, and not likely to be repeated. His situation was complicated by medical problems as well. There's no basis among these three cases--yours, Liam's, and the OP's--for a fair comparison.

Oh just read all the threads again and I think you will find there is no such thing in criminal law as "simple assault" or "fighting?"if you look assault comes under s39 criminal justice act 1988 and is classed as
"any intentional or wreckless act,which causes a person to apprehend immediate unlawful force or personal violence"
max sentance 6 months/or£5000 fine,
ok I know that we are talking Ireland here but I cant see there being a lot of difference,but what you have to remember here is these people at the embassies do get trained on what and what not represents CMT so there you go...........as I said be prepared!!!!!!!!!

I think we should just wait and see what shows up on the actual Police Cert and refrain from "panic stations" at the minute

Amen.

Liams case for the waiver was soley due to his crimes ok,that is what he told everyone on here.............and Im not trying to induce panic Im trying to help these people get prepared if it does go pear shaped ok,I think it would cause more panic if you go for interview without being ready to file........some of you people live in cloud cuckoo land Im sure!!!!!

They have not received the Police Cert yet, and are therefore not 100% sure of what is actually stated on the cert. However, once they receive this, they can act upon it if accordingly. Read the posts properly and you will realise that we are not advocating anyone to stick their head in the sand, the OP and ourselves have merely stated that they will wait until they have all the information in front of them...and then act upon it.

Thanks for all the posts everyone. I should know what the police certificates says this coming Monday, when he gets the mail. There is a fine line between assault, simple assault, assault with a weapon.

All of the forms will be filled out HONESTLY, If the police cert shows a conviction, I will prepare to be asked to file a waiver-just in case. I also know that each case is viewed differently. I know that he would be able to explain what happened and maybe that would be enough. I am talking about one conviction-not several. It was a fight that resulted in himself and 8 others being taken from the pub. No one was hurt and no one served any time in jail.

I just looked up crimes of moral turpitude on the Dublin Embassy's website, It seems to be a grey area-could be viewed as a simple little fight, or could require a waiver. I think the fact that his record is pretty clean other than this incident-will help him. Either way I will be prepared. I will let you all know what it says as soon as I know

just found this on the web as well:

However, assaults not involving dangerous weapons or evil intent have been held not to involve moral turpitude.