I was reading in a local Detroit paper today that there are churches all over the USA giving protection to illegal immigrants, and the local police departments and Homeland Security offices aren't going into the churches to pick them up for fear of a public backlash. After going through the process and finally completing getting my wife back after a year ordeal, and seeing her family go through a much harder process for 15 years, this really gets to me.

Everyone here is spending the thousands of dollars and more importantly the insane amount of time it takes to do it the right way, going through the mental fatigue that hits us all, and these people dodge it all, and then get protected?!? If I hear the argument one more time that "It's going to split our family up and we can't be together," I'm going to puke. Everyone can be together in their original country while they file the correct paperwork to get in legally, and use all the benefits that come along with living in such a great country.

Sorry had to rant, I just don't understand the "pride" marches and everything claiming that sneaking into a country or living there illegally isn't breaking the law

Doesnt really bother me at all. I have been through out the world and seen much poverty. And if I was in the situation, I would do all i could to go somewhere else and have a chance at a better life.

Agreed with what Flames9 said except I haven't been all over the world. Doesn't bother me.

They do this for a better life for them and their families. As I said before, as long as there are people/big business willing to hire undocumented workers, they will come. Even if they get half the minimum wage its a whole lot better than what they make in their own country.

Instead of breaking the law those people could work harder to improve the conditions in their country, as the forefathers did in the United States. I don't understand any opposing viewpoint for this one Lol.

I'm also willing to bet if anyone had a harder time with the immigration process than most do on these forums, your viewpoint would change considerably. My wife's family fled former Yugoslavia as it was being bombed and as Slobodan was butchering those people he didn't want around anymore, but they found a way to do it legally, and went through a horrid process that took 15 years before they were finally denied and had to leave the US.

You can't justify to me having poverty be a reason to break the law. I know conditions in some countries are incredibly bad, but isn't that all the more reason to not start a family if you feel the conditions are miserable? Work hard for yourself to create a better environment there, or do the process legally.

I guess I sigh when I see the posts about "illegals".. there are a lot of them on VJ and I guess my problem as a CDN I don't have anything to reference it to.. We don't have another country beating down our doors to get in, we welcome immigrants & refugees alike whole heartedly, and generally I think embrace our immigrant nation. So I think for me it's harder to not just react with a gut reaction of why does everyone dehumanize these people and call them "illegals"??.. when each one has a face, a story a name.. can't change those facts.. on the other hand it's also not my country that is missing out on millions of tax dollars and is trying to find a way to deal with the enormous numbers of a population that doesn't have a legal right to be in the country. So I guess I'm a bit torn on the issue.

I understand also the K-3'ers and such who have spent time apart from each other and have done things the right way out of belief that they wanted to obey the law - I can appreciate their anger.. however; the few illegals I have met are men who work in construction, who's families are back in Mexico and who send every penny back there.. Do they want to immigrate? or do they just want to make some money to send back home? I've been afraid to ask that question in OT - but it's the one in my mind.. do any of these people actually WANT to move their families here? or are they just wanting to make $$ and send back home to build a better life? Does the US really have a good grasp on what these people want who are here illegally?

In that case the US has bigger issues -it's not an immigration issue then - it's a migrant worker issue, which I don't think they have a structure in place for that.. Other than TN visa -

They are typically dehumanized because they are completely ignoring the rules of our society to benefit themselves. I personally get upset because there is a legal way to simply work or become a student in the United States, but generally these are never looked into. My state of Michigan is currently one of the worst economies in the entire country, foreclosures are up, crime is beginning to rise, and all this is due to the work and job conditions. You can't get me to agree that someone working here illegally, paying no taxes, and then sending that money out of the country deserves to have that ability. The taxes and costs of medical and such are great in the United States, and I dislike how I'm doing my share to make sure those I love and myself are taken care of, while others can completely bypass the entire system and get these same things.

My biggest peeve is how the group of illegal immigrants seem to be gaining pride in their breaking of the law and think they deserve anything. I wish it was just a case of everyone who wanted to come into the country could, but the very real reality is that this would cause the country to fall to the very level of the ones people are fleeing, as the country can't support that many people and such. I do feel for those who are in those situations where they are living on the streets and such, but even America has homeless folks and such that could use resources from our government to help them along their way that end up going to someone that enters illegally.

my viewpoint as a cdn about longer waiting times would probably tick off other Cdns! lol I know my CR-1 was pretty quick in 2004--6 months, but if it taken longer so be it!! I'm in Canada, with a lot of luxaries, and not in some 3rd world country starving!! My job in the Cdn Forces ended in DEc 2004, and if my visa wasnt done by then, iwould hav eput stuff and storage and chilled with my parents in Saskatoon. I understand being away from ur loved one sucks, but others have it worse!!
I did UN peacekeeping in Croatia in 1993, beautiful country, not going to get into the politics on that one. In my Armed Forces travels, seen little kids swimming in sewer systems,and some horrible living conditions. These people try and better themselves, but their govt do little. many of them are corrupt. The rich live in luxary, whil ethe poor suffer. Much that way in NA as well.

My question would be then why bring a child into that world when having one gives you the choice of breaking the law and supposedly having to look over your shoulder everyday, which could possibly end up leading to your entire family being separated later, or forcing a child to live in those bad conditions too?

well in some of these worls, u just cant goto a drug store for pretection!! I'm not a religious person--but doesnt the catholic church say a big no to contraceptives?? And yes, you could argue sjust say no to sex (what Bush preaches) but that isnt a very logical arguement!!
Time for a jog!! work off all that excess beer. cheerio

For many people in 3rd world countries birth control is a foreign thing and just isn't easy to obtain. For others it is a religious thing.

I understand your frustration bowflex. What your wife and her family has gone through is truly unimaginable to me. And then to get to North America and have such a tough time just to stay here doing it the legal way is so disheartning. I also get upset with people that aren't doing things legally and have a big problem with those that are sucking on our systems that my tax dollars are paying for. I do feel for those that are just trying to get a better life for their families. We on this board realize how much conflicting information is out there and bad advice people get from people, ie, lawyers, friends, family, clergy and yes, even the USIC itself. Many are just ill informed and don't have the ability or resources to do things the legal way. Does that make it excusable? No, but until the govn't itself can get some better policies in place there will always be problems with illegals. I wouldn't be holding my breath waiting for those pigs to fly.

For the first part, I just feel that if the person is willing to use their family as the reason to break the law and enter another country illegally, maybe do the INCREDIBLY hard thing and just not have sex. I know it's not very feasible, but if thinking of one's child suffering is enough to make them do an immoral thing and break the law, maybe it should also be enough to simply save that child from having to go through living in an awful spot or having them also break the law.

The policies are definitely awful which are currently in place, but we've all had to find a way to get the right information and do the procedures correctly in order to bring others in or to get in ourselves. I'm just under the impression that if you want something bad enough, somehow there could be a way found to get the job done.

Exactly, and that is what those people have done. They want their family to be in the US so bady that they have taken refuge in the church.

I can admit I'm petty enough. Considering the time we've been having, it does bother me.

I think the people who would probably be more versed on the topic of illegal immigrants would be any Native American
They know all too well about people setting up shop illegally in every corner of North America. So in a sense wqe are all illegal immigrants I guess
Just my view on this

it doesn't upset me. IT MAKES MY VERY ANGRY!!!

enough of the wha wha sniffle sniffle sympathy.

its a direct insult to everyone on VJ, to set here & say "oh well its ok"

they want to come and have a better life, fine, do it. who doesn't want a better life for themselves and their family. however, they can ALL file for asylum. even refugee status can lead to citizenship eventually. you don't even have to have come to the US legally to file. you just have to FILE. file SOMETHING. don't just take the sissy way out. there are options. just sneaking in and remaining illegal is not the only option. there are things to file for even if you do not have a legal status. do it. THAT shows how much you love your family...ensuring their future in the US...this land they came for a better life. homeland security spends sooooooooo much money deporting people. there are people getting deported because they got a speeding ticket and were caught. there are people being sent back ALL the time. and at the same time they want to give them a chance to stay? that doesn't make any sense. they ALL had the option to file for SOMETHING to ensure their stay in this country. no excuses. no reasons to not be in a legal status. take that step, THAT shows how much they love their families, not hiding out in a church.

I suppose that is why they have this new immigration bill put forward... to legalize all the undocumented people in the country.

they had that option when they entered the US. the us was bombing the country i came from back in first grade...we still managed to file papers and remain legal. there is NO excuse. you do NOT have to be of legal status to file numerous applications. that is what people do not seem to understand. they care so much about a better life...file the paperwork. either before coming to the US to ensure your family's future, or after you arrived here if conditions somehow made you think it was ok to come illegally. read up on asylum, refugee. heck try the humanitarian and compassionate route. there are options. there are no excuses. if you are going to claim you love your family enough to make them hide in a church... you should've loved them enough to make sure they never had to. innocent people don't hide. illegal immigration is just that...ILLEGAL. so if a million killers decided to march and petition they would get their way, too? they had a picture of someone with a shirt on that read "i am illegal, so what." these people did not care enough to learn their options or chose to ignore them and now they want special treatment. they endangered their lives and those they cared for. that is not love. file SOMETHING.

and who do you think is going to process all these illegal immigrant visas if the bill passes? you guessed it... the same people who are processing those of the people here on VJ. you think 5-7 month wait at montreal is bad? that's nothing. i'd like to see all of you after they get their way. see how fast you're going to b*tch how much longer it takes for those of you who are trying to do things the legal way and ensure your future is secure.

I don't understand the situation enough to make a judgment one way or the other. I've heard lots of impassioned statements from both sides, but I think the situation is probably quite complex and I have no way of knowing all the ins and outs of the situation from all the way up here in Canada, because our attitude towards immigrants is quite different; our birth rate is so low that immigration is the only way to sustain our population.

I dated a man who came to Canada as a religious refugee after being rejected by both the US and Australia, despite his life being in danger and the flagrant persecution of his people by the government. He was so grateful to be given asylum, and to have a chance to get a post-secondary education and therefore a chance to make a decent life for himself.

I suspect Canada might be able to afford a more open-armed policy because a) our population would be shrinking without new blood, whereas the US is already stuffed to the gills with people, b) we don't share a border with a country that constantly has thousands of illegals flooding across it, and c) not everyone and their dog is trying to get in here. Canada is a 'nobody' on the global stage, whereas the US, uh, sticks out. The US is seen as the 'Golden Land of Opportunity' while we pass under the radar. This is a bit ironic, because it could be easily argued that we have as good a standard of living as the US if not better: the poorest Canadian has more access to health care than their American counterpart, which is huge. Maybe it's the Canadian Winter that scares them away!

I do think that illegal immigration directly hurts those trying to legally immigrate, which is unfair. From that standpoint, it bothers me, but on the other hand, I've never lived in a mudbrick hovel without water clean enough to safely wash the dirt off my open wounds. I can't really cast judgment.

There are alot of ways to look at this. And there is no simple solution to the issue of illegal aliens.

Wether you not you want to admit it, illegal aliens have a large economic part to play. Taking all of them out of the picture would send the US economy into quite a recession. Americans demand cheap goods and services. Which in turn requires cheap labor. Not enough Americans are willing to satisfy the labor demand. A demand is created for labor outside the country. Immigration law doesn't allow these types of people into the country. They enter illegally to satisfy the demands of the American economy. This is exacerbated when the economy is booming and unemployment is very low. When the economy slows down illegal aliens become the scapegoat for taking all the jobs, not to mention that they are taking the jobs that most Americans really wont do.

Yes there is no dispute that these people have broken the law coming and staying in this country illegally. But does the law really reflect the realties of today? There is no visa for most of these immigrants. Many live in poverty much worse than poverty in the US. How far would you go, if faced with it, to get your family out of poverty? Asked that question, breaking a law like immigration doesn't seem so bad. It doesn't make it right but one could morally justify it. Making the trip to the US, is not without its perils, many have died crossing the deserts over the border with Mexico or coming cramped in a container from China.

Some object to the concept of immigration out of xenophobia. And would rather keep everyone not like them out and limit as much as possible even legal immigration into the country.

In my opinion, the US made a mistake in not creating an unskilled worker visa 20 years ago, before we had so many illegal aliens in this county. But now that we do, we cant simply say go home. Forcing them would be expensive and impractical and our economy will take quite a hit when 12+ million people leave. Which will cause everything from higher prices to industries downsizing.

So whatever plan we do come up with, needs to for practical purposes grandfather those people already here into a legal status. I not staying, enter illegally and you get legal status, but instead find a way to grant some kind of legal status to those already here, and anyone who enters illegally afterwards, well gets deported. I think what would be best is something like LPR status, but without possibility for citizenship. And leave citizenship for those who enter on a regular immigrant visa. That way those already here can stay and work, and pay taxes. And we don't have to waste money deporting those who will likely renter anyway but instead put the money into improving legal immigration.

I don't any side is this debate cant get everything they want. There will always be a demand for cheap labor, unless Americans themselves are willing to work in janitorial jobs or meat packing plants for next to minimum wage, that wont change. We cant secure the border without creating legal immigration for unskilled workers. And we cant possibly deport all the illegal aliens without and still continue economic growth (well after a nasty recession it would likely rebound but it could be a few years.)

The difference being you don't hear Native Americans griping about illegal this and illegal that. I'm not angry with the white man for coming here and tearing my ancestors from their homeland...nor do I consider them illegal but I do understand your point. For the most part, and to anyone who sees me I look white, but I'm more Native American than I am anything else. Sometimes I wish more education was available in our schools about who was actually here first...

Oh gawd, that gets me off on another tangent and I don't want to hijack this thread.

They are coming in ilegally.. because they have no other way...

there is alot of families that are here ilegally and they are good people, they work hard like you and me they have kids here, they own a home here..
meaning that they are good US. residents but yet they hunt them down like dogs ... doesnt make sence...!!!

They should use their funds for better hunt downs.. like terrorists..

I dont have anything against these poor people...

sorry

Whether or not the people that have come to the United States are good people or work hard, that matters to exactly nothing. If someone breaks the law, say by robbing someone because they are living in poverty and need the money, the way they live their life after that moment doesn't go into determining whether or not they should be charged and sentenced if found guilty. I do feel for the people that have it really bad, but by just logic alone, why does that one person or family's peril give them anymore right to sneak into a country and break the law over someone else? If you use that argument that means anyone that lives in a third world country should have the ability to sneak into any country they want, and we all know that if that kind of unlimited action was taken every country in the world would be taken down a few levels.

As for the old argument "jobs that Americans won't do," that's simply not true. Every service in this country ends up costing exactly what the public is willing to pay for it, which is the very essence of a supply and demand capitalist system. People would simply stop buying oranges or bananas if the price went up too high after the companies had to pay their workers a fair wage, so the market would fix itself and everyone would end up being happy in the end. Most people don't want to wash dishes in the back of a hot restaurant (a job I had back in high school), but they make up for it with a higher wage to make it worth your while, and voila, you end up having people fulfill those jobs. If companies began going under because they had to begin obeying the law by not hiring illegal workers, you wouldn't hear many people complaining because other companies fight through those very same hurdles the entire time they're in existence and everyone should play by the same rules.

The United States definitely needs immigration reform, but offering people that broke the law a way to citizenship is not right. No matter how you look at it, even if the person has been in the US for 40 years and has worked every day of those years, giving them a way to citizenship is indeed rewarding someone for breaking the law. Anyone that's already here should have no more right to citizenship than someone that is enduring the same horrors that the other person did before. Both are or went through hard times, but breaking the law is NEVER the answer. If someone falls on hard times in the States and sees their house going into foreclosure, no one would say it's okay that they go and rob a bank or something to make sure their family doesn't go homeless. Breaking the law is breaking the law.

No. Especially after going through this process. It is stressful and expensive. And the immigration system is no where near perfect. I wonder how many people they "weed out" by making it as complicated as possible, and by having us (pay to) submit the same information in duplicate and sometimes triplicate. It's ridiculous and there is DEFINITELY a better way to do this. It is daunting and intimidating.

Desperate, poverty-stricken people and families do not even have enough money to file the paperwork fees, let alone have the money to sustain themselves in the US; and as you know, these are both requirements for legal entry.



This reminds me of "Les Miserables"; do you fault Jean Valjean for stealing a loaf of bread to save his family's life?

Yes, stealing a loaf of bread or crossing the border without the proper papers is illegal, but the reason these people break the laws is because their country failed them. Mexico's government has failed its people and forced their hand.



For free? These people have NO money. None. If you don't have any money, you cannot immigrate legally. That is not an option.

If you had to choose between legal death/suffering (for you and your family) and illegal life in a neighboring country, what would you choose?

The reason they can remain in the US illegally, is because US employers are willing to hire them to do the worst jobs for cheapest wages. That, IMO, is where the problem lies. If US employers did not hire illegal workers in the first place, there would be no illegal immigration problem. And as others have already mentioned, US employers have been relying on illegal workers so long that the economic ramifications of removing these people from the US (which is virtually impossible anyway) would be near catastrophic.

As much as it seems America complains about illegal immigrants, deep down, it also knows that it's a case of "we'll scratch your back if you scratch ours" (meaning, if you come here illegally, we'll still hire you and reap the benefits), which is why the US is trying to figure out a way to get status for those who have already established themselves here.

Breaking the law is breaking the law, as I've said before. The United States has its own homeless population, and none of these people can break the law to help their situation without being prosecuted for it. If someone is in another country and is miserably living their life, they simply should NOT have a family. If the person is unwilling to think that their actions may lead to having children and forcing them to go through exactly what they want to escape, than they shouldn't be able to later say that they needed to illegaly enter because it would be good for their family. The ends justify the means never really worked for my brain, although I can understand them trying to justify it, but it simply shouldn't be done.

As for companies hiring illegal workers, I'm completely in agreement, that is a huge problem and they should be driven out of business if they do it. But do keep in mind, a whole bunch of illegal immigrants actually get a hold of fake documentation and work that way, and in some cases the companies don't even know that they were illegal.

The system is clearly flawed, but it is in no way the United States' duty to help citizens of other countries who have had their governments fail them. The United States already routinely gets attention from the rest of the world for sticking its nose in other countries' affairs, and this is both warranted and unwarranted of course.

I've seen my wife's family enter the country and file for asylum legally without much money, but then they worked their butts off and made enough money to pay the fees that are needed for it and bought a home, cars, etc. There is absolutely no reason that someone should be able to use the money objective when breaking the law and entering a country. If you were walking down the street and a homeless person came up to you and robbed you blind, I doubt greatly that you'd go home right away, not call the police, and just say that they were justified in breaking the law. There are indeed ways to do the process legally, and the fact that millions of people bypass the system, then have the sheer disrespect for American law to go around in marches and parades saying they're not criminals and deserve ANYTHING that someone who did it legally deserves is pathetic.

Also regarding the huge "recession" or such that would occur from deporting the illegal immigrants, this is simply not true when one studies the economic situation. The companies that have the illegal folks picking fruit, cleaning up disgusting places, etc. would either have to adapt to the market or go under. Every other market in this country has to deal with this situation and have thrived or gone under if its not deemed important to the public.

There are NO jobs that Americans won't do, they just have to be paid for their work. Most folks don't want to sit out in the hot sun all day and cut lawns or do construction, but that is also why typically there are higher wages for those types of jobs. The worse the job is, obviously the more financially-liable the company will have to be, and that's the way the system has been built and has thrived for hundreds of years.

At the very beginning prices of some goods would go up, but the public would not be willing to spend the money, and the company will either figure out a way to efficiently produce their product while supplying their product, or they will go under. Car companies in the States and around the world are a clear sign of this. American companies right now are having trouble because they aren't able to do this, but international companies are flourishing because they pay their workers fairly but also keep everything efficient.

I believe that illegal immigration is a problem, because it sets up a very bad situation where the wealth and growth of the United States is dependent upon having a permanent Hispanic, illegal underclass. Societies like that are not stable.

I think that any reasonable solution will secure the borders (though I think a fence is dumb), work with Mexico to improve their economy (cut off the supply), punish employers who break the laws (cut off the demand), give ICE the resources to enforce overstays, and give a path to citizenship for those already here. I think that if any one of those conditions isn't met, any sort of reform will fail.

But I don't think, for reasons documented elsewhere, that I have a right to be more upset because I did it legally. Honestly, the requirements for a legal marriage-based visa are so low. I had to prove that I met C. once in the previous two years, and once we marry, he'll have a green card number automatically generated for him. One meeting. More or less automatic green card. And that makes him more worthy than someone whose parents brought them here as an infant and has lived here for 20 years? Behold the power of sex.

I don't find the argument "I had to do it legally" at all compelling. This process has been a royal pain in the ###, but I don't know. It just doesn't make me all that angry. "Are you jealous because I am generous?" and all that.

On one hand, I grinch a little bit about going through the process legally and they don't, blah blah. On the other hand, I honestly get more cross with US companies perpetuating the historical cycle of employing illegals under the table. Breaking the cycle would help.

More than just going through the process myself, I'm more angry with this because of what I've seen my wife's family go through. I previously posted that I realize that most of us have a relative cake-walk with this. My wife and I had some hopeless times with the process, but in the end it took about a year and a month. My wife's family immigrated to the US and was documented and did everything legally for 15 years, then were denied and were promptly to be deported back to a wartorn area that has since seen their former country break up THREE times! Her family put in tens of thousands of dollars, worked hard to own a home, put their daughters through school, and just live the American dream, but they weren't allowed to live this on, and now they're again going through the same thing in Canada.

Heck even a family friend of her parents got deported, hired a lawyer and got back, but has been visited by Homeland Security and almost got deported again before she could produce all the paperwork showing they were allowed to reenter. She's not even allowed to work for 2 whole years for some reason, but they still are thankful they're back in the country and have that ability.

You can't possibly tell me that anyone deserves what my wife's family or their friend has gone through, but if they had to go through all of those problems, no one should be exempt from it simply because they decide they don't want to go through the process legally. I agreed with every solution you stated except for giving those who are already here a path to citizenship, because there is no difference in my mind between breaking the law 20 years ago or doing it today. Who's to say that someone sneaking in today doesn't have it decided that they'll work their butts off for 12 hours a day just like the person who already got in? The time that someone broke the law really shouldn't have an impact on whether or not they should be here. The bottom line is the law was broken and it's time to hold those who did it accountable, at least to me.





I could not agree more. Any company who knowingly hires illegal or undocumented workers should be fined so heavily that it simply wouldn't make sense to do it. Someone can be charged for knowingly harboring a fugitive, so I don't see the changing of the law to include that being too hard to do.

This is just my presonal opinion... I think what this thread should have been called is "does the US govt. policy on immigration upset you big time too?"

You are mad since your wife and her family did things the right way and still got deported and people from Mexico and Latin America come in undocumented and can live and work in the US. Why get angry at the poor people and not the US govt for not cracking down on those big companies that hire undocumented workers and the US govt for not having better control over the borders?

I know that you and your wife went through a rough time and have been seperated for over a year but are now re-united. I have been away from my wife for about 11 months now but eventually we will be together. I will never be angry at some poor person who is/was just looking for a better life.

There are many things about this that bother me also, I understand that people want a better life who in the world doesn’t and that is all relative to what you my think that is. Some people in the US think if you don’t have 2 cars or a Cell phone that life is bad. We also have people here that are homeless that need help.
It all sounds so crazy to me and we would all love to be sympathetic to all people but big business could care less. It is no different than when they brought salves from Africa to work in the south again MONEY and BUSINESS lets call it the way it is and what ever benefits business they will push for. And why because big business think they deserve a better life to.
I agree that the illegal aliens here working want a better life and work very hard and maybe get paid less the US citizens do again business makes more. But did you ever think other than the SS that I have been paying into my whole life and the problems we might have in the future that if the let 15 million illegal aliens automatically have citizenship can now be a public charge. I have to file paper work that my loved one will not become a public charge to the US and for how long, till she becomes a US citizen with can take longer than 5 years doing it the right way!!!
Did you ever think that those very very hard working people that get very low wages illegally once become citizens can now get aid with might be better than the low hard working wages that they are getting know ( and so called become Americanized )
And lay around like so many people in America do now?????

Sorry but I have to end it here because the more I go on the more I think and the more I think the more I get mad so good luck to all you applicants doing thinks the right way and god bless.
BTW all of you I am sure that are worried about people starving people in other countries are sending money oversea to them right?

i don't mean to flame on anyone for giving their point of view, we are all intitled to our opinions. but, WHAT?
the US wasn't a nation until the war of independence. remember the constitution, declaration of independence things,etc.
and native americans didn't just appear in the americas. i'm pretty sure that their ansestory is traced back to mongolia & they migrated across the barring straight. so by the logic above we should as the squirrels & trees how they feel about illegal immigration. no illegal immigration is wrong and those that have done it are criminals. regardless of their reasons for doing it, they have broken the law of the nation not an unsettled territory

It's hard to say, bowflex. I feel for your wife's family, but what seems to drive my sympathy is not that 'they did it legally' but that it's so damn hard to get political asylum. Increasing scrutiny on immigrants I fear only leads to more denials in asylum cases.

I think the time does matter. If we had the resources to deport people as soon as they crossed the border, I would say, 'deport!' It would be swift, certain, and just a few weeks out of their lives. But we don't, and deporting an otherwise honest hard-working person after twenty years doesn't seem just. (It doesn't seem just to deport your wife's family either, but deporting illegals won't make the asylum cases easier.) I don't think that deporting 11 million people is a realistic option.

Plus, it's hard to say what would happen if Yugoslavia had bordered the U.S. I can imagine that people might have been desperate enough to skip the border, too.

Blaming the system for someone breaking it doesn't make any sense to me. The folks who are entering illegally ALL know that it's against the law, no one thinks that it isn't. I'm angry at the people who purposely break the law but then justify it by saying they need a better life for their family. The government definitely needs to stiffen the penalties for the companies, but they also need to stiffen the penalties for the undocumented and illegal immigrants. I'd think something like liquidating all of the person's assets and any equities they've accrued by working in America illegally would start teaching people lessons. If they work their butts off but broke into the country, take everything from them and send them back. I realize this sounds insanely harsh, but this could show them that it is indeed breaking the law and our society doesn't take kindly to this.

I'm all for bettering one's life, but it must be done legally. Saying that because the American immigration system doesn't come down hard enough on criminals, so they should be allowed to break the law until it's fixed isn't logical.




My wife's family could've EASILY fled the state of Michigan and gone into hiding when Homeland Security was finalizing the deportation proceedings, but they didn't, so I can say for fact they wouldn't have snuck into the country. They were already in the States, had a home they could've sold for enough money to start over somewhere new, and all have skills that would make them very employable, but they were moral people and did the right thing.

to answer your topic title in the most simplistic of ways :




not nearly as much as it seems to bother you.

I'm with you on that.

Where are you going to get the money to beggar 11 million people and deport them? It's not as though we're going to suspend due process and just run a truck around picking up everyone who looks Hispanic or suitably brown (plenty of illegal immigrants aren't Hispanic, yet oddly none of the rhetoric seems to worry about them.) As I'm sure you know from your wife's circumstances, people have a right to a hearing, they have a right to appeal the hearing, if they lose that, then there's a deportation order and until that time, we can't just throw people in jail. If you're advocating no due process, then the miscarriage of justice is likely to be far, far worse.

If we started deportation hearings for everyone tomorrow, it would be years upon years before the appeals wound their ways through the system.

The Cherokee Removal happened in 1838 Mike...well after the war of independence, however, the Cherokee, as well as other Native American tribes were here LONG before the white man touched foot on the shores of this country so in some ways the white man came here and took what wasn't theirs to begin with. As to the technical term "illegal"...that's subjective. No, the Native Americans didn't "just" appear as you put it... yes, they did migrate here...but long before the first white man ever made an appearance. So you think it was right for the white man to take away the lands from my ancestors, and the ancestors of other Native Americans and force them to live on reservations? All I was doing was merely responding to Allie's comment. IMHO your comment about asking squirrels and trees was bit on the ridiculous side...kinda like comparing apples with oranges.

*shakes head*


Now, back to the topic.

I'd think something like liquidating all of the person's assets and any equities they've accrued by working in America illegally would start teaching people lessons.

Hum what a new idea you mean like they do now to US citizens that are criminals take and seize their stuff? What’s good for one should be good for all.
My dad is a cop in Phila and did you know that they can’t even ask anyone that they think is an illegal alien because of there rights. Wow I thought we had rights because we were citizens?

Hum its getting crazy out there know wonder I liked that movie V so much. Watch it its great.

I don't think the point of the movie V was to be on the side of the fascist government.

i've said it before.... they have options. period. there's no reason why they couldn't file ... anything. also like i've said, you do not need a legal status to file some of these applications. if nothing else, file for Humanitarian and Compassionate. of course i feel for them and their stories, but they did not do everything they could to avoid deportation and dealing with homeland security. in fact, they did nothing. fine, do whatever to come in illegally, but then file SOMETHING. ensure your children's future as secure, ensure that their schooling isn't for nothing. just TRY. does the law always make sense and provide justice? of course not, but that applies to laws for other matters as well. compared to their countries which they came from that are "so awful" the US's laws aren't so mean and hateful.

furthermore...they had objections to the immigration bill, lol. it didn't make things easy enough for them. they simply want amnesty. they won't settle for anything else. the government was trying to throw them a bone, and they even bitched then.

Thank you...


you said it all

NO but I think its time for a third party!!!!!

People who entered the country illegally have absolutely NO right to due process, as they are not a citizen or a recognized member of our society. They should not be jailed or anything like that, they should be sent home, and the payment for these flights or transportation would be received by liquidating absolutely all of their assets that they accrued while being in the country illegally.

I am not going against just Mexicans or Hispanics at all. If someone illegally immigrated from Canada to the United States, my stance would be the exact same for them. My wife's folks had the right to appeals and hearings because they were legally involved with the process, and all of the work they did submitting forms and money entitles them to those rights.

The bottom line should be: "Did you enter the country illegally?" and if the answer is yes, you transport them immediately, then after they're out of the country, you go to their home, sell everything in it, sell the home, and recoup any such debts that were attained by sending them away.

All people here legally or illegally have right to due process. We could suspend it by classify all illegal aliens and enemy combatants, but that would get icky. And V really has no relation to the current situation.

There is NO due process for someone that illegally entered the country. They broke the law, they shouldn't be here, that should come with a lifetime ban with no appeal and be sent away illegally. By anyone who's entered the country with a Visa or such, there is PLENTY of documentation to prove that you entered legally. If someone can't produce this proof or flat out admits to entering illegally, they are entitled to leave, nothing more.

Two things, what would the recourse be for someone wrongfully accused of entering illegally if they go straight to deportation? It could be easily abused, I say you entered illegally, off with you.

And how many people here illeagally acutally have sizable assets? And how do you get them with a job that makes not much more than minimum wage?