karen, you took that way personally. i did not mean to offend you, or anyone else. i was just stating facts. when the "white man" came here it was not a country, it was an unsettled territory. not a country w/ a gov't, social services, an economy etc.(a nation). sorry the "white man" took land from native american tribes. i believe they have been appoligized to & compensated. as well as benifited in many other ways from the "white mans" country they built here. we are talking about illegal immigration into a nation. not taking land from native tribes. noone said it was right for the "white man". to do what they did, but everyone here has benifited.

The point of due process is for the goverment to prove in a court of law that you actually broke a law. Otherwise whats to stop me from calling you an illegal immigrant and getting you deproted when your not actually that? We have to go through due process or there is no recourse for those wrongfully accused.

not in this area. there was a story about a guy who was waiting for his paperwork, took longer than usual, but he had papers, then he got pulled over by the police for speeding, they suspected he didnt have papers and he didnt have his visa on him, they deported him 2 days before his wedding.

there are so many stories of them not caring about paperwork. they didn't ask me. then they took my passport when they invaded my home, then they asked for it knowing full well they took it. it was a mess. but did i just run away or hide? no. i still did the right thing.

and my country of birth ISN"T EVEN A COUNTRY ANYMORE. it is now serbia, who by the way said since i'm not serbian they will not ACCEPT me "back" and denied us entry. but the US didn't care.

regardless of my LEGAL story, i do feel for them. i simply hate excuses. they had options. and not only before they came, but once they were here illegally.

took me a few more years, but here i am a permanent resident. you have to fight, you have to try, keep trying. don't hide, don't run. i go to bed at night knowing i did the right thing and now i have nothing to worry about as far as immigration works. i know i never have to hide in a church. and one day my husband and i are going to have kids, but we would never have had one before i knew i finally had things in order. that would've been selfish.

It would be as easy to prove as show me your SS #, valid entry papers, and a visa/any other applicable documentation that's needed for entry. My wife has been advised many times that she needs to carry her Visa on her at all times, and she does, and when we're not out she knows exactly where it is. In the unlikely event that the documents are lost, it will be the person's immediate responsibility to file for new paperwork, in which they would be issued a receipt that their documents are indeed in the works, and that would solve that problem. Proving someone entered illegally is not as hard as proving someone is a terrorist or has broken another law. "Show me your documents" and if you have nothing, good bye.

Plane tickets and such are not that expensive, and the people will be living somewhere. For every illegal immigrant obviously all the money might not be recouped, but I'm willing to bet after all are deported it will be extremely close to breaking even.

Also every law can be easily abused, but that is why we have a system of checks and balances to try to hold those accountable who do such things.

THEY STILL WOULD HAVE HAD OPTIONS.

YOU DO NOT NEED A LEGAL STATUS TO FILE FOR ALL APPLICATIONS.

fine, come here illegally cause of poor conditions. but then FILE. SOMETHING. refugee, asylum. humanitarian and compassionate. just to name a few.

The due process involves being showed documentation that the person is here legally, and anyone who has come across on this site certainly has an abundance of that. Homeland Security is already full of abusers of power, and this needs to be looked into and those who did it should pay, but there is no reason that someone is entitled to any due process when they're 100% guilty of coming illegally.

And showing that is part of due process. You want to get rid of that which means getting rid of any way of proving that you are here legally.

What would you say to a poor inner-city person who has a poor family and are not doing well and has not much food, clothing, medical or shelter and is a US citizen. So now they go and break the law and sell drugs to help there family and get arrested? I know you would say lets give them asylum right or would you say they had other ways of doing things right and legal????

No I want to get rid of them having the right to appeal or appear in front of a court. You show it to a licensed, approved, and trained official that comes to you with evidence that you're not. There is no reason to spend the money on courts and judges and fees when they have nothing and didn't respect the system enough to warrant being a part of it.

bowflex ,
i'm w/ you 100% on everything you've said.
i can't believe people on this site going thru the immigration process legally, don't second all of your opinions.

I'm actually surprised as well

It's been pointed out many times in this thread, but for some people like me, having done it the legal way doesn't make me feel special, superior, or proud. I don't see why there should be a correlation between having gone through the legal immigration process and one's stance on illegal immigration.

Also keep in mind when I started this thread, it was about families who were KNOWINGLY illegal immigrants, and admitted to it, fleeing to churches for sanctuary when they were to be deported. I know the issue goes much much deeper, but in the cases where the folks are marching and have admitted to coming in illegally, they should be given no rights or opportunities. They should have gone to those marches, gathered up everyone, and sent them back to their countries. There are so many people in this country locked up for petty drug crimes and such, yet you don't see the public outcry saying that it isn't logical to lock them all up.

There is nothing that's going to "promote" illegal immigration more than a government that isn't willing to actually punish those who do it.

let's also not forget illegal immigrants are not only from mexico. you will be excusing people of many different races and beliefs...good people and people wishing harm. you are making things easy for ANYONE to come into the country. not all illegal immigrantion is from poor countries. mexicans can just come on over the border, but everyone else... they have money for plane tickets or however they chose to arrive. plus once you're here, from mexico or not, you need to have SOME money or you'd just go from being poor there to being poor here. go to your nearest immigration center, seek asylum, seek refugee, seek protection.

if your only issue with your country was that you were poor, how do you plan on making money here if you come empty handed with no money for a roof over your head, food, water, traveling to work, etc? they have SOME money. and furthermore, there are organizations that are there to help. go to someone. they can help you with paperwork, housing, etc. start a NEW life. not the same one over again.

Maybe if you went through a much longer process and had to actually fight to get it rather than waiting under a year, you'd understand where some of us are coming from. My wife and I went through circumstances in our case that hardly anyone else here had, and that's including a Consul that didn't give us the time of day, then lied, then purposely took extra time to admit to a mistake, and then we even had to wait longer than most just to mail the Visa after it was approved.

My wife's family did absolutely everything correctly for 15 years and were still denied, and then you have someone feeling they're above the law or put themselves in front of others who have been waiting patiently to do it the right way. It is a priviledge to enter this or any country, and those who enter illegally make it seem like it's their right, which it clearly is not.

I doubt it. I think it's a personality/political stance thing.

jenn, its not about being special, superior, or proud. its about you doing it properly & legally. and other knowingly brakeing the law & getting a pass. BTW you are special & should be proud of yourself!!

Typically when someone fights so hard for something, their views change. Fighting an immigration war, not even a battle, for 15 years would change a lot of opinions. Her parents did more for the United States and know more than most Americans do and it still wasn't good enough, yet someone sneaks over and then figures it's now their right to become a citizenship is complete crap.

when the bill came out, the illegal immigrants were not even happy with THAT. they still wanted things easier and faster.

they want amnesty.

what about the people with mental illness who break the law? they still get punished. really anyone can make excuses for their behavior and doings. these people know they are doing something wrong. heck people make excuses they are mental just to get out of situations. there are excuses for EVERYTHING nowadays. let's stop. you give amnesty to them...other groups will follow.

Here is some food for thought. This was written by a retired US Border Patrolman. It really made me stop and think. I actually took the time to go research some of his points and he is dead on.

Dear Senator Frist:

There is a huge amount of propaganda and myths circulating about illegal aliens, particularly illegal Mexican, Salvadorian, Guatemalan and Honduran aliens.

1. Illegal aliens generally do NOT want U.S. citizenship. Americans are very vain thinking that everybody in the world wants to be a U.S. citizen. Mexicans, and other nationalities want to remain citizens of their home countries while obtaining the benefits offered by the United States such as employment, medical care, in-state tuition, government subsidized housing and free education for their offspring. Their main attraction is employment and their loyalty usually remains at home. They want benefits earned and subsidized by middle class Americans. What illegal aliens want are benefits of American residence without paying the price.

2. There are no jobs that Americans won't do. Illegal aliens are doing jobs that Americans can't take and still support their families. Illegal aliens take low wage jobs, live dozens in a single residence home, share expenses and send money to their home country. There are no jobs that Americans won't do for a decent wage.

3. Every person who illegally entered this nation left a home. They are NOT homeless and they are NOT Americans. Some left jobs in their home countries. They come to send money to their real home as evidenced by the more than 20 billion dollars sent out of the country each year by illegal aliens. These illegal aliens knowingly and willfully entered this nation in violation of the law and therefore assumed the risk of detection and deportation. Those who brought their alien children assumed the responsibility and risk on behalf of their children.

4. Illegal aliens are NOT critical to the economy. Illegal aliens constitute less than 5% of the workforce. However, they reduce wages and benefits for lawful U.S. residents.

5. This is NOT an immigrant nation. There are 280 million native born Americans. While it is true that this nation was settled and founded by immigrants (legal immigrants), it is also true that there is not a nation on this planet that was not settled by immigrants at one time or another.

6. The United States is welcoming to legal immigrants. Illegal aliens are not immigrants by definition. The U.S. accepts more lawful immigrants every year than the rest of the world combined.

7. There is no such thing as the "Hispanic vote". Hispanics are white, brown, black and every shade in between. Hispanics are Republicans, Democrats, Anarchists, Communists, Marxists and Independents. The so-called "Hispanic vote" is a myth. Pandering to illegal aliens to get the Hispanic vote is a dead end.

8. Mexico is NOT a friend of the United States. Since 1848 Mexicans have resented the United States. During World War I Mexico allowed German Spies to operate freely in Mexico to spy on the U.S. During World War II Mexico allowed the Axis powers to spy on the U.S. from Mexico. During the Cold War Mexico allowed spies hostile to the U.S. to operate freely. The attack on the Twin Towers in 2001 was cheered and applauded all across Mexico. Today Mexican school children are taught that the U.S. stole California, Arizona, new Mexico and Texas. If you don't believe it, check out some Mexican textbooks written for their schoolchildren.

9. Although some illegal aliens enter this country for a better life, there are 6 billion people on this planet. At least 1 billion of those live on less than one dollar a day. If wanting a better life is a valid excuse to break the law and sneak into America, then let's allow those one billion to come to America and we'll turn the USA into a Third World nation overnight. Besides, there are 280 million native born Americans who want a better life. I'll bet Bill Gates and Donald Trump want a better life. When will the USA lifeboat be full? Since when is wanting a better life a good reason to trash another nation?

10. There is a labor shortage in this country. This is a lie. There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of American housewives, senior citizens, students, unemployed and underemployed who would gladly take jobs at a decent wage.

11. It is racist to want secure borders. What is racist about wanting secure borders and a secure America? What is racist about not wanting people to sneak into America and steal benefits we have set aside for legal aliens, senior citizens, children and other legal residents? What is it about race that entitles people to violate our laws, steal identities, and take the American Dream without paying the price?

For about four decades American politicians have refused to secure our borders and look after the welfare of middle class Americans. These politicians have been of both parties. A huge debt to American society has resulted. This debt will be satisfied and the interest will be high. There have already been riots in the streets by illegal aliens and their supporters. There will be more. You, as a politician, have a choice to offend the illegal aliens who have stolen into this country and demanded the rights afforded to U.S. citizens or to offend those of us who are stakeholders in this country. The interest will be steep either way. There will be civil unrest. There will be a reckoning. Do you have the courage to do what is right for America? Or, will you bow to the wants and needs of those who don't even have the right to remain here?

There will be a reckoning. It will come in November of this year, again in 2008 and yet again in 2010.

We will not allow America to be stolen by third world agitators and thieves.

David J. Stoddard

U.S. Border Patrol (RET)

Hereford, Arizona


He served this country first in the Army for 30 years and then 27 years as a border patrolman.

hey well if thats the case - my K1 did take more than a year and we had the SAME CO that you did in Montreal, and stateside we are waiting even longer to complete AOS. Still does not make me feel the way you do. This is a political item, and a highly emotional one at that.

Jenn - I agree with you 100%. Not everyone going the "legal" route feels this way.

Definitely agreed. While there may be some resentment towards those that choose to skip across the border, I don't find their tactics being punished by the US government, which is the bigger issue here. I certainly don't agree with the leniency given to the illegal immigrants in the US. I certainly don't agree that the illegal immigrants should feel that they can bypass the law simply because they're looking for a better life in the States, whatever their various reasons are.

I think what Udella&Wiz put up certainly makes a strong point. There are a lot of myths in place about the state of illegal immigrants and certainly that does put a bias on things. A well-written book I read about the US/Mexico border, the Devil's Highway, pointed out that not every single illegal immigrant was looking to become a citizen, or even live there, they just wanted to make some money to bring home to their families, and they were willing to put their lives at stake in order to do that.

If we're going to argue about illegals who cross the border without intent of staying permanently, I do believe that the US government should take a closer look at perhaps granting those a temporary work permit so that they have at least some legal paperwork for employment. Bowflex has made a really good point that the US government is basically promoting illegal immigration if they won't do anything about it. There are various job sectors where the companies shrug and go, "Let's employ these illegals under the table and exploit them because they want to make more money here than they can back home." And the US government, from a political standpoint, won't recognize the issue and won't attempt to regulate that kind of behavior.

Again, it doesn't make it right for people to think that they can bypass the laws and procedures in place. But there are always some extreme cases where some who are fleeing their home country to seek political asylum or refugee status are absolutely desperate and will do anything in order to secure their freedom. And while from a paper and budget standpoint we can say that they've broken the law and we should deport them, what about from a moral standpoint? There was a news story about a woman and her children who were living in the Moscow airport for ten months while waiting for the go-ahead from the Canadian government to be granted legal refugee status. They got to move to Canada, but in a way it was really bittersweet.

and what exactly DO you feel? just that they should stay? do some research, look over some laws, read people's stories, read the FACTS. i haven't heard one good argument for illegal immigration in this thread, just that they FEEL they should be able to stay and get citizenship. there are sob stories ALL over the world. as bowflex's wife, which people seem to mention a few times, i have gone through it a long time. i did not give up just because i had the bad luck of getting a bad apple from the government branches. at NO point have i EVER been illegal, unlawful, or undocumented. we came to the US 1991 with one suitcase for the entire family of four. i have sob stories you wouldn't believe. would it have been easier for me to just sneak over? of course! and if there were NO other options, and illegal immigration was THE last resort...THERE ARE APPLICATIONS THAT DO NOT REQUIRE A LEGAL STATUS. give me one good reason for not filing anything at all? there are organizations to help new immigrants with paperwork, housing, all sorts of things. THEY SIMPLY DO NOT SEEK THEM

say they do give the illegal immigrants already in the US amnesty. what about the people who are going to the come in the future? what about them? the way the bill was written they would have to go back to their country first and file for the visa. what about the new illegal immigrants if all this passes? you think they're going to go and say hey i just came over illegally, can i go back now and apply for the visa? why not just apply while you are already in the country?

none of it makes sense. what happens to them? if they didn't file for a visa to begin with, why would people expect them to come illegally, say hey i'm illegal, then have to go back just to apply for the new visa?

mrsserendipity, we're beating a dead horse. noone is going to change anyones minds in here. its obvious some people don't understand the difference between a "politcal view point" & the law. i wonder how many people with the "amnesty for all" stance on this issue, actually live in a place affected by illegal immigrants. i live in the south, i see it first hand not on a news show. i think if some of these peoples lives were affected by the illegal population their "political point of view" or sence of right & wrong would be different.

I have done my research and I have my facts straight, thanks, and just so you know exactly where I stand (since you asked), I belong to a political action group who is lobbying for family unification. I am pro-family, but that does NOT mean I am anti-illegal, and far from it.

nice how a mod-who should remain neutral- is trying to PO bowflex as well

I think it's wrong to assume that people who do not feel the same way that you do about things are somehow naive or have not been unaffected to the degree that you have. And thank you very much, but I "understand the difference between a "politcal view point" & the law". Did it ever occur to you that some people might not agree with our existing laws? Maybe it makes you feel better to think that the only explanation for people not being so angry and resentful towards illegal immigrants is that they don't understand the issue?

In the same way that you don't understand my lack of outrage, I don't quite understand your level of outrage.

true. i just don't see what they're trying to say. they don't seem to even have knowledge of what the immigration bill terms were. like i just mentioned above... they b*tched when they heard they had to go back to apply for the visa. they're not looking to just get citizenship, they want it all to be fast and easy.

and what about the people to come after this bill if it passes. are they aware what happens then? you think people will come illegally say hi here i am, then go back to their countries like the bill suggested and apply? of course not! who would come here just to have to go back? no one thinks about that. none of it will work. the illegal immigrants will not accept anything but amnesty. they were thrown a bone and they just bitched.

Wow this is great in my book it is right on the money thank you for the post.

BTW I still havnt seen any one respond to:

What would you say to a poor inner-city person who has a poor family and are not doing well and has not much food, clothing, medical or shelter and is a US citizen. So now they go and break the law and sell drugs to help there family and get arrested?

1.) Would say lets give them asylum?
Or
2.) Would you say they had other ways of doing things right and legal?

Pick? 1 or 2

*rolls her eyes*

I'm still more ticked off at the companies that break laws every day by employing illegals, and the US government who on a continual basis can't get their thumbs out of their collective arses to come to a decent solution to the whole problem, than I am at people who are taking advantage of the very wide loopholes.

BTW, I live in the same state as you, and I am curious how your life is personally affected by illegal immigrants. I am serious about this request.

what law is it that you do not agree with? that the US is a COUNTRY and should not have their borders open to anyone who just wants to fly or walk in? how safe would you feel if anyone and everyone would just be allowed to come and go into the US as they please? you don't agree that a country should protect it's borders? the US is indeed a country. countries have borders. countries have laws. you do not like the law, move to a different country. what are you trying to say? what would you like the law to say?

Seems you're the one who has a problem with the status quo. Maybe you should move. (ETA: this is sarcasm because I think the idea of telling someone that if they don't like such and such about America they should move is completely asinine)

And yes, I am for a more liberal overall immigration policy. Sorry that makes you so angry.

no one has responded to 99% of my posts either. they feel a certain way but cannot see the whole picture, cannot go beyond the issue to the bigger picture and the problems that are being just swept under the rug. the US should not change a law about ILLEGAL immigration. people are already abusing the system. they change the definition of ILLEGAL in this situation, they will have groups from all walks of life marching and trying to change the definition. in fact, it seems like they don't like that word at all and just let everyone assume the LEGAL status. they do not see how that WIL affect the safety and security of the country.

you do not make me angry. i thought we were all just having a discussion?

who's status quo? has the bill passed? that doesn't make any sense. you're the one who's not happy with how things are.

what exactly is it those of you who are pro-illegal-immigration want the law TO say?

what about those who come in the US after the bill if it's passed? they will just show up illegal say hi i'm illegal, then go back to their country and apply? hah

My point is that illegal immigration does not get me all riled up. The status quo is the current state of affairs, i.e. the presence of 12 million illegal immigrants. Presumably, you're not ok with that.

As for making you angry, sorry I jumped to conclusions. But as soon as someone tells me to get out of my country, I assume that I have hit a nerve.

my problem is with the immigration bill. i feel for some of these people. i do not however think they should be given amnesty. there will ALWAYS be illegal immigration, that is not my problem. my problem is how the US wants to deal with them.

the bill is ridiculous. can we agree with that? it doesn't make any sense. i realize they're trying to change some parts, but they want the illegal immigrants to first go back to their countries and apply. they will never do that.

i wasn't literally telling you to leave.

quick edit: i think if their main goal is to become citizens, they should've been happy with the bill, but instead they bitched, it wasn't easy and fast enough.

then what happens to the people who come after the bill if it passes?

I am not sure if I am right but it seems that you where not born a American citizen but now live in the US and have done all the proper things to be here right?
And if this is the case I applaud you for your view point coming from someone not born here. Americans are made up of all people from all over the world and that’s what helps make this the country it now is. But what I feel is even greater is that coming here like you did the right way and saying it like it is. Is the real definition of being American. Not all the paper work that says what one my be.

other people have said the same thing here in the VJ forums before, and they meant it. 'Tis a natural reaction to take it at face value.

I am not sure if I am right but it seems that you where not born a American citizen but now live in the US and have done all the proper things to be here right?
And if this is the case I applaud you for your view point coming from someone not born here. Americans are made up of all people from all over the world and that’s what helps make this the country it now is. But what I feel is even greater is that coming here like you did the right way and saying it like it is. Is the real definition of being American. Not all the paper work that says what one my be.
[/quote]

i was born in former yugoslavia. when clinton was bombing the area, we had our aunt sponsor us and we came to the US legally on a visa. then we filed timely papers for others files. then after 9/11, they started screwing with us. i was still under my parent's application. then our lawyer decided to end his practice, we didn't receive something we were supposed to, we were asked to leave. we left right away before having to be deported and went legally into canada. i had already been with my now-husband for years, so we continued our relationship, we were also just across the bridge from each other. we waited a few more years, got married. we decided for me to come to the US. i now have permanent residence. it was all worth it.

i live on the south side of OKC cassie. that should answer your request. if not, drive thru sometime-nuthin but wire wheels, big belt buckles, mariachi's & dope peddlers on every corner. very few are here legally. & not a construction job in site unless you're illegal "coz they don't have to pay you a decent wage, 2 illegals will do it cheaper"

*roll my eyes now*

i wouldn't literally tell someone to leave. who the hellll am i to do that? haha. i get confused when they say how great of a country this is, but then they don't like how it functions. it is by far far from perfect, but compared to other countries, it is a great place.

I rolled my eyes at the rhetoric of your first post, not at facts to be investigated. I am trying to understand how illegal immigration has affected you personally -- ie. do you work in construction and have a hard time finding employment because the jobs are all taken? And how does "but wire wheels, big belt buckles, mariachi's & dope peddlers on every corner" affect you? Just trying to understand.

In my post I was mentioning our case but I stated that it wasn't so much based on us, but as far as the AOS goes, I'm sorry but you should've filed a CR then

Your case is a breeze compared to someone that is not sponsored by a signifincant other, as war ours relatively speaking. I'm telling you to try and go through it as my wife's parents did. Left a country that doesn't speak English (even though they're both very smart and do speak several languages), take your daughters to a brand new country, and go through the process for 15 years, getting yanked around constantly, dealing with horrible representatives of the United States, and then talk to me. You're going through a relative cake-walk compared to them, as if we went deeply into it they pretty much lived in a 15 year hell of not knowing what was going on and being pulled around like puppets by the government whenever the government felt it was fit.

If they had to go through such travesties to get into the States, I will not accept that because someone else feels they need a better life they can bypass the entire system while others are struggling to do it the right way. There is no doubt there needs to be reform and change, but completely breaking the law is not one way to do it at all.

Curious, Mike...why did you bold "white man"? The subject of Native Americans was brought up by someone else...I simply expressed an opinion. You can't seem to let this go for some reason so since you can't seem to let go, I'll play along with you. I can assure you that some apology has been extended and the benefits (as you seem to call them) are miniscule. Those that choose to live off the reservations do not benefit from the existence offered to them through the government...their attempt at offering "compensation". Do you call living on a reservation a benefit? I'm not so sure I do. However, you won't hear many Native Americans in the news griping about things aren't fair to them...not like you hear the current illegals complaining and protesting here in the States today.

BTW...I am not offended in any way...as I have learned long ago not to let things of this nature upset me. I shall, of course, express an opinion. I have no issue with whether or not you or anyone else feels the same. Now, can you let this go?

i use to work contruction, before i went back & got my degree. the belt buckles...etc. was a little more plesant than saying. drugs, hookers, gangs, drive bys, car jacking & rape(i was trying to put a pic in your head w/o being so litteral). all of which has sky rocketed in the last 5 years. property value is tanking. its pathetic..check out news9 website click on crimetracker up top (in red) type in a south side zip. you will be amazed.

I can of course respect everyone's different view point on this, it's just that most folks on this board wait no longer than a year, and definitely no longer than 2 to complete the process of getting to the States. I can only imagine if I was one of those folks that had to fight tooth and nail to get into a country, and then to finally get work authorization and everything only to see someone that strolled across the border one night across the work site from me.

I also question why you put legal in quotation marks. No matter how you feel about the subject, anyone who has a visa did it the legal way, and anyone who just snuck across is illegal by the very definition.

Now I understand your post more and more. I just happen to agree with you and didn’t even go thought the hardship you did. If I did I don’t even think I could be as mellow on here as you have been this topic. I see know that I am just a little spoiled having been born in the US but that was out of my control. I do feel that most people from other countries love their country and do not want to leave like my Ukrainian fiancée but will for love not just opportunity. I do not think its fare that people want to come and work take the money or send it back to their country and don’t want nothing but the US tax payers to pay for this because they think this is the land of plenty and we owe them something. We already have plenty of US citizens in this country that think the US owes them something because we brought them here in the past as they collect my money for welfare. Yeah I know its not everybody but that’s my point give them an inch to do some good and they want it all.