You are kidding right? If you lived in a area like that your saying you would not be affected? Do you have childrean I do 3 and I cant see what he is saying with both eyes shut.

yes the subject of native americans was brought up by someone else. but the subject of the white man taking land was brought up by you. and it was brought up very politely either. just pointing it out to you. & benefits lets try very little taxes on tribal gaming for starters, free medical as well. like i said i wasn't trying to offend anyone & i'm truely sorry if i did. but, don't point a finger if you don't want it pointed back.

no hard feelings i hope

Is it me or can u edit your post here? If there is I cant find it.

Nope, I am not kidding, I truly am trying to understand, as I know some illegal immigrants and "but wire wheels, big belt buckles, mariachi's & dope peddlers on every corner" can't be used to describe them or the area they live in. I'm trying to get more specific as opposed to settling for generalizations.




I have the ability to edit, not sure if everyone does. I have a edit button next to the quote button.

I feel like I have to say something here. When the white man came here, these lands were actually several countries. The dictionary (forget which one) defines a country as a state or nation. A country does not need any kind of official govt or social security system to exist. The native americans did have countries and that is actually a well established fact. They also had govt systems, at the local and national level. The white man did come over here and took those lands away. Were this done today it would be considered illegal. I suppose that there were no police here at the time or any form of law enforcement means it wasn't illegal immigration (at the time) but it certainly wasn't legal.

The compensation offered to the native americans is a joke. They were given a bit of land to live off of. The native americans lived off great expanses of lands, so to put them on such small pieces of land is more like putting them in jail. Sure they don't pay taxes (if they live on reservations) but is that really a big compensation? Native americans were not just removed off their land but their game has been overhunted and their fish have been overfished. Their trees have been clear cut and their way of life pretty much lost forever. Their spirituality is nearly all gone as well thanks to "missionaries" converting them to their way.

I think native americans have had it pretty crappy back then. But today you don't hear many complaining.

You can't edit your post after some one else has posted to the same topic. Before that you can and the button is at the bottom along with quote and reply. (not reply and fast reply)

I have special editing powers

[/quote]


I feel like I have to say something here. When the white man came here, these lands were actually several countries. The dictionary (forget which one) defines a country as a state or nation. A country does not need any kind of official govt or social security system to exist. The native americans did have countries and that is actually a well established fact. They also had govt systems, at the local and national level. The white man did come over here and took those lands away. Were this done today it would be considered illegal. I suppose that there were no police here at the time or any form of law enforcement means it wasn't illegal immigration (at the time) but it certainly wasn't legal.

The compensation offered to the native americans is a joke. They were given a bit of land to live off of. The native americans lived off great expanses of lands, so to put them on such small pieces of land is more like putting them in jail. Sure they don't pay taxes (if they live on reservations) but is that really a big compensation? Native americans were not just removed off their land but their game has been overhunted and their fish have been overfished. Their trees have been clear cut and their way of life pretty much lost forever. Their spirituality is nearly all gone as well thanks to "missionaries" converting them to their way.

I think native americans have had it pretty crappy back then. But today you don't hear many complaining.
[/quote]

Firstly I wish to tell Bowflex I in no way am highkjacking your topic. But do feel compelled to answer to this reply and a previous one.

Mike:
You are absolutely correct there was no US in these lands until after the War of Independence. It was land inhabited by what we refer to as First Nations People. Those words first peoples mean just that first in these lands.
I prefer to use the term non-Native as to the words white man
Above you have stated it was not a country. it was an unsettled territory, no social structure, no economy
Unsettled territory only in the eyes of those that came here uninvited, stuck a flag in the ground and claimed these lands for the King of England as uninhabited lands not as unsettled as you state but uninhabited.
As for a Gov. there was a Gov appointed and run by a Tribal Chief with Social Service where everyone helped others in need out. Nobody was left to fend for themselves in hard times. Food was shared as a community need. As for an economy there was much trade beween Tribes

Yes land was taken and that's all a part of history and people live with what has happened in the past as with many other things that have taken place in time. Many live with it but that doesn't mean it should be washed from memory and the books completely
Do you honestly think that being stuck on reserves most with useless lands was compensation to Natives. Benefits what benefits did the non -native bring smallpox, disease and assimilation of people.
We are now an educated peoples we're lawyers, Doctors and many other occupations and now know what is right and what is wrong and through that education we have benfited ourselves. Yes we have Casino's and get medical aid and pay little taxes but I suppose that's the benefit of being first Nation Not a bad deal for the Gov when one considers all they have taken in return. I would say they're still coming out on top after all
When I first replied in this topic It was in no way in reference to taking lands from Natives Everyone who knows history is familiar with how that all went down
My reply was to show people have already come into these lands uninvited a long time ago. Not on the right and wrongs of Native history or treatment

Although Here's a site for you to brush up on history http://www.chaostan.com/why5.html

Wela'lin ( thank you ) Allie

Come on, think this through. Everyone has to have a right to due process or no one does. That's how it works. Think it through. The government doesn't have the resources to track all the illegal immigrants; so how are they going to tell the illegals from the non-illegals? How are they going to tell someone who is appealing a legitimate asylum case and has fuzzy status from someone with a 181-day overstay? Not everyone who is here illegally is illegal in the same way nor subject to the same penalties. It would be easier to talk about this issue if people realized that differences, say, in entry lead to different penalties. That has to wind its way through the courts.

I'm sorry, it's got to be more than 'Did you enter illegally?' and if the person is dumb enough to answer 'yes', out they go.

----
I live in an area with a relatively high Hispanic population. I assume, given the odds, that many of them are here illegally, whether it's an overstayed visa, or sneaking in with a relative. You know what? Neighborhood's not gone to hell. Honestly. No mariachi bands, either!

You might actually want to think this one through a little more. In case you haven't noticed, with supporters in high ranking places, many of the illegal immigrants are proud that they're here and have marched. Over ONE MILLION people across the country marched and wore shirts saying "I'm illegal, so what". They could've EASILY done a sweep of each of those protests and sent them away. That would've been around 1/12 of the entire illegal population in the country in one sweep. Employers that suspect fraudulent documents could forward them on to government agencies for an investigation. Whenever an overstay of a Visa happens, it could easily go across a national network to track any financial movements or such for that person. We already use this technology to track FBI's most wanted and APBs for the police, so it wouldn't be hard.

If someone is found to be illegal through this, they are NOT entitled to a court case or an appeal or such. They did not respect the system enough to enter it legally, so therefore they are not entitled to reap the benefits of that same system.

Once again, refer to the beginning of this post where I stated the article that upset me, which was ADMITTED illegal immigrants seeking asylum and sanctuary in churches. They have absolutely NO rights here and should be sent away, and any church getting involved in that practice should lose its tax exempt status, as they are involving themselves with politics instead of religion.

I'm not even going to address any of the other issues in this post. I already said my opinion on the first page and I don't really care to elaborate. But I wanted to address the technology portion.



Different systems though. The systems in place currently in use for CBP/DHS/USCIS are completely outdated. They only *just* came out with AR-11 online last year and a lot of times, it doesn't do what it's supposed to do (update an alien's change of address). A friend of mine works for DHS as a programmer for border protection. Their systems, as she says, are "a joke".

The ability to create a centralised database exists of course, but the data mapping alone would be a nightmare and would take a long time to actually implement effectively. I don't really see this happening as there are too many agencies that would need to work together to make it work.

Wearing a shirt that says "I'm illegal, so what?" oddly enough isn't grounds for deportation. Just like wearing a shirt that says, "I did it legally" doesn't mean squat, either. Or wearing a shirt that says "we're legally married" means you get your green card. Or wearing a shirt with a Communist star on it means you're committing treason. It's a weird quirk of American law that people can't be arrested during a peaceful assembly for wearing a T-shirt. Take it up with the First Amendment.

You need proof, or else the government is going to be in the business of deporting people without actually determining whether they're illegal beyond whether they went to a rally, or look Hispanic. Due process is how you determine who needs to be deported, and what the penalty should be. "Illegal" covers everyone from the stereotypical EWI (with the fence-jumping mariachi band...?) to the former F-1 who is overstaying his expired student visa by 92 days and the family who was not granted asylum and dodged the deportation order to the spouse whose abuser hasn't filed for a greencard or a guy whose running drugs. The penalties for each of these vary. Some people who are deported are inadmissible. Some aren't. Some incur a ban. Some don't.

You can't just figure that out a priori. That's what due process is for. "If someone is found to be illegal then they're not entitled to a court case.".... look, you can't do that without a court case. That's what the court is for. That's why it's not feasible to just swoop in and arrest one million people (no matter where you'd put them while processing their deportation.) I get that it's Alanis-Morisette-style-ironic as hell that they are RIGHT there and that nothing can be done, but we're a nation of laws.

And the system you're proposing with all the information sharing is giving the government both way too much credit, in that they don't know nearly as much as you think, and way too much power, in that in your zeal to ensure that everyone illegal is punished, you're just tossing over the foundations of the American legal system.

You really want your financial information, as the spouse of a green card applicant, to be divulged to five different government agencies as soon as your sweetie's K-1 expires, just so they can track his or her movements just in case the green card is denied?

All that is well and good about your due possess but I was watching the house of rep’s the other day trying to get more funding for a new bill that would let ICE and local police work together to try and help this problem of illegal aliens. The one thing that they keep talking about was when an illegal alien is convicted of a crime he goes to jail and after he gets out they release him right back into the streets. So if we can’t even deport an illegal alien criminal all this talk seems useless and seems to me that the government turns a blind eye. Forget about the illegal aliens that are here working I would think we would want to send back the one’s we catch that are committing crimes and we don’t even do that. Dos that make sense to you? And who cares about a criminals due process especially if they are an illegal alien that the government knows they are here illegally!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In respectful response to Original Poster: No, it does not "upset me big time".

Don't know about you all; but for me VJ is a safe place where I come for giving and receiving support, not for anything else. My politics are aside and no part of my role as a VJ member. If I have nothing nice to say, I say nothing. But that's me.

Question to moderators: what is this thread still doing on the Canada forum? Shouldn't it be moved?

Peace, L.

Probably had it in the canada section so it remained civil!!

Yeah, I would like to see this in the offtopic forum rather than here.

easier said then done

Aww c'mon Misa, it is about time we got some controversy going in this branch



And my response to the OP:

No illegal immigration does not upset me big time.

Its the truth!! Normally things stay pretty mellow here in the canada forum. No name calling, etc! Put it out in OT, next thing u know people are calling down others for their opinions. Every one has an opinion and is entitled to them, but many seem to take it personal when u disagree. All i know for a fact is that the world best hockey team is the Calgary Flames!! have a good night ya all!!

Well if it's controversy you want, we could always start rating provinces!

East coast versus West coast.

Or how about just the entire country versus Toronto?

Everyone knows Toronto is the center of the universe

Oh now I beg to differ with ya Lance...Nova Scotia is heaven!

Grew up in Sk, lived in Calgary for a bit, as well as Winnipeg and Halifax. Lived in Victoria for nearly 10 yrs, Greenwood NS for 2+,and out of them all, I would say Victoria had the highest quality of life!! Nicest people were found in the prairies and the east coast!! Know a few guys down here fromthe Toronto area, and well,lets just say I have nothing nice to say about them,thus I shall say nothing,lol but i'm sure there are nice people from TO! Hard to blame them, when ur hockey team is out on the golf course first each yr, can be a bit frustrating. Especially when u phone the course to make a reservation,lol

You know I have to disagree with that right? But I will say they are better than the Capitals, lol.

Go Islanders!

Watch it, I know where u live!!! lol

Well I haven't travelled too much over Canada. Just through Ontario, Montreal, St. John's (not St. John), Saskatoon and Vancouver. I grew up in Toronto but I will say that my favourite place in Canada (aside from "home") was St. John's, NFLD. Everyone was awesome and I liked the laid back feel of the city. I also went to the Ship Inn a number of times including during one of their open mic nights and the local talent was awesome! Second best place would probably be Montreal or Vancouver.

And yeah, it's funny that I grew up in Toronto but the usual Toronto people that annoys everyone else (stuck up, thinks the universe revolves around them and the city) annoy me too! Maybe because I grew up in a poorer area and slowly saw it getting gentrified. Funny though, all the people that annoy me in Toronto aren't even originally from there. They moved their for the big city "lifestyle" (if that made sense).

Illegal immigration doesnt really bother me, as long as they pay taxes and dont commit additional crimes. I think these people are trying to get better opportunities which is natural for any human being.

I was being scarcastic I've been asked "How's the center of the universe?" whenever I went to Ottawa and Vancouver for work. The... we live in Toronto's greatest city and we have the best hockey team and we have the best of the best of the best kinda annoys me. The best places I wouldn't mind settling down in Canada... 1. Sudbury 2. Calgary (would have been 1 if it wern't so darn cold in the winters) 3. Victoria

Lance27, Sudbury? Really? I didn't find much to do there. I mean, it is a great place to "settle" later in life but kind of far from everything. Unless that's the point.

Hmm getting lost here.
Thought Tim Horton's was the center of the Universe. ......and it being in Canada.......
No comment on the thread, don't want to stir up anything

Aye, I'm just a tad bit prejudiced as NS is the only place I've seen so far. As long as there's a Tim Horton's I suppose I'd be happy most anywhere in Canada.

The only part of Canada I know well is outside of Edmonton. But on our drive across the country, I learned that
1) Parts of Ontario are astonishingly beautiful.
2) All of Saskatchewan is exceedingly flat.
3) Manitoba has nothing to brag about in that department, either.
4) 100km an hour is too slow of a speed when the terrain is that flat.

not ALL of sakatchewan is flat!! There are area in Southern Sk (around regina) that is hilly. Yes not mountanous, but not flat either!! One doesnt see much of any provinces true beauty when u stick the highways, lol

I'll second that prejudice!

Well I didn't grow up in Toronto, but did grow up about 40 mins from Toronto so I guess that counts. As for me, I think I visited 2 other provinces (other then the bunch when I was like 2 years old and luckly have no recolection of it) and that's about it. Always grew up in the center of everything so never had a desire to see the rest of Canada or really care much about it actually.

Guess I have that "We are canada" mentaility where there's only 3 real places: Toronto, Southern Ontario and then the rest of the country...

My fiancee and I have quite the little rivalry going about this. Seems like we have the Leafs number the last couple of seasons although they may be the only team. oh and one more thing

C - A - P - S , CAPS, CAPS, CAPS!!!!!

PS Wait till next year (10 years and counting)

I also find it interesting that a post on immigration reform got turned into a hockey thread. Oh it's the Canada forum...Never mind.

PS: Tim Horton's has the best coffee and kicks SB's butt. (And the double chocolate donuts aren't bad either)

BTW, I haven't been up for a while, what is the latest bagel porn at the TH drive-thru?

LOL, I "lovingly" refer to Starbucks as Charbucks...that's what it tastes like to me.

*sighs deeply looking at her empty can* I am out of Tims...

America was founded and stregthened by immigrants; with that said, they did it the leagal way! I am thoroughly disappointed with our politicians posturing on this issue. There is no such thing as amnesty for criminals, and sad to say that is what "Illegal Immigrants" are. They are breaking the laws of this country just as much as a murderer or rapist, though not with the same intent obviously. Our gr8 country is being undermined and pushed toward a collapse if we as a people do not address this issue with strength.

I believe everyone should be treated with dignity, whether you are a prisoner at Gitmo or an undocumented alien, or just some plain Joe or Judy on the street. Americans are looking to our politicians for the answers here, when we should be telling them what we want and need as a country.

Tha't my opinion, oughta be yours! :-)

yes, only makes sense we all share ur opinion,lol

The beauty of America...one is entitled to one's own opinion. If we all shared the same opinion, this place would be very boring indeed!

amen.

leave it to the Canadian Regional group to turn an otherwise heated debate into a hockey discussion and Timmy's devotion!

you guys are so funny!

It's a gift.

Now if I could only get my hands on some Tim's....I can't believe Tim's hasn't made its way this far South. Yet.

This post on off topic wouldn't last more than a few pages!! Even on Sharons topic about purchasing a new jeep it got a carried away for a bit!! Nice to keep things simple and friendly in the canada section!!!

I wish more cities would try to enact laws like one here in Texas who makes people prove they are legal before they rent to them. All companies that have policies of not needing social security numbers should be forced to change that policy for security. This will stop a lot of the illegals from getting phones, electricity, and other benefits to live here.
The government doesn't have to round up all the illegals, just some of them and get them scared of being caught.
Also some people are of the impression that these people are all poor, a lot of them pay thousands of dollars to get smuggled into the country, these people are the ones usually caught on a truck. They have the money to stay and live better in their own country, so they are not hurting for money to get here.