Based on the number of Personal Attacks on vj lately, I would like to post my opinion. If you don't want to hear them, don't read this Post!

Everyone of us has our own reasons for doing what we do. Some of those reasons we make public here, most of them we don't. I don't think any of us are here looking for approval for the choices we make. We are here to learn about the immigration process and to share our experiences. In the past two weeks I have seen two people ran off of vj, and to me it just doesn't seem fair. These people were here to share their experiences with us, so that we could all learn from them, not so that we could pass judgment on them!

Julianna with her quips about waiting for her husband and all the things she was doing to make his adjustment to life here. How could any of that been considered bad? The fact that she could still make jokes about it was amazing to me!

And Together4 Ever? How I feel for her! That anyone could attack her when her life had taken such a momentus turn for the worse, I cannot imagine. No one who has not lived through it can imagine her heartbreak. But to make nasty comments about it, when she was so obviously just looking for someone to understand, what does it say about us as a person? What would we do in the same situation? So sad.

And now, there seems to be another round of attacks going on, and her role of mother is being questioned? Why? Who are we to judge a persons qualities of being a mother? Does being a mother qualify anyone to tell anyone else how to be a "good mother"? I know I am not the one to do it. I have been a single mother for 12 years, and everyday I look at my sons and wonder if my choices in life, my decisions, have been the right ones for them. Are they going to be well adjusted adults, or are they going to have emotional issues? Will they respect all women because of what they have witnessed in my life? Or will they just take it all for granted on the assumption that it was the choice I made for myself? Kind of like you made your bed now sleep in it?

The choice I made when I married my husband, was my choice to make. I asked for no ones opinions, and tried not to be disheartened when I was questioned if he could have married me for a green card. I have to say that I don't think that was the reason. But how do we ever really know what is in anothers heart and mind? Life and love don't come with any guarantees, no refunds, and no exchanges.

I guess my whole point in this post, is simply this.

We make our decisions, based on what is right for us. I am sure we all stop and take into consideration, that not only will we be affected by our choices, but those of us closest to us. Based on that, we make the choice to do what is the best in the long term. Maybe there are those that will not agree, maybe there are those that will not understand, but they don't make the choice for us. They do not live our lives for US.

good post

I really didn't mean to get up on a soap box here. I just cannot stand it when people make nasty comments about our "personal" lives, when all they know about any of us is what we post one here. How can you make a judgment about someone you don't KNOW? I am not trying to single any one person out, or to make waves. My mom always taught me that I was entitled to my opinion, but not to be surprised when no one agreed with me, LOL
If you don't agree with someone, just let it go. As long as it does not directly affect MY life, who am I to tell you what is right and what is wrong with the choices YOU make? What is sauce for the goose is NOT always sauce for the gander!

On the flip side...there is a lot of stuff I would never, never, never post on VJ because I know that pretty much anything I say could pop up months later down the road and be used against me. If I think it's too private, too personal, too embarrassing, or something I don't want to be judged on...I do not share it here. That doesn't mean that I think VJers are bad people. For the most part they're lovely. However, there are some cards that I'll always keep close to my chest and issues I won't discuss with complete strangers.

After all, this is a message board; it's very easy to say things to people online that you would never say in real life because online there are few if any consequences for being cruel to someone. My point is this...if you are going to share something personal or private in a public forum, do not be surprised if people make judgements, offer opinions, or say things you don't want to hear. I'm not saying it's right, but I am saying it's inevitable.

i understand what you're saying but i'm afraid you'll be attacked for this post.
i'll phone vegas and get the odds on the life expectancy of this thread

*shrug* I'm sort of expecting to be attacked. The MENA forum is kind of notorious for personal attacks and I do wonder why some people A.) persist in launching personal attacks on people and B.) why the people being attacked persist in posting private, personal stuff here when they know they'll be attacked for it.

The best way around that is to guard your privacy from all misguided snooping, and stalk your new power spot under the cover of darkness.

I don't care about being attacked, really. And I also don't care about the thread being closed, whether it be at my request, or another's.
I realize that there are people out there in the world that will be cruel, or maybe just sound like they are because they aren't sure how to say what they really mean. I am not here to judge anyone, or to justify anything. I just don't understand how you can get so mean and nasty with a person you don't even really KNOW. Yes, I understand that everything we post here is put up for the whole vj world to see, and I realize that there are those who would take a comment and run with it. I have never, nor will I ever, post anything that is "too personal" here, or anywhere else that would be open to the public. There are those that do, and who am I to make fun of them? Or to critisize them? Or to tell them if they are right or wrong? Maybe they just want to know what someone else would do in the same situation? Maybe they are just asking for a new view on it? I don't know. I do know that no one WANTS to be attacked,and it seems that it happens a lot here. Sometimes I think I had to many guy friends and don't think along the same lines as some Catty women do! LOL And, Yes, I know that I am opening myslef up for a LOT of potential nastiness, but ya know what? I am tough enough to take it, AND I don't care! LOL

Well Charles, I don't gamle on a regualr basis, but I'll lay you 5-1 odds that this thread will be closed by someone before the day is over. I said what I felt I had to say, and now, I am done with it. LOL

I think what it boils down to is no one...absolutly no one can know what your life is like...what has happened to shape your decisions. And some people are not able to tolerate something that falls outside of the "norm" for them. I dont post on here much unless I really have something to say because the very first post I made got some harsh comments sent my way about my relationship with my SO. About him having my checkcard there...no one bothered to find out that we had been together going on 3 years and that the reason he had it was when I asked for him to send me stuff(something I do often) I got tired of going to wal mart to moneygram him money..because face it most people in Morocco arent rich and I wasnt going to ask him to pay to buy the stuff and ship it although 9 out of 10 times he does. People just started in with the comments about me supporting him or paying him to be with me basically. I say that to say that it astounded me that these people who I didnt know would make such wild assumptions for people they knew nothing about. But maybe something had happened to shape those thoughts for them...Mohammed said maybe they were afraid that this is what was happening in their relationships. In the end I think people need to stop thinking that because this is a web site where opinion is often sought that this gives them the right to belittle, attack, make fun of or just plain be mean to other people. Common courtesy. Not everyone is the same thank God. And what works for Mrs Smith will not always work for Mrs Brown!

It's a pretty common Internet phenomenon. People assume that if I say "I need help meeting the income requirement and my parents can't help" that they know everything about my finances, my money managing skills, and whether I'm a good daughter and someone will screech "get a job and wait to get married till you're out of school you welfare whore."

People forget that all they see, anywhere, is just a little facet. On the other hand, all their is to respond to is a facet. This is also why, everyone's protests to the contrary, I believe no one is exactly the same in person as online.

But beyond that, look, if you post a little bit of personal information, you have to keep in mind that if people are going to respond to that, they're going to probably fill in the background information they'd need to advise you with information drawn from their own experiences. If you don't want people doing that, you're going to either have to refrain from posting, or you're going to have to give a little more information and be willing to play back and forth a bit. Plopping on a disclaimer "so my husband is abusing me and we need to file the paperwork no one talk about the abuse" ain't it.

i'm betting on within the next 2-3 hours.
and sorry for the confusion, ha, my previous post was to her.

never mind

J

Just to clean up any confusion, I was NOT pointing a finger at any ONE person. I am not vicious in that way. My point was only that sometimes things get taken out of context and it's just not fair for any of us to attack another person when we don't walk in their shoes.
Comments and suggestions can be made without it sounding like a personal attack on someone else's situation.
We are here to gather information to make it easier for us to go thru this process of immigration. To learn how to make the transition easier for our husband or wife. To gain information and to maybe pass on a laugh or two along the way. NOT to rip out someone's throat because their actions don't mirror our own.
We are all individuals, and as such, we all make our own choices, and mine don't have to be the same as yours, and vise versa.

I agree with you 100% Tammy. You are the voice of reason today. It surely isn't fair to be torn apart for posting what is relevant in your life. But not everyone has common sense and some feel that this is their playground and the 'bully' comes out in them. We can only hope that Ewok and the mods continue to ban and suspend the bad apples.

Have a great Friday.

Jackie

Welcome to the group...there are some if you dont agree with their opinions you are automatically wrong. Mena is not a learning tool anymore so why do you think so many have left. I believe there are a couple that just wake up with the intentions of arguing and fighting someone. One speaks of money so now your automtically supporting him, mine has two credit cards with both names on them, am i supporting him when i cant even get him to use them? My case was returned so now im automatically accussed of fraud. So you learn real quick there are two buttons one called report and one called ignore use them and continue on to enjoy those on here that are here to help and be your friends. Also i am sure it will be closed just as soon as these few show up.....

Also i feel those that do come on and ask or tell personal things, maybe they dont have anyone else close and feel that coming to this group that are supposed to be your (sisters) maybe they are the ones you look to for support. Everyone has an opinion but your opinion will not necessarily be the best for the next person we each have to do our own thing. Right or wrong....

funny, i just made this one today

you already used it????

They ought to have a thread open one day out of the month where it could be a free-for-all fight day to let it all out.
You say what you want, etc. No censorship.
Close it at the end of the day and everyone move on.

the pic i made today.....not that i used the report button on you

For what it's worth, I don't agree with nitpicking everything a person posts just for the sake of being a beatch.............BUT.............that being said, if someone has been beaten badly FIVE times and posts it here I think it would be morally wrong for others to ignore it and just go on saying, "here sweetie pie...this is how you can get him out of jail so that he can finish the job". I have lived with too many big fat pink elephants in my life and I'm so over that it's not funny. If I think for one minute that a wonderful woman is in danger of losing her life and her dignity I will speak up.

Again, I'm not into being all nitpicky and crankin' on every tom dick and harry that rubs me the wrong way but sometimes you just can't ignore the obvious and I would not be able to sleep at night if I didn't speak up. Who knows, maybe one little post would be the one that kept that person up and made them change their mind.

It *is* all in the delivery though.

And as far as attacking someone's ability to mother.....I can't even go there 'cause I'll get banned in a ny minute since that's another very hot topic for me that cuts me to the core.

Ppl seriously need to turn their filters on. If you don't want comments, advice and judgements...for the love of God don't post your life story on a forum. You may be just wanting to vent but there are other ways of doing so.... Emails, phone calls, IM, PM. Personally, if I got the daylights beat out of me this would be the last place I'd talk about it.

This discussion is pretty useless IMO. You are trying to change people's behaviors, but think about it, are the people whose behavior you're trying to change going to do a 180 after reading this thread? I'll tell you....no they are not. As Caladan pointed out, this happens all the time on the internet. See my thread earlier this week ( http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...mp;#entry965420 ).

We are never going to agree on what is the proper posting style here at VJ. There are too many different personalities and experiences. Have a problem? Report it. It is the responsibility of the moderator(s) to determine whether something is against TOS or otherwise shall not be tolerated.

you've got no idea what would come outta that, do you? utter mayhem!
a few would welcome that idea very much

The method of creating conflict is provocation which bullies delight in because they know they can always coerce at least one person to respond in a manner which can then be distorted and used to further flame and inflame people. And so it goes on.

The bully then sits back and gains gratification from seeing others engage in destructive behaviour towards each other. This is known as trolling - see: Trolling The Web for more information about their tactics.

Most serial bullies are also serial attention-seekers. More than anything else they want attention. It doesn't matter what type of attention they get, positive or negative, as long as they can provoke someone into paying them attention.

It's like a 2-year-old child throwing a tantrum to get attention from a parent. The best way to treat bullies is to refuse to respond and to refuse to engage them - which they really hate.

In other words, do not reply to their postings, and on forums carry on posting without reference to their postings as if they didn't exist. In other words, treat nobodies as nobodies.

Source: http://www.urban75.org/info/bullying.html

As I said numerous times, I am not trying to point a finger at anyone. I am simply stating my opinion based on what I have seen with my own eyes.
I truly felt bad for Together4Ever. How much did it cost her to post about her situation on vj? Emotionally, I mean? Can any of us know how hard it was to tell complete strangers of her plight? I don't think she was looking for our approval, or wanting to get our opinions. I think she was merely telling us," Hey, this is what happened to me, these are signs to look out for". Take it from me, I have been there as the victim of abuse. There are no words to make it okay, to make it un-happen. Being verbally attacked does not help any. By the time you can finally talk about it, admit to yourself that it Really is happening, the damage is already done. Does anyone know what being the victim of domestic violence does to a persons self-confidence? I do. It took me years of healing before I could finally say to myself, "This happened to me, but it was not my fault, I am deserving of better."
And what about the nastiness that Julianna had to face before she closed her thread and left vj? What was so wrong about the things she posted? Was it wrong of her to be posting about her preperations for her husbands arrival? Oh, no. It was the comment about the Jordanian house sitter that got on someones nerves! I thought it was hysterical, considering her husband is Jordanian and he is such a neat freak he actually cleans with a q-tip. LOL That got so bad that it even went to her personal blog!
Yes, we are entitled to our opinions. It's just sometimes, words are better left unsaid.

I totally dont' agree with juliana leaving and I find her writing style very entertaining. That's the nitpicking that I am not into,i.e. taking one thing someone says and running with it for the sake of making waves.

The difference is that the other two scenarios you spoke of involved the detriment of another human being. I dont' think they really can be compared. yes Jean needed compassion but her last post made on June 6 in the other section tells me that that got her no where since she is now contemplating getting him out and working things out.

I know all too well the emotional backlash of abuse. I was subject to a form of abuse that no one likes to talk about for over 10 years every single frikkin day of my life. It is because people were too "nice" that it was never brought to anyone's attention.......people didn't want to make waves back then so the victim was continually victimized and still suffers today in many many many areas of her life. I don't think that talking about it like it's not there does anyone any good and my conscience will never ever let me be silent in that regard.

Reading this thread is making me think have Dan and I posted something that hurt someone's feeling. I hope we have not and we never plan to hurt anyone here. Well, I guess... think twice (or more than that) before posting something.

-Gemvita

I really don't care for "personal attacks" -- by this I mean ad hominem insults, etc. I don't like racist or sexist remarks either.

However, I think that sometimes people get overly defensive, and perfectly reasonable responses are interpreted as personal attacks when they actually are just honest opinions.

If you are going to put stuff out on a public message board, you need to realize that you can't control who will read it and what their opinions will be, or prevent them from commenting pretty much as they see it. You have to be prepared to be a little thick-skinned, because not everyone is going to agree with you. Also, people who've been around a particular message board for a long time will usually remember a member's history of posts, not just one or two. And their opinions are often based on all they've seen over time.

So if it's a personal, private issue that you feel very sensitive about, and if you don't want anyone's opinion unless it jibes with your own or tells you what you want to hear, then I would strongly suggest taking it to another venue -- preferably a close circle of trusted family or friends that you know will give you the kind of "support" you want. An internet message board is really not the place for this.

Or you can always use the time-honored method of telling your story as if it happened to your "friend" or your "cousin" -- this can sometimes deflect attention away from yourself personally, but you will still have to wade through answers you may not find useful.

Mainly I guess -- keep in mind that THIS IS THE INTERNET. Once you put sensitive information out there, you can't take it back. And you really can't stop people from discussing it (one way or another) once they've decided they have something to say about it.

Exactly.... and I don't see it as bashing Jean, I see it as trying to knock some sense into her. I cannot condone helping a woman return with a man who beat her 5 times.

The thing that I am struck by is not the fact that people are "attacking" one another. If you wanna read, read. If you wanna post, post. If you have an opinion, state it. Wanna have a debate? Great. Ignore people, report people - whatever. Except to read some things you don't wanna read and say some things that people take the wrong way.


It's the viciousness that shocks me. I love to read the posts on this board, I love this forum, I continue to read even though my husband is here. I think that the people here (the ones that are left) have a formed a very strong support system which is important to both the people that have no where else to turn and those that do. This forum is a gold mine for those of us going through the ME/NA. Without it, I don't think I would have ever decided to file DCF for my husband, I think we would have kept doing long distance until I was able to move to Paris. But the nastiness is one of the reasons why I stopped posting last fall.

And Tammy- what exactly do you want everyone to do about Jean? Erase what we told her? Those things may sound harsh but it's the truth and very few people here tolerate her trying to get back together with her husband. We don't need you to shake your finger at us, even though you say that's now what you are doing. It's a discussion board as everyone has mentioned and people put themselves out there and the opinions and advice is natural.

We would be bad people to let Jean tell us her story and not give her the best advice we can give her. I would feel guilty being one of the sick people who told her everything can work out with a little bit of counseling.

Thanks anyways.

If anyone wants to start a personal attack on me because of what I said, BRING IT ON!
I am NOT condoning anything! I am simply stating a fact! If there are those who want to "think" I am pointing a finger at you, so be it.
These are the facts as I see them:
Jean was attacked by not only her husband, but by the nastiness here. Do you think she enjoyed being beaten by the man that she loves? I can assure you that she did not. Do you know what that does to a womans mental health? And then to attack her? Of course she had doubts as to what to do. He is her Husband, and she loves him. Does that make it right, NO, it does not. But to have to read all the nastiness that came her way because of it? How did any of that make it better? It's like kicking someone when they are already down!
And, it's not just about Jean, what about Julianna? What about Jess? What about the countless other people who have been subjected to such nastiness? The way I see it, if I don't know someone personally, and am very close to them, I would never take the liberties to pass judgment, or to give them advice that may not be wanted, or needed.
Things that do not directly affect your life, sometimes are better left as they are. And not commented on at all. This is my personal opinion, LOL and as I said before, if you don't want to know MY opinion, don't read this POST!! LOL


If anyone wants to start a personal attack on me because of what I said, BRING IT ON!
I am NOT condoning anything! I am simply stating a fact! If there are those who want to "think" I am pointing a finger at you, so be it.
These are the facts as I see them:
Jean was attacked by not only her husband, but by the nastiness here. Do you think she enjoyed being beaten by the man that she loves? I can assure you that she did not. Do you know what that does to a womans mental health? And then to attack her? Of course she had doubts as to what to do. He is her Husband, and she loves him. Does that make it right, NO, it does not. But to have to read all the nastiness that came her way because of it? How did any of that make it better? It's like kicking someone when they are already down!
And, it's not just about Jean, what about Julianna? What about Jess? What about the countless other people who have been subjected to such nastiness? The way I see it, if I don't know someone personally, and am very close to them, I would never take the liberties to pass judgment, or to give them advice that may not be wanted, or needed.
Things that do not directly affect your life, sometimes are better left as they are. And not commented on at all. This is my personal opinion, LOL and as I said before, if you don't want to know MY opinion, don't read this POST!! LOL

honestly i think its nice to be able to post somewhat personal things on a relatively annonymous website like this. where else can you get a totally unbiased opinion about something if you need advice? (besides a shrink. HAHA) but i do think its a shame when people give responses that are totally rude and uncalled for. just because it is the internet doesn't mean you can't have tact or common decency. if your friend or family member came to you and needed advice or a shoulder to cry on, would you be as rude to them as some of you are here?

Cosign

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Furthermore, before you post your personal business on here, seek out a dear friend or family member or other confidante before you post personal details. I have three very dear friends that I met on VJ and anything that relates to immigration that may be personal, I confide in them and get their thoughts as they are going through the process too and can give sound advice. After all, as my grandma always told me, a friend is someone who knows all about you,but likes you anyway.

Also, if you sincerely believe that someone needs to hear certain information that could possibly upset or cause one to become embarrassed or defensive, just send them a PM. After all, if the ultimate goal is that the person hear the information and not simply to ridicule or demean, the person will get the message just as well in PM. Case in point, yesterday I was in the heat of battle in another thread and probably said something that was over the top and I knew that I owed a VJ member an apology.

However, by the time I went back to the thread to apologize, it had been locked. So, instead of saying , oh well, this is the internet and it is not like I will ever see that person , I sent the VJ member a PM and said I am sorry and the member graciously accepted. I know people are different and this is just what works for me and the code of conduct I try to follow when on any public forum.

THANK YOU!!!
Finally someone gets it!!
There is Always going to be someone who doesn't agree with you, or who questions your decisions. That doesn't mean they have the right to attack you with nastiness and rudeness. An example. When I showed my wedding pictures to my own sister, these were her commnets: Your dress was very nice, who did your makeup? Your husband is a hottie, are you sure he didn't marry you for a green card?" Those were her words exactly. Does she know or care how very hurtfull her words were to me? Probably, since she is that way. However, had the situation been reversed, and I had the same thoughts in my head, I would have simply said," You made a very lovely bride, I hope you are both happy". See how words can hurt, or help? Simple, right?

What nastiness to Jean? People are helping her more than she knows it.

I don't get what you want to come from this thread. A pat on the back? Do you want people to apologize to Jean? What has been said is said and I don't think anyone regrets the advice they gave to Jean. It's human nature to try to help someone who is in a situation like Jean.

Part of the problem is that 'offensive' seems to be conflated with 'has a different opinion than me and doesn't agree.' I see no reason for people to chase down and harass people, but for the board to be worthwhile, people have to be able to say more than 'I love you and I support you and will nod along with whatever you say.'

good Post!!

I've seen it happen too.. i think alot of people have hate in their heart and wake up in the morning just waiting to see who they can make feel bad..
You just have to learn how to ignore them..

This happens too much on this site as a whole. This place is supposed to be for information and support. That hasn't been the case lately in a lot of areas.

IMHO the personal attacks are...well....can you say DRAMA? Some people seem to thrive on drama. That takes away from what this site was originally intended from. OT is a place to talk about other things rather than always focusing on immigration, but there are personal attacks that happen there as well. I thought regional forums were to help each other, not tear each other down. I guess I was wrong, eh? *sigh*

No, I am not looking for a "pat on the back". Not at all. I just question whatever happened to human kindness, compassion, there is not enough of either in the world these days. There IS a way to give advice, and your opinions, without being rude, or nasty. I have not pointed a finger at anyone, have not mentioned even one name, in all of this today. I am simply stating MY opinion on what I have seen here. I don't expect anyone to say "sorry" to anyone, least of all to me. Sorry is an easy word to say, but once the hurt has been delivered, it doesn't mean very much to the person who was hurt in the first place. Once the damage has been done, it is done. As I see it, vj lost two very good people, that I know of, and I wonder how many more have, or will leave?

ALSO ANOTHER GOOD ONE THAT HELPED WITH THE RETURNS........and more before those last two...

vj has lost a lot more than two people since I've been here.

There is JP, VP, mybackpages, bosco, Rahma, ..........................those are the only permanent ones I can think of so far but I'm sure the list is longer.

Who's next?





(my sad attempt at levity )

Please do not be naive enough to believe that the people who left did so because of personal attacks occuring. There is a lot more to it than that. Sometimes, believe it or not, people do have a life. They have moved on to a different stage in their life and VJ does not hold that position it once did.

For me, the middle-school mentality of a lot on this board, and in MENA in particular, is a HUGE reason to back away. What is the point of talking to people who refuse to take out their earplugs and remove their rose-colored glasses? I don't believe in "blowing sunshine up someone's @ss" either.

Please read what I wrote. I did not say anywhere that they left due to personal attacks.

I'm sorry that Julianna left, I didn't read the thread that sent her packing. I'm only reading now that she has left. If anyone knows how to contact her, please pass it on to me, if she's ok with that. I like to stay in touch with her. If not, I only wish her and her hubby the very best.

I am among those who do not see Jean as a smuck. I am willing to try to be constructive in her situation and intend to continue to provide support, advice and concrete help for her and Moh. Maybe that makes me a smuck in some minds, too, but I can live with that.

I don't read much anymore and post even less. My membership continues as a mere formality, at this time.

Good thread, Tammy Sue!

There are always a few people who will get very vocal about their opinions and some of them became down right obnoxious. Then there is the crowd that feels the need to attack the attacker. If negative posts bother someone, they should simply ignore them (as many, many people do) and focus on the positive. Those who enjoy a conflict, can carry on.

I normally stay out of trouble, and don't reply to people to seem to be trying to make trouble (even though it's not like that from their pov). I've been storing up a lot of thoughts. If they are incomplete and you think any of them are wrong, that's because I get too frustrated by people to finish the line of thought.

Some people flippantly say they don't care how what they say sounds to other people. I dnn't remember who, when, or where on these boards.

Would it hart someone to take a moment to consider their style of message delivery? If they constantly have someone telling them how harsh they are being, and they reply that they don't care...I'd say show some consideration, but they just said they don't care, so why would they try to show some consideration? I can't really generalize (although it does sound like I just did) because I've seen that some of them actually do show some consideration.

Having a opinion different from mine is. Fine. Belittling me for thinking something is not fine.

Some people don't have a lot of support from other people, so they go here thinking there will be someone who *gets* it. I have friends, yes, but none of them are dealing with immigrations, and they are still shy and havn't had much in the way of our kinds of relationships so hearing Rachid this, Rachid that, consulate this, consulate that....we just don't connect in this matter, they support, but their eyes seem to glaze over sometimes hehehe

Sometimes it does seem easier to tell strangers somewhat intimate things. Telling them something that is difficult for them to hear is ok....but if they bring it here they need a little support.

If you've had a bad experience and worked hard to get over it, sometimes one is left with an attitude which is useful for themselves, but not so much for the person who has never completed the experience personally. Go ahead and say, "if you go back into that situation, I am worried for you." You can advise and maybe the person won't take the advice, but you can't make someone do anything. Maybe you know better. Just....careful of seeming holier than thou or 'know it all.'

Sometimes I am surprised by how some people can post something and NOT see how it could possibly be offensive. Sometimes I wonder, "can't you see how quarrelsome that sounded!?" Thare are some people here who always seem to have good advice, but it is often written in such an aggressive manner, then they say "I'm just speaking the truth and you just don't want to hear it!" Because you have such informed things to say, that makes it alright to express it that way? It really does make that person look like they enjoy it. Perhaps they don't, but because they "don't care" it makes them LOOK like they in ARE in fact enjoying it.

Admit it or argue, VJ is like a family. There are arguments. People are driven out, made to feel unwelcome. This happens with families. Not all families run smoothly.

This next idea may sound idealistic and unrealistic to some people....in some way we are all related to each other. Some societies only relatiions within a certain degree are considered family, some societies have loooong extended families. For all practical purposes a "family" can only include so many degrees of relation. Ever looked at a family tree? Go back further and further. All of those people had children, who had children, who had children. They married people from other families, mixing bloodlines and adding more relatives. It's impossible to trace because not all records are kept, but somehow we are all related to each other, everyone in the world. I can't give a birthday present to all those people! Which is why for many practical purposes we don't think about how we are related. And if we're all family, then we ALL need to TRY TO GET ALONG!

Then there are those times when someone seems to be saying something in complete innocence, and another person jumps on them for having ulterior motives, or meaning something deeper. And they we have trouble seeing what exactly was offensive.

And then there are the people who pick on language. "Don't you know English!!!!" We're not all english teachers, and we're not all from the US, and people do have varying degrees of proficiency with written/spoken english.

All that being said, in a creative writing class we were studying poetry. In discussion it came up how people can interpret a poem very differently. The author may be writing about the beauty of a flower, but the reader might look at the author's background and come up with a complicated interpretation and a specific politial world view, all very complicated. And when the author wrote it, all they were thinking of was the beauty of a flower. but once something is published, people read into it whatever they want and the author has no ability to change the readers mind. Maybe say, "this poem has nothing to do with my political views! I was just writing about the beauty of flowers!!!"

Public bulletin boards are similar. But not the same. A poem is 1-way communication. These boards are group communication. We don't have to look so deeply at each other's posts and make assumptions about each other, like the reader of the hypothetical flower poem. In reviewing that author's book of poetry, you can be really rough. It is a review and you are supposed to say what you think. On the other hand, MENA is not for reviewing someone's book of their life.

Try to treat each other like family members that you don't know too well. It is hard to get the whole picture over the internet by reading a few posts.


Blahhhhh! I have so much in my head about this it's all trying to get out at once and that won't work. This is why I usually stay out of it. Then it seemed that this thread is quite appropriate for venting it out and it won't be interfering with a totally unrelated subject.

Here is a support site. http://www.enotalone.com they take excerpts from books trying to get you to buy them, but look for the bulletin board section (not the part trying to tempt you into buying a book). It is for sharing things when you feel alone like there is no one who understands. My suggestion is that for sensitive personal information you can go there are keep it separate from VJ. Change the names and places and make it so no one can recognize you. Keep VJ a pleasant, helpful place for yourself instead of a making it a bad place. Not that anyone here LIKES the immigration process, but to make this place more positive, consider an alternative venue. There are some friendly discussion groups on yahoo. Some of them are well run and moderated, and personal attacks very strongly discouraged. They allow being truthful, but only if you show compassion too (compassion is not the same as 'blowing sunshine up someone's....").


BT