I want to know one thing. Do you think the cards were stacked against you before he even got in there? If thats the case, why do they even send people approvals if evidence does not matter?

Approvals from USCIS have little or no bearing on consulate appovals. Two different departments. Two different set of guidelines. USCIS will approve petitions who meet their standards. For example the K-1 only requires you are a US citizen and have met your fiance within the last 2 years.

I am in the school of thought that Casablanca does prejudge cases based ont he evidence submitted with the original petition. I thnk the key characteristics Casa looks for are length of time together, explaination of meeting and timing of the engagement. A large age difference or language incompadibility only add to the suspicion.

Many of those that say the consulate did not look at the evidence brought by their SO, seem to have a great deal of red flags according to the consulate. It appears that what happens in the brief interview is enough to confirm their suspicion. So much so that submitting piles of emails and phone records is just not enough in the mind of the consulate to be enough to overcome the burden of suspicion.

Some couples are asked to show evidence. My fiance was asked to bring back more evidence. And many couples who do appear to have similar red flags (age difference, meeting ont he internet etc) appear to have no problems getting the visa. IMO part of the problem is not understanding the process. If we all went into the process knowing the burden of proof was on us to show a legitimate relationship and that the burder was a heavy one, we would all be better prepared and many of the good legitimate couples would not get snared in the fraud net.

My honest answer - yes, I think the Morocco CO in particular tries to find any red flag they can to tell people no. We have an age difference of 13 1/2 years. So I think they jumped on it. It did not matter that out of our almost 15 months relationship, that we have been living together for half of that, as a

My honest answer - yes, I think the Morocco CO in particular tries to find any red flag they can to tell people no. We have an age difference of 13 1/2 years. So I think they jumped on it. It did not matter that out of our almost 15 months relationship, that we have been living together for half of that, as a

My honest answer - yes, I think the Morocco CO in particular tries to find any red flag they can to tell people no. We have an age difference of 13 1/2 years. So I think they jumped on it. It did not matter that out of our almost 15 months relationship, that we have been living together for half of that, as a matter of fact - they would not even allow him to show any of our proof - nothing! To me there is something wrong in that.

They send the approvals fro mthe states - the CO is only supposed to go against the approval if they have concrete evidence that the relationship is a fraud - they are not even supposed to return the cases to he states because of the backlogs they are creating UNLESS they have CONCRETE EVIDENCE. With Morocco - you have a 50/50 shot, kind of like flipping a coin and calling heads or tails.

I think you should stress in your appeals GENDER BIAS. I think from what I am reading is that you have a clear case of GENDER BIAS.

From what i am seeing, there needs to be a tally of all denied visas and how many of them were women petitioning men. I think its clearly gender bias and if thebooks were opened, it will show that they are denying women on a much higer level. What drives me the craziest is the marriage brokers funneling women in and out of south america, the dominican republic and russia and there is no way most of these women speak english or are getting the drilling that you are getting. I really feel sorry for you and all of these women struggling against the obvious gender bias that is being dished out. If you are white, female and older than the beneficiary, then you can expect for people not to believe you love or are in love and then you have truckloads of mail order brides getting in here that I am SURE do not know half the things you know about your spouse... AND YOU ARE LIVING THERE FOR GODS SAKE. ThIS IS NUTS

Really I am beginning to hate computers - sorry for the multiple post there - this computer is old and sometimes i hit the wrong button too - doesn't help when I am using an arabic keyboard either - LOL - sorry!

The sad part about your last paragraph - yes, the burden of proof is on us, but you have to be allowed to show that proof during your interview - how can you prove something if it is not allowed? I have watched people go through there with nothing and have a lot of red flags and no english and hey have walked out of there with VISA's - the system is flawed - they are playing guessing games - I have watched people go in there and have no red flags and not get their VISA. The Morocco CO is just flipping a coin most of the time.

I am breaking my case up one by one - gender bias is another possibility - whenever there is an older woman and younger man, people look at it strange, but if it is the other way - it is normal. My mother is 15 years older than her husband and they have been together for over 20 years! And you are very correct on the mail order bride thing - it is allowed all the time and most of these women are paid for - I do not understand any of this double standard garbage. I am sorry, but I really have to keep coming back to remind them consistantly that I am living here - Dear God, how much more proof does someone need - but then again, they would not allow any evidence to be shown.

I agree there needs to be some change to the process and I am so sorry you are caught in this situation. I think though that the ways the policy is written that Casa has decided the way they will carry out that policy. The rules say if the Consulate does not think the submission of more evidence will be enoug to overcome the burden of proof, it is not necessary to ask for it. Consulates have a great deal of autonomy in the way they carry out policy. Casa for example is one of the few consulates that does not require an affidavit of support for the K-1 visa.

What happens at Casa is not much different than what happens at other high fraud consulates. The entire system has flaws not just Casa.

I am curious why you think the age difference was the key factor for you. We have the same age difference and it was no problem (in the end anyway- who knows what they thought when they saw our petition). Based on the information you have posted here before, it seems there was more to it than just that. I am not saying it isn't a factor, but I think we have to look at the whole picture and not just one characteristic.

I think it may appear to be a coin toss, but I think we are looking at from the outside and there are key pieces ot the puzzle we are missing. At best any guessing on what is happening is based on circumstancial evidence.

I do hope this is resolved for you soon.

It may be the timing. It may be who interviewed her to as apposed to you or the mood that they were in. I have been reading some really unusual stuff.

I do take serious issue with the gender bias issue. I really think the cards are stacked against women. What if women opened up one of these marriage agencies with moroccan men. The whole place would be in an uproar. but because these cheese cake marriage sites with the lawyer on staff have popped up.. look for them

mail order brides. , russian ladies etcc

What would happen if women got together and did a moroccan marriage agency... Good word.. everyone would freak..But men can do as they please and marry women 40 years younger and get their papers 1 2 3.. Not fair. I am sorry .. not fair

Right, so how much of that was evidenced in your petition? Isn't this the theory behind sending sufficient evidence *with the petition*, so that the Consulate may NOT use that as a reason to return AND so that your case evidence *does* get a chance to be seen?

Have you read the essay by Marc Ellis, who posts here as EllisIsland? It might be worth searching out.

Unfortunately there are thousands of years of history to support a gender bias playing a role.

But if the marriage is against local custom, how can you play the gender bias card?

Yes, it's normal in US society, but what about your husband's country? Is it normal there for a woman to be 15-20 years older than her spouse?

Are you sure you want to stand on the statement that women are paid for and imported to the US, a marriage only for the immigration benefit?

who dictates what local custom is? Is it local custom in the philipines to marry someone 58 when you are 28? Its happening and the women are getting papers. Russian marriage agencies? Happening..huge age disparity and these girls know very little about the men they are meeting...

And its only a card you are playing if you are the one with your life getting destroyed by other peoples preconceived ideas about who is allowed to love and not. And by the way, I am not talking about my case. I havent even gotten an AO2. I am talking about basic fundamental gender bias that is being perpetuated against women in the immigrations system. Especially when you have a couple LIVING TOGETHER and they are telling her its not a real marriage and then these marriage brokers have russian babe parties and fly truckloads of men over there and these girls are getting their visas while you have women MARRIED to men and some of them living with them that cannot get papers..

IF THEY SET UP A MARRIAGE AGENCY FOR WOMEN TO FIND MEN LIKE THESE MEN GET>>> BOY OH BOY\\

think i am off

google russian brides, columbian women,etc

if thats fair.. that these guys can " pick a chick", work the system and get a lawyer all on one site and then get them here 1 2 3. something is very very very wrong

Dear God in heaven - so do we!

there are hundreds years of history to show race discriminatin also that doesnt make it right, in our case we know our ages, they knew from day one. If we were in the U>S> would the government step in to be sure we werent makeing a mistake? That should be the couples choice not the governments.

Then wouldn't you still have to have a common language? ASL is a language, and isn't random and if both people know it, they don't need a friend to translate.




You know who says this? People who can't communicate about children, bills, goals through a common language.

I am not saying we must accept gender bias, but if we move through any system and not expect to see it embedded in how policies are carriedout, we are only hurting ourselves. Casa is not saying that couples with an age difference can not be together for many couples with age differences are approved. Casa is saying, IMO, that that characteristic of the relationship can be one factor in raising suspicion on a case.

her husband said he found her by searching the yahoo directory looking for American women. And they commnicate with charades and a friend translating. No one outside the two of them stacked anything up against them.

Not true. Approvals outweigh denials far more than 50%.

And, whether your husband meant to or not, his answers made him look very suspect.

What none of you seem to understand is, YOU ARE NOT THE PETITIONER. You are not requesting a visa, the man is. This is because of evidence of MENA (Morocco in particular) being high fraud. You are not being oppressed here. These men are being denied visas, not you women.

Can we say this just a little louder please. This is correct. The burden of proof is on the fiance/husband to prove he is qualified to receive the visa. We would see less denials if more people understand the process better.

Do you know nothing about the culture from which your husband comes? Your mother's situation is irrelevant, that is in the US (and still not common). IT ISN'T COMMON FOR MENA MEN TO MARRY SIGNIFICANTLY OLDER WIVES therefore it's a red flag to the consulate that is very familiar with local customs.




Based on her posts and the petition she has going, age difference was the least of the COs concerns.

Simple, you can't.

You can't be serious with this question. Of course it's normal for younger women to marry older men in every fricking culture on the planet. Who decides what's culturally acceptable? The local people, for one. To impose your idea of how things should be on another culture doesn't bode well for your future with a mena man, let me tell you.

I want to tell you that in 1911 my great grandmother from Ireland married a 27 year old and she had her first baby at 41, her second at 43 and her third at 45.

Second, I will not argue with you your points but age is no guarantee..

I have countless american female friends who were younger than their spouses from Morocco who are now divorced

25 and 18
30 20
and on and on and on

One was within 2 years of the other and they divorced 2 months after he got his citizenship

Then I know women who are older that have kids with the men and are happy. My point is that I feel that there is a huge gender bias and I think these women are being put through a lot more than the men as far as I am concerned. I also think that the women are being hit harder in many ways. Wrong or right. The facts speak for themselves. If a man is going to take a woman for a ride for papers, he wil do it with younger women too. I personally know 3 Moroccan men who dumped their younger american wives as soon as they got papers and married Moroccan women from back home ( I get to meet alot of moroccans cause of the disney thing) I think its unfair to beat up on these older american women for their age and say that there is no way their relationships are legitamate when there are busloads of American men arriving for mail order bride parties and I doubt that these girls are put through half of what Aicha has been through. I dont know her personally and again the whole things has not affected me

As far as MENA man? Algerians and Moroccans and Tunisians and Egyptians all have very very different personalities. These differences exist even within Algeria with the west being very open... concerts rai music... most of Moroccos and Algerian popular music comes out of WAHRAN and I will tell you there is a huge difference between even parts of Morocco and Algeria and each family has its own dislikes and likes. I would never stick my face into someone elses relationship and start passing judgements. A 40 year old who takes care of herself and is vibrant and sexy is going to be more attractive than a younger woman who doesnt. Agism isnt just being practiced by some of these authorities. Its the idea that some how we have the right to judge other peoples lives.. their love lives based on age and gender..I know multiple friends of mine who are Moroccan here in the USA involved with older woman and THEY HAVE THEIR PAPERS. Its a personal choice and not fair to lump any group together. AGain , I do not know AIcha.. I just feel for her .. thats all

Uh huh. Exceptions are very few and far between in the US let alone in maghreb. And rai was illegal in Algeria not that many years ago, so the picture you are painting is not based on history, but on your own recent limited experience. How many chebbis have fled, been put in jail, or otherwise persecuted (since you are the expert)?

I will not argue your points. In conventional wisdom, yes. I just think that what is happening to these women is very unfair. That is my opnion and I stand behind it. Secondly, my experience is not limited, I have been to Algeria multiple times and lived among them here and abroad. Each person is very different and I have seen true love between people of differing ages. Each person is different. And rai was never illegal in ORAN.. They may have had problems in the past but ORAN is a very open minded place..

You are correct in many of your statements and assumptions. I just do not think its fair to lump Algerians, Moroccans ,Berbers and middle easterners all in one pile.I say live and let live and age is no guarantee of a real relationship.....all you have to do is track relationships past the citizenship stage and then you will see perhaps what I am talking about.. age isnt the only issue in the dismantling of these relationships. Religion can play a huge factor, family disapproval etc

The one fact that can not be danced around is that statistically speaking one characteristic occuring frequently in fraud cases is the eistence of a large age gap. If you are a legitimate couple with a large age gap then your case will be lilkely to be scutinized more closely not that you are more likely to receive the denial.

If you don't know that Rai & Rai singers were illegal in Algeria not that long ago,, you don't know squat.

Oran is open? Like when Hasni was gunned down in the street in Oran?

I know very well amazigh, maghrebi, arabs can be different, but it's not the norm, and for you to think a consulate should make decisions based off non-traditional relationships without question, you are naive.

I said in ORAN not ALGERIA. RAI is the music played in all weddings and was born out wedding music judeo arabic wedding music. For a few years in the 1990s, rai was not performed live but it still was played. Being that I am personal friends with about 5 very famous rai singers and I write about rai for the media, I guess I don't know anything. I am absolutely sure you are not married to an Algerian.. and the reason I know this is there were 100,000 killed in algeria during the 1990's but Oran was largely spared this. Cheb Hasni and Cheb Aziz were killed but many more kept a low profile during the hardest years but were still very beloved. this has nothing to do with the topic and I am just going to tell you I am naive, stupid, dont know anything about North Africa and that you are correct.I have actually been in ORAN.. I doubt you have as many westerners including Moroccans have not been there. It is the birthplace of RAI and even in the darkest hours of the turmoil of Algeria, ORAN remained a joyous place.

Don't teach me about ALGERIA or RAI or the North African Area. And dont tell me what is happening to these women is warranted or fair by culture or any other standard. People have a right to love who they want to love. And if you are not walking in their shoes, which you are not being that you are in the naturalization process, its not your right to judge or play jury. Just let them be and let them talk about their feelings. I guess I don't know squat. you know what the media tells you. Islamists murdered and slaughtered rai singers but they did not squelch it. It may have been illegal to play on the radio for a while, but it always danced in the hearts of Oranis and was played in the cars and in private parties.

I dont know anything about culture second hand. I have made my own conclusions based on what I have seen and known and time time I spent in North Africa and with Algerians world wide over the last 6 years.

You turned my defense of this woman into an attack on me. Where you get off telling me I dont know about Algerian music or history is beyond me.

by the way its CHEBS not chebbis

Algeria sounds so romantic. Should we have a transliteration lesson?

You insist this is gender bias. It is not. You don't know anything about my process, but I can tell you I certainly didn't think I was owed any kind of visa for my husband the way you seem to.

transliteration....um....um

ok for 500 I will take North African wedding singers

um speaking of North african wedding singers.....

CHEIKHA FATIMA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSKVZNhXtO8

um...... ummmmmmm....ummmmm

PEEZY... I am a ALBERT CAMUS and FRANTZ FANON and SARTRE GIRL

um... getting existentialist with it

uha hahahahhahahahhah ( sung to getting jiggy with it)

right or wrong... I hope aicha gets her visa for her man... GO AICHA GO.

the guys with the 20 years younger women are doing it.. YOU GO GIRL

as far as you PEEZY? Who uses words like transliteration anyway except in term papers or in thesis statements? This is board not contest of who is right. Its not my guy anyway. I just was holding a candle for aicha and all the underdogs..

Hey here is another ALGERIAN WEDDING SINGER

CHEIKHA RIMITTI died last year at 83

you go girl dont let these young chicks call you an old hag

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7EViaMRjwI...ted&search=

It's actually used commonly on immigration discussion boards. There's quite a bit of that when dealing with the many 'alphabets' of the world...

ITS ROMANTIC AS HECK AND HAS THE BEST MUSIC... ORAN IS THE PLACE WHERE ALL RAI WAS BORN

Moroccans adore RAI RAI RAI RAI
and its from ALGERIA ALGERIA ALGERIA ( except for OUJDA RAI which is pretty awesome

twahask tek bezef al aljazair

TRANSLITERATION
hhahhahahhahahahha
hahhahhahahahaha


or mdrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr which is dying of laughing in darja....gees

go aicha go...

get your mans papers

live your life and fight for your happiness girl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LFJY3tX9TE aicha for aicha......algerian cheb khaled

You beat me to it Meauxna. Just wait for security name check time!

Excellent example--I wasn't even thinking that far ahead, but that is where the real consequences are!
yikes.

Okay - let me correct you here - My hsuband said he was looking for women to talk to by searching the member directory - I did not say anything about him saying he was looking to talk to only women in America - my husband spoke with women from Morocco - France - Germany, etc. it just ended that we were the two that fell in love.

Second - I did not say we communicate with "charades" - my lawyer had added into my letter of interview - the part of the hand gestures - and personally I do not feel anything wrong with hand gestures - do you point to something when you are trying to get someone to look at something you see? - hand gestures.

Third - this one is real important - I said that the CO Officer asked "HOW DID YOU LEARN ENGLISH?" my husband's response was, "I LEARNED FROM MY FRIENDS" -------- The CO Officer took that statement to say that we have help from friends communicating always ------ WE DO NOT - DO NOT HAVE ANYONE COMMUNICATING FOR US - NO HELP - NO NOTHING - MY HUSBAND AND I TALK TO EACH OTHER EVERY DAY WITH NO PROBLEMS ------- Please hear what I am saying here - most days I wish I could tell my husband to close his mouth - LOL - he talks and talks and talks and sometimes he just does not stop. There is no friends or any other person ever translating for us - never.

go be happy aicha and fight hard for your love.I wish you the best....

The sad part about this is when you hire an attorney who has been in the immigration business part of law for over 17 years and he does not do his job to prepare you - I paid out 1800 dollars plus all my filing fees to make sure no mistakes were made and my lawyer did not do his job - right now I am paying for the fact that we listened to him in this matter - currently he is not my attorney and we are trying to fix this with other avenues at this point. the worst thing we did was to trust a lawyer to know the process, I figured over 17 years was a good place to start, but I was wrong. Why do we have lawyers who specialize in fields when they do not do the job correctly. You trust these people to prep you and to not miss anything - never again.

peezy post

Do you know nothing about the culture from which your husband comes? Your mother's situation is irrelevant, that is in the US (and still not common). IT ISN'T COMMON FOR MENA MEN TO MARRY SIGNIFICANTLY OLDER WIVES therefore it's a red flag to the consulate that is very familiar with local customs.
Based on her posts and the petition she has going, age difference was the least of the COs concerns.
[/quote]


Actually, I do know about my husband's country and his cultures - and to clarify - there are many women here that are the older one in the marriage, is it an age old custom - No, but it is happening more and more these days. It is done here, just like in the USA. I only mentioned my mom because they have a great marriage - not that it has anything to do with my case in particular. Based on my posts you really need to make sure you clarify who is saying what - I said what the CO said is not what was actually said in the interview.

These two things you wrote in your letter imply that there's a spoken word communication issue. Sure we all communicate visually, but I wouldn't even begin to confuse the issue by saying as such if the verbal communication was sufficient. And if your husband learned English, then I don't understand why he didnt' answer differently to the question in red. The simple fact that the CO asked this question shows that your husband did not display a knowledge in the English language. And the bit in purple is strange...you understand his english, but no one else does?

Not trying to rag on you, just giving you outside perspective.