I was vasked about my situation and if I had informed the VJ of my situation - No I had not as of yet - been really caught up in the process of fighting this denial. I did update my timeline and put a note in my profile - but now I will try to give details of our situation.

Our interview for a K-3 VISA was on March 21, 2007 at 8 am with the wonderful Casablanca, Morocco consulate. I know this consulate has had a lot of mixed review and according to our lawyer this consulates denial rate is over 50 percent. I would love to add our detailed step by step interview, but it is quite large. Through many daily contacts and lies from the consulate - I finally got the confirmation date of return of our papers and also the reason for denial. Mind you I contacted them daily and finally sent out a very long letter to the Ambassador, the Consulate General and teh Cosulate Chief Officer - with this I got the specific reasons for denial. Here is that response:

This is in response to your recent e-mail message to Ambassador Riley and Consul General Greene regarding the Immigrant Visa case of your husband, Mr. Mourad Hattari..



The record indicates that, despite the assistance of an English-, French- and Arabic-speaking interpretor during the interview, Mr. Hattari could provide very few details about is his relationship with you other than your name, occupation, number of children, and birthday. When asked how you met and communicate, he could not specify the website via which you initally made contact, simply saying that it was shown to him by a friend. He also said that he largely relies on friends not only to handle written e-mail communication with you while you were in the U.S., but also for verbal communication when you're in Morocco.



Mr. Hattari was given numerous opportunities during the interview to provide information in his native language about you and your relationship, but was only able to provide the bare minimum cited above. Therefore, the Consular Officer returned the file including the original I-130 petition (which is standard procedure in such cases) to the Department of Homeland Security's United States Citizenship and Immigration Service (USCIS) via the National Visa Center for a further review of the of the relationship. Unfortunately, this office has no authority over the case at this time and to seek information about its status, you need to contact the USCIS National Customer Service Center at 1-800-375-5283.



I trust you find this information helpful.

Do I find it helpful - lol - NO! This whole report of what the CO wrote in her report was fabricated. She took details from our interview to turn them into something else that was never said. Example - her question "How did you learn english?" My hsuband's response "I learned from friends." The translator was provided for one question - that question was what is the member directory? ( referring to yahoo personals member directory) and my hsuband had a hard time trying to explain the details of how that system works, so he was provided a translator for that one purpose. The woman through this entire interview used norrible body language, hand gestures and made numerous disgraceful faces - what a nice impression she made. She finally at the end of the interview asked my hsuband for our proof of rrelationship and as he was trying to show her everything, including my residency here, she handed him the 221(g) and walked away not even allowing him the chance to show her anything. This is a rundown of our experience and I even have a lawyer - the consulate will not respond to him at all, not even one time. The Consulate Chief Officer told me in the reply above that he returned our I-130/CR1 - this was another lie of theirs - my lawyer said our CR1 is ion process at the NVC and plus I have not paid the fees on it yet, so it has never left the states to even come here yet. This is how this Consulate works - they don't! My lawyer even went on to tell me that we should divorce and marry in another country or at least try to get to anotehr country and get residency papers and then we would go through that country's consulate instead - I was applaed at my lawyer for this - I need him to do his job, not give me things that just are not an option finacially or emotionall!

Well there it is - a brief description of our journey so far - not a fun one.

sorry this posted twice - not sure why!

if you and your husband speak the same language whats the problem? apprently the embassy is under the impressing you both talk through a communication device such as babble fish. if this is not true then PROVE it. That is how you will over come this denial.

oh yeah and you have to prove your husband KNOWS you. apprently he knows only 3 things about you.

For one, this was only a very minimal of what actually transpired in this interview. I have a very lengthy letter that was drawn up of the entire interview and for her to come to the those conclusions was wrong - my husband tried to give this woman proof, she walked away and would not allow it. There were many more questions and I think if my husband only knew three things about me - I would not be here living with him.

It IS a tough situation.

That being said, why would a consulate go out of their way to "fabricate" a story against you and your husband, "personally"? I don't see what they would have to gain by doing so.

That's a very serious claim you are making..................and to make such a claim, you hopefully have something to back it up,

Because, if it's just your word against theirs....................and that's all you got, I don't think you will get very far.

Especially when they seem to have a pretty good argument and explanation for their side.........judging by that email.

then you have to provide the proof with your rebuttle. you must address each issue WORD FOR WORD. Drop the fabrication ideas. and refocus on how to get this over turned. basicly READ what the embassy is saying and understand what they mean. I am not saying this to humour you but, to help you. sometimes when we are in this situation its easy to be damm bitter and not focus on the issues at hand. so first step - your husband has to PROVE he knows YOU. I am not talking about simple stuff.. I am talking he has to really know about YOU apprently the embassy is getting a diffrent impression. Stop blaming the translater. there was something in the way that your husband communicated that left a diffrent impression. ok FINE. now address it.

as far as his e mails to you. ok have him keep sending emails to you. show the USICS all the proofs. get this monkey reaffirmed!!

shoot I forgot to add. if you and your husband speak a common language such as english . there would have never been a need for a translator. that in itself is a big RED FLAG. unles you both speak fluent language other than english. then I would see why the need for a translater- coz the embassy personel speak english. but if you ONLY speak english and your husband speak somethign else. then there was a translator the embassy would keep in their heads the entire interview
" how does this man communicate with this woman" . you understand? so thats why you have to prove the embassys idea is WRONG. not point fingers but show the proof.

Aicha ,the only thing that i can say is yur case is sent back to Homland security (on the back of your file) I130 or 129 the officer wrote (realtionship)thats all that means he want the homland security to make sure that the marriage is entered in a good faith not just for immigration benifits ,and 221g is NOT a denial if you take a look at it again you will see that they are asking for more process thats all ,are you a US citizen?if not that means you will have to wait untill you are a USC ,if you are he will be called for an other interview and he will be here for sure .

Aicha, I am curious about this statistic. Did you lawyer go into any details about how this rate was deterimined? Does it include tourist visas as well as family based immigrant and non-imigrant visas? Was this an educated guess based on his expertise int he field or also in conjunction with available government data?

I know Vj does not represent but a small percentage of families going through Casa and I do not think we as Vjers are truely reresentative of the group as a whole either. The success rate for Vjers is much higher and for these reasons may or may not mean much.

You are right - it is a very serious claim, but you also do not know the CASA Consualte. Maybe fabrication was too strong of a word to use - but assumtive is not - feel free to read my attachment - it is a detailed account of my husband's interview - and at the same time please realize that this consulate is very good at lying and doing whatever they choose. And even sadder - the way interviews are done - it will always be my word against theirs - there are no tapings of said interviews by video or by voice - so basically the interviewee is always screwed fro mthe beginning if something does not go right in the interview. I can also go have an interview with someone and take things said at that interview and turn them to say what I want to report - does it make it right - no, not even close and if I thought the way you are telling me to think - I might as well throw in the towel right now and not fight for something that I know is right. The woman would not allow any pictures, no letters, no conversations , not even a statement written by me taht I have been living here - not even the stamped paper from there own office taht had my change of address registration with them. Never will I be one who will stand back and quit because there e-mail is such a good argument. Cases are tried in courts for both sides to be presented - I could have wrote that e-mail too - does not make it right.

let me ask you this. when you was in Morocco. did you have alot of his friends around translation between the two of you? and did you have to hire a translater. this is with the exception of documents or the use of a translater for the marriage.

address the point to USICS:

"When asked how you met and communicate, he could not specify the website via which you initally made contact, simply saying that it was shown to him by a friend. He also said that he largely relies on friends not only to handle written e-mail communication with you while you were in the U.S., but also for verbal communication when you're in Morocco. "

Oops - hit the send button before the attachment - try this again. Obviously I have nothing to hide - I have communicated with these people, but I was lied to repeatedly by them in many e-mails - that is what I have going for my case - a lot of continued proof against them - even my attorney has been continually unanswered by this consulate.Click to view attachment

consulate can lie til they are green in the face. they are the issuers of the visa rember that when pointing a finger. rolling past that.. how about showing the proof to the USICS. They dont care about assumptions they want FACTS.
you need an attorney to help you with your rebuttle.

When she was in Morocco? correct me but isnt she living there?

Im sorry you are going through all this. While I cant offer any advice for your situation I hope that you find a way to set things straight so that you may be given the opportunity to with your husband.

Ambassador, the Consulate General and teh Cosulate Chief Officer - I know of Mckeever could i have names and address of others,

what is that letter for? to dayum your case or to help it? its not addressing Nothing. too much finger pointing..
I think you need to clean it up.. - try again!

think of how you can make a BRICK WALL crumble.. this is how you will over come the denial. if you live in morocco then address the need for your man to have a translator.

I didn't mean give up on your case entirely. I wouldn't do that if it were my wife in the situation that your husband is in......and I don't expect you to do it for him. I would fight to the ends of the world for her........and I am sure you would do the same for your husband.

I only meant that if you are going to accuse them of "fabrication" ....that unless you had anything to back up that claim, I didn't think you had much of a chance of getting anyone to take your side on that without proof.

Although you have changed the claims of "fabrication"..................you are still accusing them of making things up and lying. (doesn't seem like any disctinction between that and the term "fabrication")

Personally...I think you should give up accusing them of lying, fabricating etc........and just focus on doing what is best for you and your husband right now. That should be your real focus.

Even if that means jumping through a few hoops and going through some more hurdles. We've all had to do that for the sake of our spouses.

Just concentrate your efforts on getting more proof that your relationship with your husband is genuine. Because until you can convince them that it is..........all the accusations etc, won't help a thing.....or get you very far.

You are just going to frustrate and aggravate yourself and your husband , more.

Just giving my opinion and advice.

Good luck, either way......no matter how you decide to proceed with your case.

first here is a link: read it

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...c=64045&hl=

the bottom line is you want your husband home. sit back and think how you will reverse this. its like an elephant in the room. you can address the issues so the elephant can leave. or you can ignore it for years. by doing so you are
1. not allowing your husband here
2. allowing the problem to remain constant in your life. no matter if you file 1001 petitons the issues MUST be addressed and cleared up.

aicha, I've read over your account, and the summary given by the consulate is shorter, but it doesn't seem to contradict anything in your account except that the two of you don't need his friends to communicate in person.

There's a different spin on it, obviously. You see your husband as answering the questions and the interviewer sees a guy who describes the website (but doesn't say Yahoo personals) and how to search for the sort of women he wants, who doesn't (in the Consular officer's mind) speak adequate English, and who can reel off a list of facts about his intended, suggesting that he's been well-coached.

And it's good that you've provided this because the interviewee thinks he's answering some simple questions, and the interviewer draws a lot more from it. It's like giving an interview with a reporter and being surprised when the article comes out.

So the question is, where do you go from here? I think you're going to have a hard time arguing fabrication; even if that's true, the consular officer's account seems to jive enough with yours that you'd have a very hard time proving it.

The big worries here seem to be that his English isn't good enough to communicate with you (e-mail is fine, but e-mail, in the COs mind, doesn't have to be written by the interviewee) and that his description of the site sounded like he went hunting for an American (to an unsympathetic mind, and they are unsympathetic), and that his knowledge of you seems to be limited to 'name, rank, serial number.' That's what needs to be addressed.

So, some things to think about: can you show that his English has been improving over the year you've been together? What about your Arabic? Has it been improving? That would show he's not overly reliant on friends. Can you explain that you met on Yahoo! Personals? Who contacted whom? Did you meet while chatting, or by an e-mail? Has he met your children? Does he talk to them online or e-mail them? Photos?

They probably have a lot of this information, but what you're doing isn't providing just more information. You're providing the sort of narrative framework that allows the CO to see all the evidence as you see it.

You're very brave for posting this, and best of luck.

excellent advise!

consulate can lie til they are green in the face. they are the issuers of the visa rember that when pointing a finger. rolling past that.. how about showing the proof to the USICS. They dont care about assumptions they want FACTS.



you need an attorney to help you with your rebuttle.

i can help


chi



consulate can lie til they are green in the face. they are the issuers of the visa rember that when pointing a finger. rolling past that.. how about showing the proof to the USICS. They dont care about assumptions they want FACTS.



you need an attorney to help you with your rebuttle.

i can help


chi

Chi.. i posted your link ... I think you can help her ..but, she has to be willing to listion to ya.

okie dokie my replies are messed up.

number 1>>>

I CAN HELP YOU!

number 2>>>

YOU NEED NOT SECOND GUESS HOW TO GET HIM TO THE STATES.

number 3>>>you mentioned you have an attorny, is he good? does he know about the situation you currently find yourself in?

chi

Exactly---is it more important to be "right" or to get what you are after?

You got some great replies here--just throwing my two cents' worth in. Your letter is very passionate, but more suitable for your friends. I can't see it accomplishing forward movement toward a visa, for the reasons already mentioned here.

If this is the advice he gave to her below..........

My lawyer even went on to tell me that we should divorce and marry in another country or at least try to get to anotehr country and get residency papers and then we would go through that country's consulate instead - I was applaed at my lawyer for this - I need him to do his job, not give me things that just are not an option finacially or emotionall!

Then it doesn't sound like it.

I agree with her on that part of her post. If a lawyer just gave me that same advice that he gave to her...........it'd tick me off too!

What's the point of paying for a lawyer, if they're just going to tell you that?

I'd be looking for another lawyer.............................

Your letter's a good start, but it might help to strip it of some of the background. They're not going to give a damn that he was tired or had a long commute or was mistakenly asked for originals if none of that figured in the 221g.

You say in it you've studied philosophy, so you know how arguments work. Grant the assumption; undermine the premises. I'd start with the correspondence they gave you that explains why they denied it. Analyze it into reasons: no common language, including reliance on translators; way of meeting that looks like he went American hunting; and no intimate knowledge of your life.

Then rebutt those one by one with evidence. Are they wrong on the facts? Then show how. Are they wrong on the interpretation but right on the facts? Show them why your interpretation is better. Did they misunderstand him during the interview? Explain what he meant and back it up with documents.

Another thing I thought of as I was brainstorming how I would prove that C. and I were real if it came up....: do the two of you have e-mails where you discuss your future plans, not just get to the USA plans, but things like whether you'd have kids, or whether you'd want private school for them, or whether you think ballet is good for girls or leads to eating disorders? or your favorite memories or stories of your grandma or the little stuff that doesn't look like anything but forms the fabric of the relationship? Things that show that the two of you know each other well that doesn't look like a laundry list of common facts.

perhaps your attorney was telling you .. have him move to lets say CANADA apply for resident there. you can possible move closer to lets say the CAN. border. mean while fight for your case. that has been suggested in these and waiver cases before. There is a lady on here that got some banishment and she moved to CAN and her husband visits her on the weekends.

you know the embassy is also protecting you too. from being frauded.

ok then...scratch that.

i can still help though.

chi

What does that mean, all your posts saying you can help her?

Maybe you are not getting my point, so let me try this again - I know talking over computers can be very treacherous at times. In another post/reply here I attached a very detailed accounting of what transpired in our interview. My husband and I for one, speak to each other in three languages - last I knew that is great for the mind - my husband had problems with one of her questions because he was not quite sure how to explain the exact details of one question in particular - should nto be construed as we do not understand each other. My focus is on this every day - I do not get stuck on the fabrication ideas - that is merely a word I used to speak to all of you - does not mean I am stuck on it. I am working night and day and my hsuband is by my side - together we are working very hard to overturn this. I have read what the embassy said and I have rebutted it - the consulate chief only knows what she said - now he knows all detail by detail even my explanation of how I could see how she came up with some of her statements, but not solid proof and as he tried to give her eveidence she walked away never looking at our evidence - wrong on their part, not ours. I ca ngo through detail by detail and get this overturned - I am not worried about that - our life together is solid and we never have anyone communicate for us. No one can humor me on issues that just are not right, but I am not bitter about it either - I am very focused - my lawyer is very pleased with my progress in this matter - I have got more response then he has. As for my hsuband knowing me - he even sat down at the computer himself and sent a very detailed letter to the embassy about us and our relationship and he was very polite in that letter as well even after the way he was treated. I am not blaming the translator - I am not blaming anyone - jsut that there was miscommunication here and misunderstandings and assumptions made, not solid proof conclusions. I am addressing it everyday - it has become my 24/7 job. Your last comment about e-mails - why would my husband be sending me e-mails - we have been living together since November 2006. I am registered here and have residence papers. Another thing he could not pull out to show them.

My husband and I speak in combinations of three languages - arabic, english and french - I am fluent in english and speak some french and arabic - My husband is fluent in arabic and is getting fluent in english and speaks some french. We have been speaking for over a year - 14 months to be exact - we have been living together seven months out of that time. My current residency is in Morocco with my husband. The translator was called for one explanation because my hsuband wanted to answer the CO with no mistakes. We again, are not pointing fingers - there was misunderstandings - the opportunity was not given to provide proof - the woman asks him for proof, but walks away instead.

That's one thing you can address in that letter: consulate assumed you couldn't communicate, but you have three languages to play with. Do you have university courses or certifications in either French or Arabic? That would count as proof on your end that you have the proficiency to communicate.

Thank you - I do know that the case has been sent back for further review - it has not been denied - I have not received an actual denial - and it was just my I-129 - he said he returned the I-130 also, but this was a lie - his office has never had my I-130 petition - it is still at the NVC - I have not paid the fees for it yet. Yes - I am a USC and yes in time I know my hsuband and I will leave Morocco together and walk hand in hand into the USA. My husband will never take this journey alone and I will not either - we are together - we will stay living together side by side through all of this.

I wish I could answer this for you - the only reply that I can give is taht our attorney only works in the fields of law that govern immigration - their whole firm is only for immigration attorney's - so I am sure in some case they have to be experts in their field. They deal with immigration all over the world, so I am sure that they have some kind of statisitics going in their office that one of their assistants keeps track of. I can send him basically any CO and he will tell me if they are a good one or bad one as far as VISA's are concerned. He has been talking to us already about last resorts if we can not get this overturned at the CASA CO, then he wants us to take up residency in a nearby country to file for VISA through a more friendly CO. Here is the statement he made on another CO that is a problem in Vietnam:


Morocco is more of a problem than other jurisdictions. We had a recent case where there was a problem with the Ho Chi Minh Consulate in Vietnam, another PIA Consulate. The couple then married in Jamaica and we processed there. The Jamaican Consulate wanted to know what is going on and we told them about problems at Ho Chi Minh. The Kingston staff then contacted Ho Chi Minh directly and asked for comment. When Kingston received a reply from Ho Chi Minh, the officer forwarded it to me with his comment: "That's ridiculous!" The spousal visa was issued in Kingston.

If I get more information I will let you know.

wow... this is nuts... you are Actually Living together.. and they still need more proof??? What more do they want??

Again - please let me go over this - you are relying your statements and opinions on "just" what the CO said in her report. I have attached again the letter I wrote in rebuttal to the Consualte on what took place in the interview and what was said. Again let me state - I LIVE IN MOROCCO WITH MY HUSBAND - sorry for the caps, but jsut wanted to make that point clear. We have never been around friends that much - once in a while we will meet up with a friend, but most of our time is spent with each other and family here. We have never relied on anyone to do any type of translaiting for us. We never even had a translator for our marriage or any other type of service - the only translating done in this marraige was for the translation of arabic documents into english documents and that was done by a professional. Her statements were not true, but I am not going to continue to point that out - again I am not calling her a liar - I am saying she drew from things said to make a report. They would not give me this report for thrre weeks - it took me pushng and pushing every day to get something from them - and I was merely asking to give us every opportunity to prove our case because the opportunity was not given in the interview. Please read my detailed letter and interview before you make anymore comments of what the CO said - those were not what was said.Click to view attachment

We again, are not pointing fingers - there was misunderstandings - the opportunity was not given to provide proof - the woman asks him for proof, but walks away instead.
[/quote]



this is common.

chi

We have an attorney and the CO hear will not even speak with him even after repeated tries. He approved my rebuttal because it was very precise - he only made a few changes in it. I am continuing our fight here in Morocco while he is working on presenting case law to USCIS in the states as well as watching for the final approval of our CR1. The CO did make assumptions and turned around things said to fit their own desire to return the papers. Why does this CO do the things they do? Who knows, but they do and it does happen - yes they realize that the USCIS will have the final say in this, but it does not mean that they can't delay it and also, let us be reminded we all wonder sometimes where money comes from in the US - we the fees for the VISA are paid up front at the CO and they are not refunded if the CO says no, so if they keep making you come back - they keep getting more money for something that is not being issued.






THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH ON THAT!




Thank you for your comment!

Ambassador Thomas T. Riley - he is the only one located in Rabat

Here is the link that will give you all information, including the names of all staff contacts.

http://www.usembassy.ma/usmission/officehour.htm

I hope this helps.

Thank you - I do know that the case has been sent back for further review - it has not been denied -

the CO has 2 choices on the day of your interview>>>issue a visa or deny a visa.

you were denied a visa pending a review from USCIS. the consulate sends a letter to the service center requesting that the petition be revoked.

I have not received an actual denial - and it was just my I-129 -

you were denied a visa for your K 3 approved petition


he said he returned the I-130 also, but this was a lie - his office has never had my I-130 petition - it is still at the NVC - I have not paid the fees for it yet.

if i were you, i would keep processing the I-130.

the K 3 will expire

and the NVC will send your I-130 back to CSC for the review.

you will get a NOIR (notice of intent to revoke) for the I-130.

you will then have 30 days to respond to the NOIR

after the review if you successfully prove your case your I-130 will be returned to NVC

if you have already finsihed the processing of your I-130 there will be no delay in notifying casa

if you have not finished processing your I-130 you will have to continue doing that

NVC will notify casa they have the I-130

casa will give NVC a date for 2nd interview


please know it may take over 6 months for the CSC to even get your I-130 back. you have a long wait in front of you. this is why i suggest getting the I-130 completed as it takes time to do this. in the meantime you continue working on your case. i wanted to tell you this all privately but since it has come up, i'll share with everyone the process.

chi

That letter was approved by my attorney and it was to state specifics of the whole detailed interview from start to finsih. Let me remind you - the things I have done have gotten results, so I think I am doing just fine in my fight. My letter did not point fingers - it made facts. It also gave a little bit of a personal part of us - that shows we are human - we make errors and admitted if we did then fine - we are just asking for a chance to prove our case. I will continue doing what I am doing and I am getting results, by being diplomatic and personal at the same time - the last thing we want if for these people to forget we are human beings and so are they - if we can come to an amicable solution then it is good for all - your "opinion" is yours, but my work in this has brought results no one else has managed to get, so I must be doing something right in my letters - and tehy are approved by our lawyer before they are sent.

My husband does not need a translator - he was told taht when he went in for his interview to only answer the questions - nothing more - do not give information not asked for - he had one problem in the interview and that was just trying to explain to the CO exact steps on how he used the website to find and talk to me.

Thank you for that - I appreciate that someone sees the irony in this case.

We have an attorney and the CO hear will not even speak with him even after repeated tries.

this is new to me. most attorneys are able to speak with CO's. has he sent an e mail to the consulate?


He approved my rebuttal because it was very precise - he only made a few changes in it. I am continuing our fight here in Morocco

there is nothing you can do in Morocco. your case is no longer there. the consulate will have nothing to do with you at all. once your case is sent back which i would guess has had to occured since it has been almost a month now the consulate will do nothing. hope you understand this.

while he is working on presenting case law to USCIS in the states as well as watching for the final approval of our CR1

it is going to take at least 6 months for your case to get to CSC. does your attorney know this? your I-130 is still pending with CSC or is it at the NVC?

The CO did make assumptions and turned around things said to fit their own desire to return the papers. Why does this CO do the things they do? Who knows, but they do and it does happen - yes they realize that the USCIS will have the final say in this, but it does not mean that they can't delay it and also,

this very true. USCIS will send you a NOIR and make a decision on your response. but i caution you that the consulate can and does deny a second time.


let us be reminded we all wonder sometimes where money comes from in the US - we the fees for the VISA are paid up front at the CO and they are not refunded if the CO says no, so if they keep making you come back - they keep getting more money for something that is not being issued.

the medical is good for one year. the consulate does not charge for the 2nd interview.


chi

My husband and I have daily conversations that show many talks about our future plans and things we want for our future and our plans for that. Believe me - we even had many conversations of what we would do if VISA was never granted, so yes to your question. We talked for anywhere between 6 to 13 hours a day, everyday. The only time my hsuband and I did not communicate was when I was in the travel process to and from Morocco.

if you are in need of any further assistance you know how to conatct me

chi