Since there's been so much talk about red flags lately I was wondering what you guys think or know about your foreign spouse's friends and if they have married American women and come to the US.

Do you think that could be a red flag? I know that having family members in the US can be a red flag and the Consulate might think that the man just wants to join his family... but what about your SO's friends?

So what do you guys think? Do you think that if your spouse has friends who marry American women as well that it's something to worry about or a potential red flag?

Not a red flag - best example (maybe) are military men/women who marry foreign spouses - doesn't seem to inhibit their process. IMO

To clarify I didn't really mean a red flag with the Consulate or USCIS I meant could it be a red flag in one's relationship during any point of their engagement or marriage whether in the US or not. I'm wondering if someone whose SO has lots of friends who marry or take interest in American women if that could seem like a red flag if his friends have married the same way he has. Could that be a red flag for the American woman?

I see..my mistake.

Short answer - it certainly could be, yes but it's also possible they're friends because they like/are-married-to american women too..

I'm not talking about friends who become friends because they have an American wife in common I'm talkign about long time friends from back home who all happen to marry American women.

How would they know?

WELL, HERE'S A POSSIBLY RELATED QUESTION. I keep hearing this: Many devout Muslim men come here and get married to the person they love. Eventually, they become Americanized and begin clubbing, drinking, carousing, playing around with other women, spending money "like kid in a candy shop." Eventually divorced. (In one case, 4 of the 5 men ended up divorced that this person knew.) Especially if they marry an older woman (could it be they want a green card?) PLEASE UNDERSTAND THIS IS NOT MY OPINION, JUST WHAT I KEEP HEARING FROM MORE THAN A FEW MEN AND WOMEN WHO HAVE FRIENDS IN THE COMMUNITY SO PLEASE DON'T JUMP ME ABOUT THIS BEING MY OPINION. Just wondering if you have heard of this kind of thing happening a lot.

PS--WHAT I AM REALLY LOOKING FOR IS SUCCESS STORIES YOU HAVE HEARD INVOLVING AMERICAN WOMEN MARRYING MOROCCAN MEN. LIKE I SAID, PLEASE DON'T JUDGE ME THAT I AM CRITICIZING THE GUYS. I'M JUST WANTING TO SEE BOTH SIDES OF THIS COIN.

In his interview, they asked my husband point blank if he had friends or family in the states. In some instances I do think it could be a red flag. Just depends on the situation.

Interesting topic Sarah!

Let's see, in Jordan, Mohammed owned an internet cafe. When we went back this March, we visited the old cafe and none of his regulars are there anymore! Why? Cuz they are all now safely in America. Belal, is in California. Belal's brother, Jalal, is in Michigan. Aymen is in Georgia, Noor is in Missiouri/Texas,,(theres more, but you get my point) ,, So to answer your question about husband's friends marrying an American....yes and they are all here now including his 2 cousins.

Red flag? Don't know. We've been married almost 5 years now. I will repeat what I have said before on this forum, it's not what happens during immigration. It's how you both work at making a marriage work AFTER they get here that counts.

Jackie
"successfully gross and abnormal"

Well a long time friend of my Husbands.. Introduced us.. She got married from a Muslim Matrimonial site and came to the States... SO She got a Visa to the States. I gave it a alittle bit of thought about it being a Red Flag... But I think Family would be a BIgger one??? I have too many other red flags to worry about this one

i think it could be a red flag...but you'd have to factor all the other red flags in there to be sure. say, if that was your only red flag, i wouldn't worry if you already had a few, i would definitely begin to wonder if i haven't already!

Just to clarify because I think some people might not see what I'm asking. I'm talking about it being a red flag to the woman, the fiancee, the wife... NOT to the Consulate.

I think personally that if all of Hicham's friends had American girlfriends and were coming to the US by marrying them then I might wonder. It would seem odd to me that Hicham and all of his friends were somehow meeting American women online and that all of them eventually ended up in the US married to Americans.


To me it seems like it could be a possible red flag.

Odd? Why?

Jackie

i understood you, sarah. my response is meant towards what the woman would think if she already knew in her heart they had red flags...then also this came up. i'd seriously begin to wonder at that point.

I know YOU did

It would make me wonder because it would seem unusual to me that somehow by chance Hicham and all of his best friends started dating American women online it would seem like they all had a plan to come to the US together.It would make me question his intentions and whether he was interested in me or interested in joining his friends in the US.

Even tho Mohammeds friends all came here, they really don't keep in touch much. They are spread from one coast to the other. Each has established lives with their wives and I don't think there was a master plan to all meet up here. They all did come for a better life than they had and that has been accomplished. What 'red flag'? Who would not want to better their living conditions and start a new life in America? I don't see that as a negative at all. Sounds like a common sense move.

Jackie

It seems to be a good move but not at the expense of women-when clearly sometimes that is the only reason for getting the visa is to come to America, not for building a lasting relationship with their SO. There is no love in the picture. I am pissed because my fiance bumped int someone that was geting a visa and he was extremely disrespectful when speaking about his SO.

I don't think any one thing is a red flag in isolation. If your spouse had a lot of friends who had married Americans, but that was because they had all met a lot of American exchange students at university, that would seem to be a lot less red flaggy than someone whose friends type up his e-mails for him. Are his friends all happily married, or do they suddenly develop irreconcilable differences right at the two-year mark? Are there other red flags?

But a successful marriage can develop out of a lot of things, so it's hard to say. It's got to be the case that marrying someone because she (or he) is American has to be a large part of it in some of these relationships, but that doesn't mean the person's getting used or that the foreign spouse intends to leave.

Sarah-- I think it could be. My husband's friend was always whining (as you can already see I didn't like him much LOL) about how he wanted to have something like my husband and I had. Next field season, he "fell in love" with one of my friends and despite my warning for her to be cautious (I didn't say I thought he was slimy! i just said for her to be careful!), they decided to become engaged. In about 3 months the magic wore off for him and he basically abandoned her.

point being, he wanted what his friend had but had no clue about the actual difficulty of hwo this worked, nor the patience or ability to actually deal with it.

This was kind of a red-flag-by-association for me Obviously not about my own husband, but about his (not now) friend. She mentioned later that he seemed kind of obsessed with me and our (my husband and my) relationship. It was apparantly a red-flag she had ignored

I KNOW this is not exactly what you were asking, but I am just saying, if it was me in that situation, i would wonder. It could be a red flag. Just depends on the circumstances of our relationship. if we met like my husband and I met now, I wouldn't wonder. But if it was through some random way.. then I would. i hope that made sense!!

I've been wondering about this topic for a while... My husband came out of nowhere and started talking to me. Then later on when I was online, someone from Fes added me to his friends... I asked my husband, he said, he didn't know the guy. Yes, I chatted with him once, he asked my age, where I'm from and stuff. I asked the same and that made me wonder what's going on. Also, on the web-cam I saw lots of guys in cyber caffee; then I saw that in person, while checking my e-mail and stuff in Morocco. Just a few girls and lots of guys!

Yes, I asked myself that same question lots of times. His aunt said once that she wishes her son would find someone like me and get married with her. I think, she wasn't talking about me as me, but me as an American. They also have relatives in Canada, but none in U.S.

Last year when I read that article that someone posted here about Moroccan young guys looking for a foreign wife, I got a little upset - I just didn't know that it was up to that point. I did read in a book about Morocco, that young people in Morocco have no future!!! So, yes, they're trying to get out of there!

By now I think many of his friends are in U.S., but that doesn't tell me anything about MY HUSBAND! I believe him, only when I think about the future - I'm clueless! I asked him a few times, and he said, why do you think, I'd live that long? Well, we never know, right?

I actually wanted to ask women who have been married to Moroccan men for at least few years if anything's changed. Not because I'm curious, but because .... you never know. The only thing I can say in my deffence (about my doubting him) is that if I can't trust my husband, I guess, I can't trust anybody!

People are just people, nobody's perfect! I just wish I knew more ! I know it's not easy having doubts, even the slightest ones on this subject! I think, it's normal!!!

Girls, please give us some positive feedback!

i think what this is all boiling down to is this: if a lot of the SO's friends are meeting and marrying american's, should we be concerned that our SO has unlterior motives in the relationship? i'm sure we've all heard the green card line. but if we truly believed it, we wouldn't be here on VJ. it's a question that each person has to answer for themselves about their SO. does it concern me that my fiance has friends that have come here on a fiance visa? does it concern me that he has friends that are amidst online relationships with american women? for me, the answer is no, it doesn't. i know my fiance and i know his heart and i love him for it. when everything is said and done, chances are, those friends are not going to be around when everyday life in the marriage settles in. so who cares if two people meet because one of them was following the crowd? it's what happens after the meeting that counts. could it be that i'm a hopeless romantic?

"it's what happens after the meeting that counts. could it be that i'm a hopeless romantic?"

No, you're not the only one!

I think that everyone here is hopelessly in love with their fiance's and husbands. Unfortunately as they say love is blind and sometimes people become irrational when they're so in love that they don't think there might be any signs of problems or potential problems in their relationship. I guess you just never know what the man's intentions might be. I think red flags are called red flags for a reason and if I had several of them then I would personally be worried.

Ok heres my opinion on this... you know what they say about opinions.... in todays society alot of people meet online, whether it be across the country or across the world. And having been in Morocco honestly there isnt a plethera of opportunity there, so it makes sense to me that the men there look elsewhere. When I was there Mohammed took me to the cyber his friend owned to introduce me. There were NO women there. Alot of that I think is that its ok for a muslim man to marry a christian woman but society wise not the other way around. What alot of people do I think though is rush in... you know meet, oh he loves, engaged, bring him here. No matter where it is you have to take time to get to know each other. The new does wear off. Mohammed and I have 2 years now... and as you all know it isnt easy to find something to talk about day in day out when your in the same house much less staring at each other on a screen. But we do it not so he can come to America, but so we can be together...here if he gets a visa, there if he doesnt. So red flag for friends that come here? No it doesnt do it for me... it doesnt matter what came before... it matters what is now and what you make of it in the future.

love may very well be blind. but when you think of all the other things in this world you could be blinded by( everthing from hate to your little brothers BB gun) i think love is the most worthwhile. and sarah is right, you can never know for a fact what a man's intentions might be, that goes for men everywhere, but isn't that where trust comes in? i'm the type that trusts until i have a reason not to, my best friend doesn't trust until she feels it's been earned. there's nothing to say who's right and who's wrong. i'm afraid of missing out on something wonderful by not trusting and she's afraid of getting hurt by trusting. it's the classical is the glass half full or half empty thing. am i getting too far off track here? if i am, humor me. it's 1 am and i'm in the middle of a 12 hour shift! oh, and chas, what do they say about opinions? LOL

I can answer on opinions i just sent mr mckeever a letter and in there i mentioned opinions. I told him they formed the opinion to deny us based on only a few minutes and few questions, it would have been just as easy to form a good opinion based on evidence they never looked at, in other words its a opinion just as easy to make good as bad. When you base on CONCRETE facts and papers then it stops being just an opinion but a fact and this fact they should be able to state why the deny. (If indeed they have reason of fact and not just their opinion)

I don't understand this post. We already established that the CO reviews cases before the interview and since you already addressed your red flags in your original petition that means they must have seen that before the interview, right? Do you think that your red flags can't possibly constitute a denial?

See, this is what I'm confused about. The whole Casa supposedly not being able to return a petition for reasons that were known when USCIS approved it thing. If Casa sees a large age difference, for example, as a red flag, then they can not use the age difference as a factor that helps them identify potential fraud? To me that doesn't make sense since, well the age difference is of course known by USCIS simply from the birthdates of the beneficiary and petitioner. Is that supposed to mean that Casa has to be "blind" towards any age difference in their assessment of the validity of the relationship?

I'm starting to think that the statement limiting the Consulate's ability to return petitions is being misinterpreted.

Having read what chiquita posted (thanks chi!), it seems that there's a lot of wriggle room in the clause that says 'what a reasonable person' would think constitutes fraud. It's clear that USCIS doesn't what the consulates returning petitions unless they have proof, but it also seems that the 'reasonable person' standard could be construed as proof.

On the larger question: 'The consulate can't return it to USCIS if the information was known to USCIS' sounds a false note to me. The petition approval stage consists in proving that you've met in two years and that you're free to marry and you're compliant with IMBRA. That's why it's really easy to get an NOA2. But that's a really low hurdle, so it doesn't look like they'd have the information necessary to make a judgment on anything but the most blatant fraud.

So the standard's supposed to be 'anything new in the interview', but that's a pretty broad brush. Is it anything 'new', such that if you say in the petition 'I know we've only met once, don't speak the same language, his cousin set us up and I'm thirty years older and a divorcée and we married on our first visit', that would take care of it?

I think not, so I'm thinking we don't understand exactly what counts as 'new.'

From the application they know the age, the differences of religion, the divorces, the number of times and length of meeting, they see pictures, they see phone bills, letters, etc....then at interview they can judge the speech, the chance to give "new" further information and if they dont look then what....?

All I'm saying is that the NOA2 process is really easy to get through, and it can't just be that whatever's in the original petition means the consulate has to accept it without question, and I suspect 'new' information can mean pretty much whatever DOS thinks it means. Eligible for an NOA2 isn't the same as eligible for a visa, or else there'd be no need for an interview.

brdokiegrl, can you try to get a letter like aicha did?

I agree.

I think what part of the problem is, and it certainly is unfortunate for all those that get caught up in the middle, that Morocco, for lack of a better term, is just coming into its own as a high fraud consulate. While the Philippines and Russia, for example, have had fraud investigation practices in place for years, in Morocco it's a recent phenomenon. I betcha that the number of fiance and spousal visa petitions that Casa has seen over the past 5 years has been increasing exponentially, not wholly but largely due to our new age of internet relationships.

All in all, Casa just can't deal with the volume and they may be resorting to what might be seen as shady practices. However, for now at least, it's "working". They have no incentive to change.

With the example you gave (I know we've only met once, don't speak the same language, his cousin set us up and I'm thirty years older and a divorcée and we married on our first visit), I think that they're not even interested in what other evidence you have to prove your relationship. There is enough circumstantial evidence for fraud to outweigh any rebutting evidence of a valid relationship, so they just send it on back to USCIS as has become their procedure.

If Casa isn't following DOS guidelines, unless a better solution is provided for them, the practice will continue as is.

Yeah. There seem to be two separate issues here, too; a) whether a petition should be held at DoS pending more evidence and fraud research, and b ) whether it should be returned to USCIS. So the options aren't 'approve' or 'return.' There's supposed to be a middle step.

It seems that the guidelines for the latter are quite strict, but that Casablanca doesn't have the resources (or maybe the inclination) to deal with it, amd so they're reading 'fraud' as broadly as possible in cases with a lot of flags. The memo chi posted sounds like interdepartmental squabbling, where DoS wants USCIS not to approve them in the first place if they have all those flags and USCIS wants to adhere to the minimal NOA2 standard we know, and both want to keep their processing times down.

And strangely enough (or maybe not strange, I don't know), from that memo it seems that DHS is not as concerned as Casa is about issuing visas to suspected fraudulent beneficiaries.

Im still trying to get any answer out of them, so far nothing. Will be faxing another letter today asking for a statement of reasons and also including letters from family and friends, at this point this is all i have i can do, senators are also made aware of...but for us its still soon only will be two weeks Wednesday>Anyone can have issues, but if denied give the concrete reason so it can be addressed, i think thats what most are just asking for.

THose with the age, that cant be changed so what i guess prove its not a problem to anyone, not family or friends. So does this become a issue to the embassy, they arent going to be living in the house. Religion again explain it is not a issue for those concerned, Meeting on the internet, in todays times what do you think the percent is that DIDNT? most cant travel all over the world to meet new people. If its money, again these issues should be able to document time, places, reason, if its not a habit but one time, who did that affect? Another might be divorces, ok people get married they get divorced having no bearing on the current relationship and those papers are all given in the application again. Talking at interview in English not sure how all that works with translators since Ahmed knows English and is educated which he took his degree papers translated but they were not looked at. Ive seen reasons from others of not being pretty enough, being American, so i guess if every woman is very nice looking and NOT american there is better chance, who at that embassy should be allowed to decided how another sees their SO wether fat, skinny, short, tall, black, white I dont know the answers...I know ahmeds brother married someone older and a catholic but he went to Italy so i guess they dont care there...maybe soon we will know an answer.

Yes they see these things, but what do they see when they look at these things. Maybe not the same thing we do. We are talking about someone looking at the evidence we put in front of them and ask them to make a judgement.

My husband saw one photo of a couple tht was denied the visa. His first reaction was this is not a good family. I was shocked. I thought maybe he was judging them based on some personal idea of how his family works and called him on it. He wasn't however. He was simply looking at the behavior and dress of the people in the photo and made a judgement based on Moroccan cultural standards. He went as far as to say he didn't beive this was the finace's family in the photo.

with the consulate seeing 1000s of petitons, what do you think experience has taught them.

I think the biggest lesson learned so far if for couples going into this process, before sending in the USCIS petition is to take care how you outline evidence.

Age alone can't be a factor. there are too many of us who have age gaps and get approved.

All most are asking i think is, at time to deny (send back) whatever....state the reason..how hard can that be?? take that same paper they give them and WRITE the reason, then it can be addressed. We deny because (prob of age, religion, length to meet, way they met, divorces, money( it could go on and on) just state the reason.

I posted this on another thread:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...st&p=839741

I'm curious as to whether the non-immigrant K visas, as opposed to the immigrant family visas (CR1/IR1), are refused more often. The research I'm doing on that seems to make it more likely. I know of a couple of immigrant petitions that were refused, but, overall, what has been the trend in MENA?

thanks again

I don't know where to get the overall ME/NA statistics.... but from our non-scientific sampling of VJers in the Cheerleading thread, you can see that far more K-1s/K-3s have been sent back than CR-1s/IR-1s. (However, this may simply be indicative of a far greater volume of K-1s/K-3s in the first place -- I don't have info on that.)

It's not just whether the CO is personally affected or personally approves of the relationship. If that were the standard, denials of most consulates would be around 75% because there are a lot of non-traditional relationships out there.

The embassy doesn't care if you have a miserable marriage or if the couple isn't suited for each other, but they do care if the USC is being taken for a ride by someone who is just using them to get into the country. They don't know you and your partner, and they can only go by how likely it is that someone with all of those flags will turn out to be saying when her partner takes off: "I guess I should have suspected because of A, B, and C."

I really hope you get specifics soon, because it's hard to know what triggered it. But imagine a hypothetical fraudulent couple with your set of flags, as impersonal as you can. What's different between your situation and theirs? That's what needs to be brought out.

Thanks for that, WOM. I'm looking for general stats, but it does seem that non-immigrant visas are refused more overall than immigrant visas. Trying to find a correlation.

To give my opinion on the original question yes and no. I would not personally be ecstactic if I knew my fiance had a bunch of friends who all came to the US and they all hung out in the same cyber cafe. Would I not continue a relationship with him? No, but I would address it. Luckily his english is very good and like I have in the past I'd talk to him very seriously about it. My ex-husband was from Morocco. He lied about alot of things. His attitude changed. He didn't keep any of his promises and his focus became saving money to open his store back in Morocco! After I separated from him, I found he had about 10 friends, all from Morocco here in NJ. He also had many friends from Taza that immigrated over right after. Not that the friends had anything to do with him. I don't think it should be an automatic red flag no. I mean people have their preferences right? For example, I'm american, but I've never dated many american men, I like different cultures. So would it be a red flag for an american guy to be in a relationship with me, you betcha. Doesn't mean my fiance has anything to worry about, I love him. So the same should apply.

Bottom line ladies, the romance - its amazing. But we're all grown folks here and I'm sure we have all had to just sit down and have those talks, because it is a reality. My fiance was very understanding, not at first, but he came to see my point. At first he though I didn't trust him. I don't him of course not lol. Trust is earned over time. So we talked about every scenario and maybe its because we were friends first I don't know, but its helpful to talk about it.

Whether or not is is a red flag for you per se it's up to you and your relationship. Not every Arab, African, Moroccan or Jordanian man is out for a green card - but there are bad apples in every bunch. I know one couple that got married (they were both traditional muslim) and her husband wants flat out "in love with her." He respected her and though she would make a good wife under Islamic standards. Years later they are still married with kids and he loves her to death. So she/he had to decide what is and what isn't a red flag for themselves.

I don't think there is a person on in this forum that can say not for a split second they wondered. Even if it was just wow, how did I meet such a wonderful guy that lives thousands of miles away. The key is to talk about it no matter how big or small and be REAL about what you are feeling and what you will and will not tolerate.

As for the consulates, yes they should absolutely continue to do their jobs. However, let people know why they are not being approved. Even if it is something like age, which while we may not feel its fair, at least it is a reason and we know what we're up against. But to deny without cause, it's just not fair and I can only imagine how helpless one might feel. It doesn't matter what the damn it red flag was, age, looks, religion whatever! Someone's heart is at stake, so just tell them why, it might be hurtful but at least they know!

Personally, I would have concerns.

Is it a red flag for the woman? Hard to say. My husband doesn't have any other friends here that have married an american woman, except for 1 or 2 that married one after arriving in the US. On the other hand, he does have a few friends that have started chatting with American women now. Is it for the visa? Is it to get out of the US? Is it to find love? Or could it be all of the above?

When I first met my husband I believed he was after a green card, and I played with him relentlessly. I regret that now because I was mistaken about his intentions. Do I believe he wanted out of Morocco? Actually yes I do. BUT, was he looking for a green card, or was he looking for a real thing? Now I know for a fact. He wanted love, and he found it with me. We are incredibly happy together, and he could just as easily take off now and leave me high and dry, but he doesn't.

What I find a shame is the women that go blindly into the relationship. Their desperation for a man shuts their eyes off to all of the little clues. There are all sorts of clues to show a fake, and you must be open to those clues, and ready to leave a man, no matter what your heart wants to see and hear. The thing is, it is in all marriages that you need to look for this, not just ones to a foreigner. There are users here in the US as well.

As for the consulate. I believe that they review the cases well in advance. I think their minds are made up in advance as well. What they do try to do is to find another reason, besides age difference, to send back the petitions. But whether or not they find those other reasons, they have their standard reasons (which apply to almost everyone). Short courtship, large gaps of time apart, etc. These apply to the majority. But to those with a significant age they will use these as enough evidence to return petitons. Too bad they don't take a better look at the evidence these couples have. In our case, as would have been with many others, this is the very same evidence that got our case reaffirmed. Can you imagine if the consulates took an additional 5 minutes to look at the proof? It could save not only the petitioner and applicant alot of time and grief, but the USCIS, NVC, and yes, the consulate itself, many many hours of additional reviews. The system is not working. What is the answer? I don't know, but it isn't working.