Just a quick inquiry...could we have a clarification over what should be staying in these forums regarding the actual immigration process (if anything)?

Thanks all!

Good question. For instance, if a question is asked that is specific to a certain consulate - wouldn't that need to stay in that country's regional board (instead of the foreign embassy forum)?

I know the idea was if there was any 'grey' area, to leave it where it was originally posted (at least for the new K1 subforum). But to me, some of these are not 'grey areas at all - if its specifically a consulate based question, it should stay where those going through that specific consulate are going to be reading. Just my .02.

Not all beneficiaries and petitioners read the forum for their specific consulate. It seems a waste to me if good threads remain in a specific forum.

Besides, moving leaves the link in the old forum. Everybody can still read and post to the thread.

True, but if we move ALL consulate based questions to the foreign embassy forum, its going to fill up pretty fast and not replied to threads will 'fall' off (as will the 'leftover' thread indicating the original was moved).

Also, perhaps the OP put it in the consulate specific forum for a reason - they wanted the opinion of people that post there - not responses from people who are not going through that consulate and therefore will likely just end up giving wrong information (but post in the thread just because the question is in the foreign embassy forum and they know the answer from their consulate's experience).

i would think if it has anything to do with a specific location's nuances, i would leave it in the Reg Forum, for example - dealing with the local medical exam providers, or a consulate's specific requirements. Posts such as "when can I get my EAD" or "how can I get my <insert state> driver's license" should be moved.

If that's the case, then the 'purpose' of the Regional Forums on the Main Forums page needs redefined.

I just now saw that after all this time. We certainly don't seem to use it for soley those reasons, do we?

Well, Capn can correct me if I'm wrong, but if I recall these forums were originally created to give folks a 'hang out' place. I think part of the intent was to make it easier to locate members sharing the same consulate and to share some consular experiences, but not for that to be where all that information 'lived'.

I tend to believe the Regional Forums are somewhat 'clique-ish'. Again, Capn will correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt the traffic in those forums is very heavy. It's my opinion that the general population of VJ is well served if immigration questions are kept to the immigration forums, rather than the General Discussion forums.

But, hey - that's my opinion and I will do as directed by Captain!

it has been a topic of debate for quite awhile at least in the MENA forum. I have always been a proponent of posting immigration related subjects in their proper forums, but after looking at some of the other Reg Forums, would it really be helpful to move all those topics to the upper forums? I surely don't know. I just think this is an Immigration site foremost, and given the small nuances of certain locations, it is helpful to have the Reg Forum to turn to vs. wading through pages of unrelated threads to get to a *nuance* that very few are dealing with.

i just peeked into the UK Reg forum it seems there is quite a bit of immigration-related discussion in there (and even bit of the newer threads have been moved!). Lots to do with medical stuff, etc.

I guess I dont know, I thought as well the Reg forums were also to hang out while the process was going on, but thought better of it when dealing with issues we have seen that are MENA specific. (like consular returns).

You mean like issues that are 'more difficult' or - specific to that consulate because of culture?

I guess that's the type of 'immigration' questions I felt were really pertinent to a specific forum. Perhaps even a question or a situation you really didn't want spread all over VJ, but needed the opinions of peers who were more likely to have been in the same situation.

Regarding 'nuances' - like how much the medical costs, etc. - I really feel those things belong in the Consulate Forum. I think they have a better chance of being read up there.

LOL - There's been a lot of talk about the 'newbies' being 'overly green' and asking the same questions over and over again - maybe if they spent more time in the immigration forums and less in the regional, we wouldn't be seeing so much of this effect? *just wonderin*

I've wondered the same.

yes. If it is specific to that country or region leave it there. I am not sure if this is a perfect solution.



I agree. General Questions should be in the respective forum. Things that are very specific to there and general regional chat can be in the regional area.

Also a valid point.

One of the first questions I posted on here was about whether tax returns needed to be taken to K-1 interviews at London. I probably posted it, in my newbie-ish way, in the K1 forum or somewhere else totally wrong (don't think I'd discovered the UK forum at that point anyway), but it ended up in the Embassy & Consulate forum, anyway. The whole point of my question was pretty much 'I know they're listed as evidence of support that you CAN take, but do you DEFINITELY need them?' (I forget why I was so worried about this, but never mind!) - and I was told by several people that yes, I would definitely definitely definitely need tax returns, no matter what the Embassy's site etc said. Of course, these answers were based on people's experiences at other consulates in other countries - but my attempts to establish whether they were required in LONDON were falling on deaf ears - until Devilette came along and confirmed that no, London does NOT insist on seeing tax returns. I think a couple of people then proceeded to tell her that they are definitely required 'at the interview'...

Anyway, the point of all that rambling was that I think in a lot of cases it might be better to leave some interview (etc) related questions in the regional forums if that's where they're posted, because it can be very, very easy for people to give completely wrong advice with only the best of intentions. Not that it would have mattered in that case, but in the reverse situation, if someone who'd gone through London went around telling everyone that, say, there's no need to worry too much about taking evidence of an ongoing relationship because they're not even going to bother looking at it (as was my experience, and I'm sure a lot of other people's, at interview), it would be much more of a problem. Not to mention that, especially if you're a bit new round here, it can feel pretty awkward to keep piping up with 'thanks, but are you SURE about that??' until someone with consulate-specific experience/information comes along. Even stuff like that 'does the beneficiary need to bring a copy of the petitioner's previous marriage certificate to the interview?' question that keeps cropping up on the UK forum - I haven't seen anyone say they've actually been asked for it, but the occasional 'they definitely want it in Montreal!' response can confuse things a bit and lead to a bit of panic. I think with questions like that, where you really, really want to know what happens at YOUR consulate, and your consulate only, posting in the general consulate discussion forum is only going to lead to confusion and well-meaning misinformation, and threads disappearing off the front page before they've been seen by someone who might actually be able to give a semi-reliable answer.

Although of course, discussion about interviews, medicals etc definitely does not fit in with the purpose of the regional forums listed on the main page...

Oops. This post wasn't meant to be quite that long - sorry.

LOL.

Define 'specific' and 'very specific'.

If more people read the Immigration Forums why wouldn't you want regional information in there?

*shrugs*

Seems to me like the Regional Forums are just becoming segregated communities people don't want to venture out of. I think that's a shame.

Well, in some cases like you said people may (while waiting on the immigration process) want to hang out with people from the same region or country. In that regards the regional forums were made just for that. So having a little space for people to hang out with people of like minds can be a good thing for that.

That's kind of how I look at things really. I'd rather have experience from someone who has been through that actual embassy, rather than 15 other members answering who have been through various other embassies with different protocols.

Just my $0.02c for what it's worth!

yup and I am right there with you Mags, however i do see the other side as well. I can see posting about needing the affidavit of support in some consulates where others do not require it. Posts with the best intentions by members going through a different consulate could be misleading, and require many more posts to work it out.

Right now there are nuance threads in MENA such as *red flags* and *consular returns*. Those are absolutely necessary for people navigating through MENA. Sure its helpful for others as well who may run into challenges, but the sad fact is, these consulates are well documented in making these cases difficult. I would be against things such as these being moved.

Unfortunately I do think many questions get re-asked due to member's unaware of the regional discussions. You're right though Becs, many *regionals* do not venture out of those areas.

Yup, valid points too. It's a really grey area isn't it?

I think so.

To me, points like how much medicals cost at a consulate; how to fill out forms for a consulate; and simpler rhetorical questions like that belong in the Consulate Forum. Not the Regional. Purely because they ARE more simplistic and because more readers from that Consulate might find the answer there, rather than the Regional Forum.

Specific issues (such as what Laura refers to - and for example of London, the ability at that consulate to 'self sponsor') belong, IMO, in the Regional Forum.

Why do I feel that way? I guess because I recall this board before the Regional Forums were created. I believe the friendships made and the knowledge base was broader when when we didn't have a 'neighborhood' to go to.

It did create issues of having to sift through and find members from your consulate (if you needed that info). And members did post advice in threads they 'shouldn't have' - but they still do that now! LOL

I know none of us want to split hairs with this issue, but it seems confusing. Unless we just all agree to have slightly different points of view, move what we feel should be moved, and trust each others judgments. I personally am unclear on how Captain feels about this issue (sorry Captain but some of what you say seems contradictory) and there indeed may be no real place to draw a line and change grey to black and white.

And frankly, since 'thread moving' leaves a link behind, I don't really see a big problem.

I have a custom feature that I may roll out in the next few weeks that may help with this. The feature is pretty unique and will make finding and communicating with people from your region even easier :-). Expect a beta release of this soon!

And you guys are right, this is a gray area with no clear solution except that when there is an obviously misplaced or general thread that can be moved.

My own view is that the Regional areas were created for non-immigration issues - things like travel, tourism, culture, a place for people from each area to have general discussions. Immigration issues are best not served there, because while it may be true that there needs to be a place for exchange of details about specific consular processing, experiences etc, having them take place in the Regional areas means that many people don't find them. Since such things are of crucial importance to everyone going through the system, and since we want to encourage users to read for themselves whenever possible, consulate related immigration matters really should be in the defined Embassy/Consulate topic area in the immigration part of the site, where regional sub-topic areas could be replicated for specific consulate discussions perhaps.

This would allow the general regional area to return to it's intended purpose, and help keep VJ more focussed and organized.

I agree that the regional forums were 'created' for the purpose Andy stated, but reality is that is not solely how they're being used now.

And as I stated before - asking a London specific question which is subsequently answered wrongly by Montreal or Phils filers is incredibly frustrating not to mention potentially misleading. What if you posted the question, got an answer that sounded acceptable only you failed to realize the poster was going through Montreal - you then left and followed their instructions, didn't come back and check your thread until after the fact. Could cause you some issues that otherwise would not have happened if your question had been answered by another London filer.

The fact the Regional areas have become used for things different than originally anticipated tends to show that we didn't structure them correctly. It's certainly true that to have a London question answered with potentially inaccurate information from another consulate is frustrating (and dangerous), but there's nothing preventing that in the regional discussions, within which most countries (unlike the UK) don't have a specific area of their own.

What I would propose is to create the same (or rather similar) regional sub-topics in the Embassy/Consulate area as exist in the Regional topic at present, so that immigration questions relating to regions, countries and consulate procedures and processing specifics can be answered in the context of the immigration-specific area of the site and thus be visible to everyone, leaving the current regional topic areas for the more 'off topic' purpose for which they were intended. It is not as if creating new sub-topic areas is going to alter the amount of posting traffic, just concentrate the content in the places it needs to be, and help develop a more consistent structure for the site.

I think that latter point is somewhat salient, given the sheer volume of threads being moved on an almost daily basis. If nothing else, it shows we haven't got the structure right just yet, and that people aren't necessarily using the right resources when they visit here. After all, if we were to want to pin guides etc that relate to consular processing, we would typically not do so in the Regional areas but in the Embassy/Consulate areas instead. If we are comfortable with posters posting immigration-related content about consulates elsewhere, then we have to accept that they likely aren't going to see the pinned information, and neither may a lot of others.

Tracy, you and I agree on most things, but on this point I'd like to say....

Whatever happened to accountability for one's own case?

I agree with you - as you know, I'd never ask a question and take anyone's answer at face value. I'm going to research it as much as I can myself, THEN ask questions and weigh the responses as necessary.

My point was more to the type that we are familiar with around here - who want to be spoonfed everything, which unfortunately is starting to become a 'norm' of sorts.

We can't stop some folks from having a microwave mentality, unfortunately.

We can try and help the rest by having the discussions where it best serves the majority.

I understand that, too. But not just the spoonfed folks, but someone who generally does not do that but posts there for a quick answer (as they are about to send out a form or whatnot) and gets wrong information.

Besides that, I guess I don't see the problem with leaving a thread where it was originally posted (if posted in a regional forum), particulary if it is very consulate specific or may help another poster. (Yes it leaves a link to the old thread, but those fall off the main page quite quickly in the original forum.) Unless its just blatently in the wrong place.

What other ways can we use to encourage people to post in the 'right' place to start with?

The problem is three-fold. Firstly that if posted in a place that isn't intended to be an immigration discussion area there's a real danger that it doesn't get answered, or seen, by people who might want to answer or see it because they're not looking there, while it may well be answered by others from the same area who don't have a clue but answer anyway. Secondly, that it may not be all that specific to the consulate just that 'practice' seems to be to post consular questions there, in which case it might be answerable by more seasoned users looking for consular questions in the right place, and thirdly, that if it has to be moved, it leaves two places to look and results in users seeing less coherence to the structure and more confusion than necessary. Oh, and fourth of the three reasons, it draws users away from the places where common information on the processes, procedures, documentation and forms, and general advice are to be found, which means we are actually making it harder for users to get informed and prepared, not easier. Oh heck, and ON EDIT, the fifth of three reasons is that it requires far more constant attention to ensure threads are in the right place than would be needed if the structure was right in the first place.

If members' posts tend to be derived, initially, from one thought that when articulated within a first post then evolve into a much more complex series of questions, there's a good chance that a thread would end up in the wrong place. I don't know if this is even possible, or if it would be of value, either, but how about considering implementation of a widget of sorts, part of the posting screen that pops up (like the spell check used to) prior to the post/thread being made live that queries "Is this in the best forum?" and has a drop down feature like at the base of each page, that could be toggled to place the thread in a more appropriate one? The thread creator would have to confirm that the best forum has been selected.......

By having the right place to begin with, in a logical structure, clearly labeled.

meauxna,

By changing a few of the forum names. Several that come to immediately to mind:

K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Process & Procedures General Discussion --> I-129f Petition For Fiance(e) Processing By USCIS

K-3 Spouse Visa General Discussion --> I-129f For Spouse Processing By USCIS

The Foreign Embassy and Consulate General Discussion --> K Visa Application Processing By DOS Consulates

Might also have the added benefit of getting people to understand that petitions are not visa applications or visas, and visa applications and visas are not petitions. Not holding my breath, though.

I think I'll also kick in a suggestion for a new forum (or 2), also named so as to hopefully improve understanding:
- Sponsorship For K-Visa Applicants - Meeting The Public Charge Provisions Of The Law (no mention of I-134 intentional)
- Sponsorship For Immigrant Visa And Adjustment Of Status Applicants - I-864 Affidavit Of Support

Yodrak

I've been thinking about the whole petition/visa argument as well.

Re: the above, what is the significant difference that would keep the 2 above fora from being one and the same?

Excellent suggestions, Yodrak.

meauxna,

All of the I-130 questions that show up in the K3 forum, some of which are reasonably there but some of which really would have been better posted in the Immigrant Visa forum. Anyway, we don't need to add to the confusion of fiance(e)s by having I-130 posts in the same forum with them, and they also don't need all of the 'which way should I go' angst of the K3 people.

There is overlap between K1 and K3 at the petition stage, just as there is overlap between K3 and immigrant visa at the petition stage. At the time I was not in favor of splitting the spouse visa forum into K3 and immigrant visa, but now I'm ambivalent about it. There's no clean way to segregate a lot of issues cleanly, the choices are subjective.

Yodrak

The only problem with that is that it presupposes that users, particularly those who come here for the first time and right at the start of the journey, have knowledge of what an I-129F is, or the USCIS, DOS etc, or what type of visa is involved. For us, as seasoned users, these terms and the overall procedure are so familiar that we take such knowledge pretty much for granted, but a new user trying to find their first answers and take their first step, that would be a pretty unfriendly and unhelpful set of areas to land on.

I also think that users don't so much confuse petitions and visas as see the whole thing as one process, which in many ways it is. Expecting people to understand the difference if they don't, or can't means that we shouldn't be developing solutions to things based on that understanding, otherwise we just make the problem worse.

I think we need to keep the language simple and the expectations of users low.

I have not read all the posts above yet but I wanted to comment that it is funny how the site goes in a full circle in terms of organization. At one point the site was organized by things like I-129f, I-130, etc then it was separated by benefits and other things, etc.

Another way that may help is to change the Visa Forums name by adding the term "Filing" to them, ex: K-3 Spouse Visa Filing General Discussion"; also... "Embassy and Consulate Visa Processing General Discussion", etc Just a thought.

Originally the site was organized much more simply than that of course because all the members were in the K-1 system. Then a few started asking about DCF and that grew out of it, then that broadened into K-3 when that visa type started. Then each process began to get broken up into segments to try and rationalize things, with additional areas for specialist help such as waivers etc when originally those had been handled in the specific visa type area before, because as much as there may be commonality in (for example) waiver filings, it was initially thought that questions relating to them were best viewed in the context of the process of the case as a whole.

To my thinking, it's an issue associated with that question recently brought up about the orientation of the site toward a focus either on cases or information. We started out as the first, and the structural approach of keeping everything in a cohesive whole was thusly consistent with the needs and expectations of the user, and the number of discrete discussion areas were fewer and broader. Then we began to grow informational content such as the FAQs and guides and see ourselves more as the provider of information than the discussion of cases/issues/problems, and the current structure is still evolving into one more consistent with that function than than the first.

To my observation, users do seem more interested in the case-based function than the informational, which would tend to explain why we may be moving, or need to consider moving, back to a less fragmented structure and a more logical and consistent one. But it may also be because we have typically been rather more reactive than proactive when considering structural and organizational issues, and find ourselves now at a point where we recognize the need to assist in the process of changing culture and climate here a little as we recently discussed, and see that reviewing structure and organization in that light is a positive step.

Andy,

Yes it does presuppose that a first-time visitor to the site has heard of some basic terms such as I-129f, I-130, K1, K3, etc. And my observation is that virtually all of them have heard of these terms. They're just not always clear on what they mean, and I think that VJ should try to provide that clarification right from the start.

Most first-timers already know that while I-129f and K1 or I-129f and K3 are closely related they are not always readily interchangeable terms. I think that my suggestions, or something similar, will plant a seed in their minds, and if the seed does not grow on it's own it may at least cause them to ask question that they don't otherwise. Either way, it nudges them in the direction of becoming more educated about what they're getting themselves involved in and will result in less rather than more confusion along the road to developing understanding.

The initial suggestions came quickly off the top of my head, I'm sure they can be improved on to make them both more 'user friendly' and more true to the process. How about I-129f Petition For Fiance(e) Processing By USCIS - 1st step to K1, for example?

As for encouraging low expectations, I think that does the community a dis-service.

Yodrak

The point I was making in terms of discussion area titles is that they should be as free from 'jargon' as it is possible to be in order that their purpose is as clear as it could possible be.

And as for 'encouraging low expectations', you know better than to interpret what I said as meaning that in any sense. I said we need to keep our expectations low because only THAT way do we organize the site and it's contents in sufficiently clear terms that we can reasonably expect all users to be able to find their way around and use the resources here. The alternative is to expect behavior that is not realistic from our users and thus find that our best laid plans are more likely to miss their mark.

Andy,

Nothing in the titles I suggested was jargon - it was all appropriate terminology, which should be encouraged. Jargon should be discouraged.

Thanks for the clarification on the 'low expectations' comment. I was surprised when I read it, and perhaps I should have realized that I was mis-understanding given the source.

Yodrak

I went through several of the regional forums today. It seems like many are using it for immigration related issues and a bit of regional chit-chat mixed in between. Is it at all possible the site has just gotten too big & broad to house all consulate related info in one forum? Is Andy's idea to subforum the Embassy forum the solution to that? I see exactly what people are saying, but just remain skeptical that that one forum could remain organized enough to house it all.

That is why we created the regional area in part to allow regional chatter to be separated. People may interject other issues but in the context of a regional discussion.

but its not just regional chatter. its immigration chatter too. i think thats what is being hashed out here. I saw a whole bunch of UK & Canadian threads moved today, and was kinda commenting on that.

Yes other topics may end up there but unless we create a million subforums then in some cases some threads will never perfectly fit into a single category.

There is definately some serious consulate threads in MENA today. But seeing how they are so specific to the operation of Casablanca, it is better in the regional forum. Posting this dicussion in the general consulate area would cause a great deal of panic from people in other consulates when it might not be necessary (since casa is so particular in how they handle petitions as a high fraud consulate) IMO.

maybe the subcategories in the General Consulate forum would work, otherwise i think it is better left in the regional discussion area.

yes Sophia, I agree completely (see my post below). I was just thinking more on the subject since someone brought up the topic of people either not wandering down to or up from the Regionals, and all the missed info resulting. I am in no way suggesting moving any of these threads to the primary consulate forum. My question was because I have seen several others moved in the meantime, and questioned it.

I'm going to stand by my original opinion that too much immigration chatter in the Regional Forums is bad for the overall health of VJ.

I agree that some of the consulate issues in MENA can unnecessarily 'scare' other readers. On the other hand, what's the harm in seeing how other folks have more difficult issues on their plate than the reader might?

A little sympathy for each other in this community is something sorely lacking these days. I've only deeply studied the practices of the UK consulate, because that's the one we processed through, but perhaps BECAUSE I joined VJ when there were no Regional Forums, I have an appreciation for the differences of the other consulates. I'm also not as likely to go off half-cocked and give advice to petitioners for other consulates because I know there are others out there with more knowledge than me.

If it were up to me, I would dissolve the Regional Forums entirely. I would move them to Sub-Forums of the Consulate and Embassy forum. I really feel that's the only place they have any purpose as far as an immigration website is concerned.

In the General Discussions area, a forum could then be created with some sort of title like "The World According to Visajourney". Here everybody could gather to discuss cultural differences, travel, etc. EVERYBODY. Not divided by sections of the globe, but all together. In my opinion, it would be more fun and more interesting, and would bring back the 'global friendships' once formed so easily here.