I know the thread you are talking about and, in fact, I have mentioned the same issue here. It isn't a case of being two faced y'know.

I think it took!



I'd be happy to help in any way I can.

And there was no high 5-ing as you put it. It was a valid concern that was addressed, end of story. If you don't like anything we are trying to fix on VJ (as your posts in this thread show), you are free to go elsewhere.

That, and I think it comes off a bit more sincerely if you can try and make each one a little 'unique'. Not EVERYone, mind, because its hard to do that of course - but every now and then, ya know?

I think its great to congratulate people, consolemaster. But I do hate to see a member limit his or her posts to SOLELY congratulations. Spread your wings a bit and find new ways to contribute. The site would probably be a LOT more fun for you that way

But that really isn't what the thread was about - so...onwards and upwards.

/off topic

Me too..you're not in a minority...

If the goal is indeed to improve the site and create/nurture a true community that is worthy of future VJers, then I have a few suggestions that don't necessarily focus on discussion boards if anyone cares to hear.

Obvious Questions
Some/many of the complaint's are related to new people asking the 'obvious' questions.

Tak a hard look at the layout and content of the Guides. Is there something there that can be improved? Perhaps (just a tiny example) Can the Ads be on the right side instead of the left? (does this mask/distract from the content?) What is it that people don't see?

Ask someone who doesn't know anything about the Visa process to navigate the site and tell you how they would get a K1 (or whatever) (No coaching, leave the room) - let them tell you their thoughts when you return..

Posting Whores
I personally don't have an issue with people congratulating others - if you're the OP it's nice to see someone's paying attention. Think its to increase post count? Then let's eliminate that feature altogether - who's ready to commit to that?

Time-line Intensive
It is time-line intensive - people are under pressure - but, there's hope.. things could be added to the My Time-line pop-up page to ease some feelings...maybe a link to that users Embassy page (for example)..Embassy not there? Maybe it should be added. If the common answer to a "How come I'm not NOA1/2 yet?" is 'X' then how can 'X' be introduced?


Just some off-the-top-of-my head thoughts...

If the goal is to simply 'promote' certain individuals to Moderator, who believe they are entitled to it and want to control the message boards, then my suggestions would be much different.

I agree with your post, Karin. I don't know how unique my congratulatory will be, but, just wish there was a way to reset my counts without having to start a new account. Oh well. I'm leaving it as that.

I believe YOUR words were "He has been scolded..... " <--a cyber high five/gloating

And thanks for the invite to leave, but I am a member of the community and have things to say - unless this is an exclusive club...

I knew this topic would get derailed at some point.....

lets get back to topic.....

I was letting them know - in the UK forum, in a UK specific thread, not a global announcement about it. But thanks for checking in on me/us.

Every post you've made on this thread has been a dig at the ones who were dialoguing. I'm asking for some respect here instead of name calling. Not a big deal to do so.

Last point first: the last people to be the right ones to moderate the site are the ones who WANT to moderate the site. The best moderators are those who do it because they know it's a necessary evil and who tread as softly as they can when posting anything, whether 'moderator' content or immigration information, and who rarely trim or lock.

On to your other points: Yes. I agree entirely with the structural/organizational ideas, and indeed they have been alluded to before in this thread in the course of discussion. I don't think there is an issue with what is or isn't needed most - I think improvements are needed overall, and those improvements can readily be achieved and implemented together or not.

This is a very actionable proposal. We can certainly do this and execute a new design based on feedback. Great idea!

I would certainly like to start the process of a cleansweep / review of the guides and FAQ's. I will put in whatever time it takes to reformat and work on the technical side. I simply need the content to be reviewed and comments sent to me. One of the longest complains was that people could not search for things they wanted. The new search tool I added should improve results to the degree that google can work as they power the engine. Initial comments by members is that the new search works well which is great to hear!

Post reporting is generally socially unacceptable here. Please have a look at any of the threads on the topic (there might be a poll too) and you can see people's attitudes about that tool.

It's not being used the way you imagine, except perhaps by a few.

I think I need to socialize the need for it an remind people that reporting is anonymous and that just because something is reported it does not mean I will always agree with the person reporting it.

Am I missing something here? I just spent ages reading through all this. From the above quotes it looks to me like Andy suggested moderation parameters, Tracy said that was what she was suggesting a separate thread for, Cap'n Ewok said "go for it", but then locked the very thread with that final post!!??!!??

I'm confused. Did something change or did Cap'n Ewok not understand what Andy and Tracy suggested.

I must have misunderstood. My goal was for another thread on a different topic.

Fair enough. It kinda read clearly to me, but no worries.
From your last post in the locked thread, you mention non participant moderating. Simple question, who are the non participant mods? How are they available to effectively mod if they aren't participants without someone hitting a report button? Even if someone does hit a report button, isn't it you that gets the notification of that report? If this is the case then surely that means unless you are present on the site there is no moderation. If so, isn't this the very problem we are trying to solve?

Bottom line. It seems logical to me that there are needs for more constant, effective moderation. As it stands, I don't think we are very aware of the presence of the non participant mods, or really see them do any moderating on a level which would improve the site generally as I'm sure everybody wants. N'est-ce pas?

he was referring to another post from someone else....

The only not so nice comment I could have about the new subforum is that it's tiny and I could barely even see it was there. If people can't see it, they'll just keep posting in the main forum.

these are the order of the post in the way they appeared... Captain Ewok was talking about the thing Yodrak mentioned....

Umm, no actually he wasn't.
I quoted the posts in the exact order they were posted, what is more, the main ones were nested, so I couldn't get them out of context.

Besides, The Cap'n already answered by saying he did if fact misunderstand. See his post at the top of this very page.

yeah , he thought TracyTn was talking about the new forum idea that Yordak was talking about....

I have moved the subforums down about 5 pixels from the text above it. I hope it makes the sub-forums stick out more (especially for the new one).

Sorry, but I wasn't referring to Yodrak at all. His posts in this thread were something like 10 pages ago - my memory isn't that good.

My comment came directly from the post of Andy's.

yeah, I know that but Ewok thought that.... Yordak posted right before your discussion about the other thing....

anywho it isn't a big deal I guess...

What's bad is I didn't even remember Yodrak's more recent post!

Well, I'm just gonna say it. So many people have taken so much time to write out some really thoughtful suggestions and observations on the matter. The way I see it, they have been dismissed with what amounts to, "we're not gonna do it that way just 'cuz." All signs point to something fishy going on. Why all the secrecy? I'm reminded of the Debbie Schlussel blog fiasco when we were all just told to not talk about it but were not told why. Maybe it has something to do with the accusations about moderation here that were brought up on the blog.

I must agree that nothing will change, 'because'. I think its sad because I like this place, and it has helped NUMEROUS people navigate immigration territory. But it could be so much better with just a little work and trust in its long standing members.

Oh well. Can't say we didn't try.

Captain Ewok,

Place it right at the top of the list, where it will be hard to miss. My sense is that most people do not look very far down the list of forums when looking for a place to post, which is why the K1 and K3 forums in particular contain questions ranging from before the first meeting to after citizenship - they figure, 'I will be / I am / I was a K1, K1 forum is the place to post' no matter what their topic is.

Call the forum Successes-petition,visa,AOS,EAD, etc

Yodrak

In reality, VJ took a nose-dive when users of the forum lost control of it a couple of years ago, and while there were good and valid reasons why that seemed the best course of action at the time, I don't think this site will ever see resolution to the significant underlying issues, whether structural, organisational or behavioural, unless and until members who have a vested interest in how well it functions have some of that control back.

I have the sense in this thread, and the odd twists it's taken in the second half, that it's like a conversation between two deaf people on the phone!

One thing is for sure, we haven't heard an explanation as to WHY we cannot have member moderators and WHY that idea is dismissed out of hand. What we have seen instead is our moderator picking up the ideas put forward that don't involve any control being passed to members and which, even if they are actually the HARD options to achieve, like rewriting the guides, are going to get actioned, while the EASY option of adding member moderators to bring better control and participation are dismissed as if we are naughty children. Without a reasonable explanation as to why this is happening, I can't but help feel rather insulted - that the time and effort taken to raise genuine issues of concern by myself and a number of others who care about the site and how well it works mean nothing at all and aren't taken seriously or with any respect.

Not to mention that a lack of reasonable explanation only leads to speculation - people tend to think the worst when it appears that something is being swept under the rug. I can't help but think that the reason members can't be moderators is that they will find out what has been going on around here.

The effort to clean up the FAQs now is all smoke and mirrors IMO.

I'm with you on the feeling insulted part, for sure.

Indications would be that there are influences controlling decisions here, but that isn't to say there is anything underhand to be discovered. I suspect the reason no explanation is forthcoming is because in itself, explaining it would cause the same problems that allowing members to control the site would also cause. And while that may sound rather vague and obtuse, if I'm right, then I think I might know what the influences are.

There's a way to test my theory, but I'll hold off on that for a bit!

Unfortunately I had terrible connection problems yesterday. I tried to speak to this several times and just couldn't. So even though the thread has moved on, I still want to comment.

Mainly to say, you can't have it both ways!
I agree in general that 'nasty' comments should be kept to a minimum. That was a chief beef against 'the other group' when people migrated here. I see it more as a style thing, but different styles for different types, that is OK.

WRT the congratsmaster, I sent a friendly, gentle PM early on suggesting the posts were a bit OTT. I got a reply that essentially said 'Whatever. I'm going to keep doing my thing.' OK. Others started posting in threads, still gently, expressing 'enough is enough'. Same sort of reply. Then someone gets more pointed, and they are "bashing"? At what point do we put one person's feelings above the culture of the group?
Sheesh, if I went to someone's beer tasting club (open to the public) and was told it was not good form to go around and toast all 58 members before each sip, I'd probably catch a clue.

So back to 'both ways'.
We're not going to have moderators to encourage/enforce a single, cultural message here.

We're supposedly 'grownups' who do not need moderators anyway, and we can all just do our thing. We all have good judgement, right?

So called self-moderation isn't allowed either, because that's bashing, and we should just let people do what they want, as long as their intentions are good (hoo boy, I can see some interesting fallout from that--oh wait, I DO see it, every day here!).

I'm left stumped.
So it is nasty to refer people to the Guides/FAQ. If/when you do, you might get shouted down because there are mistakes there. So it's back to another round of writing, only to get picked apart if something is forgotten or changed, and yet, WHO is bothering to invest the time in searching the information, looking up links, writing the Guide and getting it posted? Precious few, that's who.
I am now more confused about the purpose of this site. If it is for support, rainbows, cheerleading & kittens, that's fine. JUST SAY SO. If it is going to be providing serious immigration support, TELL PEOPLE HOW TO BEHAVE. If it is to have a comprehensive How To (ie, direction the FAQ suggestions are going), I can see why most sites that provide that service charge for it. Why? Because it is a lot of work! The Guides (IMO) are meant to be GUIDES, not Mapquest. You're supposed to use them to put your case on the right path, not hold your hand all the way through it. If I offer you a link, I expect you to read it because the answer to your question is there from an official source, not just my hot air. That many folks feel even that is too much effort FOR THEIR OWN CASE baffles me.

If it is fun for some to sit here and read mindless speculation about what happens to your precious file of paperwork, rock on. That is driving ME nuts. Expecially when the factual information is out there! There have been several recent magical discoveries of information that several of us have been posting over and over. There just doesn't seem to be a way to reach people other than the forums.
Maybe someone can develop a bot to answer questions here.

And your point, if directed at me rather than in general is.... what exactly?!

So basically the sticking point on this thread is why member moderators are not allowed. Granted if they are not, people would like to know why. I will attempt to provide a degree of insight however I need a few minutes to pound that out .

Meaux - beautifully written & it covered every point I had. Thank you!


Side note: So the drama with consolemaster happens - and he was supposedly scolded. Yet, HE CONTINUES TO POST CONGRATS. Not in pink letters, mind you, but still in all caps, in tons of threads. A newbie has that much of a lack of respect, and mods can't (or won't) control that? WHY?????

I, for one, am looking forward to your reply.

Can you send me a link to where he is still doing this? I warned him that while it is certainly ok to do this when it is appropriate, blindly doing this for no reason would be considered spam.

The first concern in moderation is if the person would be completely objective and fair. This is very difficult to do with members that are already here and have friends. The accusation of bias and favoritism is hard to get beyond unless moderators are very carefully chosen. This was an issue before with a few moderators and would be a potential issue again.

By becoming a moderator you may in some cases take on the liability of certain day to day activities on the site. That liability is something that not everyone is really prepared to take on even though up front it sounds great. Case in point, as being a moderator, while you are still considered a “member” of the site (see TOS definition) you certainly may be perceived (rightfully or not) to represent the websites interests (which again is not the case however other members may think this at first glance). This creates many issues on its own. Becoming a moderator hence then requires a limitation of free and absolute speech where by you must take care as to what you say as some people may mistakenly believe your view points represent the sites. The liability for both the moderator and the site is a tough line to balance.

Creating moderators and verifying their identity is important. As they have a greater amount of features enabled on their account there is a greater risk of at some point possible abuse of those powers that may harm the site. Having a moderator’s real identity and contact information helps to reduce any likelihood that abuse could occur and holds that person more responsible. Gathering this information would require each member to submit their personal details (on paper signed) which is likely not something everyone is comfortable with.

One last but important point; In the past member moderators of this site in a few occasions turned out to be members that had secondary motives for gaining moderator status that were not in the best interest of the site. This clearly is something that is not desirable to ever see happen again.



Personally I believe that I can give pseudo moderation status to everyone in a social networking style way that would/should benefit everyone. Clearly when a topic is bad there will be a group consensus of that fact. I have some tools I can deploy that would allow regular members to submit anonymously a ‘bury’ command on topics. If a large number of unrelated members also ‘bury’ the topic than it will get locked pending admin review (at which time it will remain locked or reopened). There would also be abuse checks to prevent groups of friends from ganging up on people. If that ever did happen though (group of friends ganging up) those members involved would be suspended for a period of time for abuse. I kind of think this balances the best of both worlds in preventing threads from going crazy (gives greater speed to locking down bad threads and retains admin oversight when it is reviewed).

Regarding the issue of getting a better sense of a greater community back, I think that it will never be like before simply because there are far more people with far broader personalities. It may be a good step to appoint a special group of members with specific abilities (not termed moderators) that could help promote a better sense of community. They would have to be respected members. They would certainly have an icon next to their name that states something that indicates their status. They would not again be a moderator or have the ability to ban people, etc, but honestly we get so few bans that it does not take more than myself to review people daily (or on the spot if I am online) if they have done something that requires being banned.

I should add that one of the justifications of needing member moderators is that the attitude on the site is not in line with the best interests of the sites goals. Having moderator status at best gives the impression that if members that are warned by the moderators do not "shape up" they may get suspended. This may be valid but I would think that more senior members would be able to also do the same thing with well phrased replies. In the extreme case that this does not work then admin/moderation would be needed.

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...c=61621&hl=

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...c=61573&hl=

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...c=61534&hl=

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...c=61547&hl=

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...c=61526&hl=

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...c=61546&hl=

and this one where he admits he shouldn't be doing it BUT DOES IT ANYHOW:
http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...c=61511&hl=

Captain Ewok ~ Actually, that makes sense to me. Thankyou for explaining it.

a lot of people post congrats on this site.... not sure why consolemaster is getting picked on...

I do see him contributing other comments too...

I beleive those are from before I warned them... Anything from today?

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...sult_type=posts

that is the search results from Consolemaster's latest posts.... yeah there are a couple of congrats in thier but he posts a lot of other stuff too....

One was today but I thought you warned him earlier yesterday, nevermind.

Like someone said 10-15 pages ago, congrats are ok in "your class" of USCIS/Embassy processing. Beyond that, there is not much point.

I used to congratulate many in K-1, but they were all in my "class". Now I rarely post there at all, with the exception of occasional advice.

huh?? so you are not allowed to post congrats out of your class?? does the same go with advice??

I don't think he's being "picked on". He is the current example.